Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

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drpmjhess said:
Gospel citation, please.
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John 21:25- “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Not all that he did was written down - nor all that he said. Besides which it’s ludicrously obvious that the NT, which entirely omits any discussion of 18 years of His life and condenses the last three so dreadfully, can’t possibly be a complete record in any way.
 
LilyM said:
There’s a consistent theme here - reproduction IS a big deal to God and to Jesus (who is God), children (and plenty of them) ARE what God (and Jesus who is God) desires. The OT tells us so and Jesus tells us so in actions if not words.
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A point of reference: is it only Catholics who use “artificial” contraception who are going to hell? Or do contracepting Protestants, Jews, Muslim, Hindus and Buddhists as well? How big is Hell?
 
LilyM said:
John 21:25- “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”/QUOTE]

So you’re saying you don’t have a Gospel citation for me?
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drpmjhess said:
A point of reference: is it only Catholics who use “artificial” contraception who are going to hell? Or do contracepting Protestants, Jews, Muslim, Hindus and Buddhists as well? How big is Hell?
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It’s big enough that you and I can very easily end up there - ‘broad is the way that leads to destruction’.

The fate of the souls of all people as individuals is ultimately a matter between God and themselves, and is dependent on the state of their knowledge, among other things, and the genuineness of their desire to know and follow God and do His will above all else.
 
drpmjhess said:
LilyM;3779308:
John 21:25- “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”/QUOTE]

So you’re saying you don’t have a Gospel citation for me?
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Are you living in some parallel universe where John isn’t a Gospel or something? The quote is TELLING you that you - we - don’t have a complete record of everything Jesus did and said. No record, no knowledge.
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LilyM said:
drpmjhess;3779315:
Are you living in some parallel universe where John isn’t a Gospel or something? The quote is TELLING you that you - we - don’t
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have a complete record of everything Jesus did and said. No record, no knowledge.

LOL. I thought the exact same thing when I read Drpmjhess’s response to your correct quote from the Gospel of John.

I think someone needs to be re catechised quick if she wants to continue playing at being Catholic- and I’m talking about being taught the basics such as the four Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.

Ave Maria
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Wow talk about opening a can o’worms!

I don’t like the open dissent that I see around me. Not one bit. But I can’t change anyone but myself.

I sometimes think why don’t they just leave, etc. etc. but I have begun seeing things a little differently lately. I suppose dissent was always sitting in the pews. Look what happened during the exile from Egypt - the way everyone complained after escaping from Pharoah. Moses got really mad at everyone and God did punish them for it too!

Many times over people have complained about God and His laws and they’ve suffered for it. I guess I could look at my neighbor and feel a little sad for them, because I believe their eternal salvation is truely in jeopardy. But that is just my opinion. God alone will judge them and me when it is over.

As for these times, yes, I would say folks are getting bolder and bolder, but they may have felt the way they’ve felt for years and years and have only recently chosen to “come out of the closet” about what they really believe. And the truth is that not everyone in the pews believes the same things I do and not everyone who says “Amen” to the Creed each Sunday and walks up to receive Communion should be doing so. They’ve just become more vocal and open about their problems. This too can lead to conversion because a problem can’t be solved as long as it remains hidden.

I pray to be more loving to my neighbor and don’t you know, God must have a sense of humor, because I usually bump smack dab into someone who will challenge me to be more loving! Careful what you pray for you might just get it! :rolleyes:

Peace,

Gail
 
GailMac said:
I pray to be more loving to my neighbor and don’t you know, God must have a sense of humor, because I usually bump smack dab into someone who will challenge me to be more loving! Careful what you pray for you might just get it!
Gail
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Nicely put, Gail. I’ll remember that at both Masses tomorrow.

Petrus
 
9Choirs said:
It is pointless to argue in defence of doing something which God himself has declared objectively wrong through the Church he gave us. It is pointless to argue in defence of doing something which God has declared will always be immoral and never subject to change.

I challenged God.

Guess who won?
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Wonderful point. I’ve had the same kind of experience – it changed my life. I hope others will see the truth of this also.
 
LilyM said:
drpmjhess;3779315:
Are you living in some parallel universe where John isn’t a Gospel or something? The quote is TELLING you that you - we - don’t
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have a complete record of everything Jesus did and said. No record, no knowledge.

Well, I think the mistake here is to demand a scriptural quote for everything that Jesus said. You claimed that he never said anything about artificial contraception. It’s enough to say that you don’t know that.

Jesus still speaks today – He is alive. He spoke at Paray-le-Monial. He speaks also through the Magisterium of the Church.
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reggieM said:
That is a very good thing. But I also think you’re over-estimating the dissent among the faithful.
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Could be. I’ve just never run into anyone who has made opposition to so-called “artificial” contraception into a personal crusade. My parish tends to be more accepting about a lot of things. That goes for language too: most people even omit the “men” from “for us men and for our salvation,” and no one makes a stink about it like they do elsewhere. That must be a damnable offense for a lot of people on CAF.
 
GailMac said:
And the truth is that not everyone in the pews believes the same things I do and not everyone who says “Amen” to the Creed each Sunday and walks up to receive Communion should be doing so. They’ve just become more vocal and open about their problems. This too can lead to conversion because a problem can’t be solved as long as it remains hidden.
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It’s true that this is the case in parishes (I’m blessed to have a parish where there are virtually zero dissenters).

The problem, as I see it, is with the shepherds. The people do not want to be directed and taught – and especially they don’t want to be corrected.

So, many of our priests lack the courage to tell the truth. They’re afraid of “losing people”. But they’re not afraid of the eternal consequences that people face with sacrilegous Communions.

This is a problem with the formation of our priests (the post 1970s generation). The older liberals want to soften things – make it easier, so they won’'t correct people (it “creates waves”). The younger ones, often, haven’t been given a strong enough foundation – they don’t have the backbone to correct their flock and give a strong spiritual direction for them.

If they did – dissenters would either convert or leave. I think most would convert. They just need encouragement and they need to be challenged with the fact that God’s laws are at stake.
 
drpmjhess said:
LilyM;3779338:
Exactly!
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Despite this, Catholics have the blessing which is the infallible teaching Magisterium to guide us towards orthodoxy. It is this, amongst many other things, which sets Catholics apart from Protestants who rely on their subjective opinions for scriptural discernment.

The Magisterium has taught us that the use of contraception constitutes a grave sin.

Now those who don’t understand the teaching (which many of us don’t) need to study why such doctrine has been put in place and orientate our thoughts so that they are in line with what the Church teaches (Thick is the line between publicly expressed dissent and heresy, and seeking to understand teaching through questioning).

Those who overlook such teachings simply commit grave sins and their arguments, although convincing to human minds, will be like** sand in the wind come judgement day when they stand be fore God.**

Ave Maria
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drpmjhess said:
Could be. I’ve just never run into anyone who has made opposition to so-called “artificial” contraception into a personal crusade. My parish tends to be more accepting about a lot of things. That goes for language too: most people even omit the “men” from “for us men and for our salvation,” and no one makes a stink about it like they do elsewhere. That must be a damnable offense for a lot of people on CAF.
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Well, I would never want to tamper with the sacred liturgy myself – given that it touches on divine matters and can carry enormous responsibilities. But I think that kind of linguistic change is one of those trendy-feminist things that is very important to some people, and means nothing to the vast majority.

But to the other point – I think you were referring to your entire diocese and not just your parish. Do you think your whole diocese has that same level of dissent as you find in your parish?
 
reggieM said:
LilyM;3779338:
Well, I think the mistake here is to demand a scriptural quote for everything that Jesus said. You claimed that he never said anything about artificial contraception. It’s enough to say that you don’t know that.

Jesus still speaks today – He is alive. He spoke at Paray-le-Monial. He speaks also through the Magisterium of the Church.
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Good point.

You know, Jesus never said anything about paedophilia, did he? So by drpmjhess’s logic…

Ave Maria
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