Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

[9Choirs]

Right – an all-male magisterium than can never get pregnant!

Ahhh… of course, its all falling into place now. The angry butch femininazi tirades are sooo 1960’s. Move on already.

P.S- This is coming from a woman by the way- just in case you think of accusing me of chauvinism.

Ave Maria

 

[LilyM]

Right – an all-male magisterium than can never get pregnant!

… but who has sisters, mothers, nieces, cousins and maiden aunts who can and do (but of course they never see, hear or talk to their female relatives, God forbid ).

Not to mention the parishioners whose confessions they hear, whose babies they baptise, whose family crises they become part of, whose annulments they handle and who come to them regularly with comment about sexuality and church teachings on it.

Heck, my priest probably knows more about reproduction than I do as a single never-married celibate female, even though I CAN get pregnant.

 

[Hiromu]

Our beautiful Church, established by Jesus and protected by the Holy Spirit, has answered everyone of these questions posed in this thread. And what the Church teaches isn’t easy.
.
Surrender yourself to Him and ask the Blessed Mother for her loving aid. You will then know the Truth - the God Man Jesus Christ and his beautiful Kingdom that He proclaimed almost 2000 years ago.
.
St. Joseph, pray for us.
St. Michael, be our protector against the wickedness and snares of the devil.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Yes you are undoubtedly right.I have tried dozens of times to find some common ground but alas I’m not met with but a couple of people willing to respond with anything other than pure condemnation. A guy on another thread asked about a lifestyle he was lving and asked if it were too secular. Nobody cared aobut his good works, they universally glommed onto the fact that he mentioned his “partner” and that means homosexuality and everything was completely ignored to tell him 8 times that he was “living in sin.”

And a priest who was abusing children should be admonished for his sin, not lauded for his works with the poor.

I wish you could understand this.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Jesus pulled no punches Spiritmeadow. I know you don’t believe His words(based on your church comments) but remember the millstone and the sea. You walk others down your path of unbelief and you will be held accountable.

As I’ve mentioned, I struggle mightly but choose to obey. Not because I’m smart, but because I can listen. I urge you to listen.

Please listen!!

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

If it is enough that Mother Church announces it as true, then so be it. I cannot give over such power to any institution, and I don’t personally believe that God appreciates such actions. You cannot place limits on scholarship. YOu cannot restrict it to some areas and not others. the Church fully expects and condones such work and while she from time to time disagrees with some conclusions, She doesn’t restrict for the most part such investigation. Moreover, what has been taught has changed over time. JPII certainly has a different take on Genesis that his predecessors have had. What is considered heretical at one point is often tomorrows orthodoxy. You claim that the church has taught the same for ever. I would suggest she has refined a good deal of teaching over time and in effect changed it carefully and subtly to reflect new learning. She certainly did so with regard to Galileo. Protestants believe in their 35.000 different sects that they too have the correct interpretation of the scripture. It has been a pleasure none the less in discussing the matter with you. Take care.

If God instituted an earthly Church why would He not be pleased with us following its revealed laws set to help us order our hearts like His?. Is that not the reasonable action of a loving Father who respects a child’s freedom but wants what is best for him?

In respect to change, we are in the midst of salvation history. The Church never taught error in faith and morals and the changes are a deepening of our understanding. The Church and the faithfuls understanding can deepen by gift of the Spirit and in cooperation with the Spirit. Thats great and a fantastic use of scholarship to aid in the work of understanding the Truth…

You very politely told me to bug off. Okay, but your logical fallacy needs to be persistently refuted or a passing reader would be misled into the erroneous and dangerous conclusion that scholarship determines what is divinely inspired. Exactly what is the litmus test? How is it provable?

It cannot be proved through human means alone because inspiration is divine and God is Spirit. Your argument becomes non-sensical. I don’t limit scholarship, but I put it in context. To not put it in context makes scholarship a misused tool, like choosing to mow the lawn with a spoon.

“Sola Scholarship” is no faith at all and denies the Good Shepherd. I am not asking you to close your mind, but to dive into the scholarship within the context of the revealed Truth of the Spirit in the defined truths of the Church. Faith opens the eyes to see while acknowleging scholarship with right reason and in humility in love of the Lord can bring us closer to Him. This is freedom to assent and discover the Truth. How can anyone discover deeper truths while denying Truth?

You take care too, but I’ll continue to reply to claims that “sola scholarship” is a means to determine what is or is not inspired independent of the teaching office of the Church or ever not in union with Her.

God Bless.

 

[drpmjhess]

But I think that kind of linguistic change is one of those trendy-feminist things that is very important to some people, and means nothing to the vast majority.

But to the other point – I think you were referring to your entire diocese and not just your parish. Do you think your whole diocese has that same level of dissent as you find in your parish?

(1) It’s not trendy – it’s a matter of individual practice. Some say “men”; many don’t. No one makes a big deal of it.

(2) In monitoring the diocesan newspaper I don’t notice much discussion of dissent. Some letters to the editor are “conservative”; some “liberal.” Most of the discussion centers on other things: national and international news, commentaries on the week’s lectionary readings, discussion of social outreach, etc.

 

[JenniferMoon]

So many of these discussions would unnecessary if Catholics would only read the Catechism!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

A guy on another thread asked about a lifestyle he was lving and asked if it were too secular. Nobody cared aobut his good works, they universally glommed onto the fact that he mentioned his “partner” and that means homosexuality and everything was completely ignored to tell him 8 times that he was “living in sin.” You see, real discussion is not possible except for a segment here.

What else is there to discuss when someone is living without sanctifying grace and on the road to hell? It just doesn’t make any sense from the Catholic perspective. All that matters in life is to obtain and increase sanctifying grace for ourselves and others.

 

[Auntie_M]

Nobody can read the heart of another. Their “outward” appearance may not be what “ours” are but who are we to say they are going to hell, **I think **that is why Jesus is coming back “to judge the living and the dead”

We are taught (from Jesus’s word)…“be ye fishers of men”. He failed to teach us how to “clean those fish”. I really think that He is in the “fish cleaning business”.

I am soooo glad…I hate to clean smelley fish.

 

[9Choirs]

Nobody can read the heart of another. Their “outward” appearance may not be what “ours” are but who are we to say they are going to hell, **I think **that is why Jesus is coming back “to judge the living and the dead”

We are taught (from Jesus’s word)…“be ye fishers of men”. He failed to teach us how to “clean those fish”. I really think that He is in the “fish cleaning business”.

I am soooo glad…I hate to clean smelley fish.

Judging a person and judging anothers actions are separate things.

If one is fornicating or engaging in homosexual acts, then they are committing a grave sin. If their intent and knowledge is unquestionable (and only God can discern this) then the destination of their soul is inevitable… Such a person shouldn’t be receiving the Body of Christ, as John’s Gospel states, it is a great insult to Jesus and is deemed a sacrilege

Remember that narrow is the gate to heaven and intentionally committing grave sin in the hope that God will discern your intent and knowledge on committing the act as questionable and that he will take into consideration the other ‘fluffy wuffy good works’ you’ve done, is a mighty big gamble to take.

Contrary to what has often been implied by some dissenters, good works such as helping out in a Parish and feeding the poor do not mitigate the effects of mortal sin (damnation); only confession, repentance and penance does.

Ave Maria

 

[Auntie_M]

Judging a person and judging anothers actions are separate things.

If one is fornicating or engaging in homosexual acts, then they are committing a grave sin. If their intent and knowledge is unquestionable (and only God can discern this) then the destination of their soul is inevitable… Such a person shouldn’t be receiving the Body of Christ, as John’s Gospel states, it is a great insult to Jesus and is deemed a sacrilege

Remember that narrow is the gate to heaven and intentionally committing grave sin in the hope that God will discern your intent and knowledge on committing the act as questionable and that he will take into consideration the other ‘fluffy wuffy good works’ you’ve done, is a mighty big gamble to take.

Contrary to what has often been implied by some dissenters, good works such as helping out in a Parish and feeding the poor do not mitigate the effects of mortal sin (damnation); only confession, repentance and penance does.

Ave Maria

You are very right. the gate is narrow. We cannot be sure if that person had gone to confession, and did penance or not. Look at the outrage in the “priest v. the little boys”, We all were totally shocked and angry. But are we the ones to judge, still… no.
Those priest may have gone to confession over and over again. And each time, they were probably trully sorry for their deeds.
Sometimes, it is a sickness that some people just cannot overcome. But the same is still true…
We are not to judge, we can be outraged, mad, blah blah blah, but we cannot condemn.
(even though sometimes, darnit, I wish we could:shrug: )

Remember the parable of the workers receiving their pay. Those that had worked all day got the same as those that only worked an hour or so. I think what this is referring to are those (deathbed) confessions. (and yes, sometimes that just doesn’t seem fair, but that God’s way, not ours)

 

[Ender]

The condemnation here is just endless. Do you never stop feeling the need to judge others?

I certainly don’t feel the need to ignore error. I have, however, limited myself to comments about the validity of your position. If you consider that a judgment it is certainly one I feel qualified to make as I am merely repeating what the Church teaches.

I am not ordering advising praising or approving of any behavior.

I am mystified by this objection. You have put forth an opinion that you believe to be true as well as your arguments to support it. Whether we intend to or not our opinions can influence others and your particular position, that each of us is free to decide right and wrong for himself, is opposed to Catholic teaching and is in fact harmful to anyone who believes it.

I simply reject your right to condemn, correct, and order others not to receive the sacraments and to leave the church if they don’t agree with you.

I have neither condemned you nor said anything at all about receiving the sacraments or of leaving the Church. As for correcting you, surely I have that right. After all: I believe that I do and isn’t that your criterion?

To blindly adhere to any teaching even when it rankles the heart is against God IMO. We cannot give over this to any body be it church or person.

Since it is God’s teaching that you reject I would hold little confidence that he shares this position.

Ender

 

[SpiritMeadow]

One solution would be for ultraconservatives unhappy with the state of the American Catholic Church to leave and form their own church under the jurisdiction of African bishops, as some conservative Episcopalians have done, This might not be the optimal solution, but then at least they wouldn’t have to put up with dissenters!

LOL…well that would be fair since we are apparently the majority. But since the Church was essentially born with dissention, I think she can continue to weather the storm.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Apparently, you think that the use of contraception will not affect the rate of population growth.

That thought never crossed my mind. As usual, you completely miss my point.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

If you look at the history of schism of unorthodox Catholics, it is always the dissidents who break their Communion with Rome i.e. Call for action (excommunicated liberal dissident group) and SSPX (conservative dissident group whose bishops are excommunicated)

Unfortunately for you, liberal dissidents are now leaving the Church in droves and this is not my opinion alone but a growing number of people, that Catholic orthodoxy (not conservatism or liberalism) is making a strong come back in particular with the youth (such as myself) who are thirsting for tradition and orthodoxy. I think it will be dissidents such as yourself who will be finding an alternative Church quite shortly when you realise that playing at being Catholic gets boring after a while. If or when you plan to leave, I do recommend you create your own Church in your own image, considering that the Episcopal Church is on verge of (more) schism and many Episcopal and Anglican priests are joining the Catholic Church and are bringing a reborn orthodox vision with them.

Ave Maria

The saddest part of your post is the utter glee you exude at the prospect (as you see it of course) of the utter disintegration of the American Church.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Except that God said ‘be fruitful and multiply’ - it was his very first command to humankind, so obviously very important. To the extent of requiring widows to marry their brothers-in-law if they’d not had children with the first husband so that they would not remain widows and unfruitful!

Not to mention punishing Onan for spilling his seed, the Psalm praising men who have plenty of children, and goodness only knows what other biblical passages about reproduction. Then there are the numerous instances of Jesus blessing children as well as raising them from the dead.

There’s a consistent theme here - reproduction IS a big deal to God and to Jesus (who is God), children (and plenty of them) ARE what God (and Jesus who is God) desires. The OT tells us so and Jesus tells us so in actions if not words.

He also said not to eat pork, but you don’t follow that do you? Can you not see the efficacy of encouraging procreation to a peoplw who were vastly outnumbered at the time it was spoken of by the patriarchs? Explain why when you don’t follow it, the NT supercedes the OT, but when you desire to follow it, it doesn’t?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

LilyM;3779338:

LOL. I thought the exact same thing when I read Drpmjhess’s response to your correct quote from the Gospel

of John.

I think someone needs to be re catechised quick if she wants to continue playing at being Catholic- and I’m talking about being taught the basics such as the four Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.

Ave Maria

You may not agree with Petrus or with me, but that does not give you license to be so uncharitable as to tell HIM he is "playing at being Catholic. Is part of orthodoxy extreme rudeness? Be civil please and adopt some form of Christian charity in your remarks.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Could be. I’ve just never run into anyone who has made opposition to so-called “artificial” contraception into a personal crusade. My parish tends to be more accepting about a lot of things. That goes for language too: most people even omit the “men” from “for us men and for our salvation,” and no one makes a stink about it like they do elsewhere. That must be a damnable offense for a lot of people on CAF.

No kidding? about the “for us men” …that was true of my first parish in Mich. and also mine today in Iowa.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Ahhh… of course, its all falling into place now. The angry butch femininazi tirades are sooo 1960’s. Move on already.

P.S- This is coming from a woman by the way- just in case you think of accusing me of chauvinism.

Ave Maria

More’s the pity that a self-proclaimed woman would refer to other women in such a demeaning and awful way.