Dissenters: Why do you call yourself a Catholic?

[9Choirs]

The saddest part of your post is the utter glee you exude at the prospect (as you see it of course) of the utter disintegration of the American Church.

That’s quite ironic considering that you yourself express utter joy at your comrade’s comment about conservatives leaving the Church. (see below)
SpiritMeadow;3782111**:

LOL

…well that would be fair since we are apparently the majority. But since the Church was essentially born with dissention, I think she can continue to weather the storm.

In order for the Church to return to orthodoxy, a good purging may be required. Fortunately, as I’ve said before liberal dissent is dying out with the oldies. Conservatives, which consist mainly of fringe youth, are too leaving and joining the likes of the SSPX. Orthodoxy is being revived with the young generation, which is clearly what you don’t want to hear.

Ave Maria

 

[SpiritMeadow]

And a priest who was abusing children should be admonished for his sin, not lauded for his works with the poor.

I wish you could understand this.

You are conflating a crime with something that is a not a crime. Your point is invalid if there was one. I wish you could understand this. No one here has been granted the duty to explain to people that they are in sin from YOUR POINT OF VIEW. If you give them them benefit of normal intelligence, they are fully aware of Church teaching, and need not admonishment by anyone who is not in a position of authority. You merely interefer in the priest/penitent relationship to the detriment of it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Jesus pulled no punches Spiritmeadow. I know you don’t believe His words(based on your church comments) but remember the millstone and the sea. You walk others down your path of unbelief and you will be held accountable.

As I’ve mentioned, I struggle mightly but choose to obey. Not because I’m smart, but because I can listen. I urge you to listen.

Please listen!!

I view as estremely uncharitible your statement that i don’t believe in the words of Jesus. How dare you assume anything about my faith and belief in our Lord. The comments regarding the institution of a Church do NOT give you license to make such sweeping ugly claims. And how dare you claim that I counsel others to agree with me. I have done nothing more than state my opinion and told others the basic way to research IF they are so motivated. Are you afraid of seeking truth?

For someone who claims to know so little you mind is amazing closed and hardened.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

In order for Church’s to return to orthodoxy, a good purging may be required. Fortunately, as I’ve said before liberal dissent is dying out with the oldies. Conservatives, which consist mainly of fringe youth, are too leaving and joining the likes of the SSPX. Orthodoxy is being revived with the young generation, which is clearly what you don’t want to hear.

Ave Maria

Things come in cycles. If you read up on those who talk “liberal dissent” in the Church, they were quite “orthodox” when they came in the 1950’s. Life experiences have changed them when they saw that a strict following of the rules does not work in real life. It sucks the spirituality and often the humanity out of the Church.

You have to look beyond the book and to the person, most are good people trying to make their way day to day and fire and brimstone only beats them down even more instead of helping them on their lifelong spiritual journey.

What I also see from “orthodoxy” (well this present movement) is those in the Vatican and many Bishops/Archbishops is they let their offices go to their heads. Many have let the title supersede the responsibilities of leading the people. Leadership comes in many forms, in today’s modern age you need to be creditable using the terms of today, which means reaching out with a compassionate side, and not think of a “myself against the world” approach with an aura of a type of self-perceucation, which is very unproductive.

The smaller Church you advocate is like tossing the mustard seeds onto hard rock where they will wither and die.

 

[9Choirs]

9Choirs;3779368:

You may not agree with Petrus or with me, but that does not give you license to be so uncharitable as to tell HIM he is "playing at being Catholic. Is part of orthodoxy extreme rudeness? Be civil please and adopt some form of Christian charity in your remarks.

John is one of the four Gospels, is it not? Drpmjhess claimed otherwise. Opinions don’t come into it. She is wrong. Full stop.

Not accepting the main doctrines of the Church but proclaiming to be Catholic= playing at being Catholic.

Your advice on etiquette has been noted. Perhaps you and your comrade need to apply it to yourselves however.

More’s the pity that a self-proclaimed woman would refer to other women in such a demeaning and awful way.

There is no pity as I, a woman, was referring to a female who clearly has an issue embracing her femininity but has intense penis envy. Describing her as a Catholic and a woman is…questionable…

Ave Maria

 

[SpiritMeadow]

If God instituted an earthly Church why would He not be pleased with us following its revealed laws set to help us order our hearts like His?. Is that not the reasonable action of a loving Father who respects a child’s freedom but wants what is best for him?

But you see I am not persuaded he did institute an earthly Church. I believe the Catholic Church is the legitimate offspring of the teaching ministry of the Apostles, that arose naturally. Actually in reading the ECF, I am reinforced in that belief.

You very politely told me to bug off. Okay, but your logical fallacy needs to be persistently refuted or a passing reader would be misled into the erroneous and dangerous conclusion that scholarship determines what is divinely inspired. Exactly what is the litmus test? How is it provable?

Surely it was not my intent to do so, I thought you were done with the conversation by your ending. I don’t agree that scholarship determines that at all. I have no quarrel with the fact that issues of faith and morality are inspired. I find it impossible to ever know what that might be. I can say with some authority what it is not here and there, but I doubt it will ever be resolved. I don’t see any logical fallacy,and in no case would I urge anyone to go on with their life because of what I said. It requires every thinking person to research these matters themselves if they are so motivated.

It cannot be proved through human means alone because inspiration is divine and God is Spirit. Your argument becomes non-sensical. I don’t limit scholarship, but I put it in context. To not put it in context makes scholarship a misused tool, like choosing to mow the lawn with a spoon.

“Sola Scholarship” is no faith at all and denies the Good Shepherd. I am not asking you to close your mind, but to dive into the scholarship within the context of the revealed Truth of the Spirit in the defined truths of the Church. Faith opens the eyes to see while acknowleging scholarship with right reason and in humility in love of the Lord can bring us closer to Him. This is freedom to assent and discover the Truth. How can anyone discover deeper truths while denying Truth?

What apologists tend to do, IMO is allow scholarship as long as it impinges on something they desire to accept at truth. Then the same means of addressing the text is somehow wrong. That is simply dishonest scholarship IMO.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What else is there to discuss when someone is living without sanctifying grace and on the road to hell? It just doesn’t make any sense from the Catholic perspective. All that matters in life is to obtain and increase sanctifying grace for ourselves and others.

Thanks you make the point excellently. You define anyone you decide is a sinner as being so totally stupid that they don’t already know the Church teaching. He didn’t ask for advice about his relationship, he asked about their lifestyle in other respects. This utter fascination with admonishing others is cruel, unnecessary, and directly counter to what Jesus teaches us. It’s well, reactionary Protestant in nature. It’s embarrassing to me as a Catholic to see people acting so crudely and rudely.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Judging a person and judging anothers actions are separate things.

If one is fornicating or engaging in homosexual acts, then they are committing a grave sin. If their intent and knowledge is unquestionable (and only God can discern this) then the destination of their soul is inevitable… Such a person shouldn’t be receiving the Body of Christ, as John’s Gospel states, it is a great insult to Jesus and is deemed a sacrilege

Remember that narrow is the gate to heaven and intentionally committing grave sin in the hope that God will discern your intent and knowledge on committing the act as questionable and that he will take into consideration the other ‘fluffy wuffy good works’ you’ve done, is a mighty big gamble to take.

Contrary to what has often been implied by some dissenters, good works such as helping out in a Parish and feeding the poor do not mitigate the effects of mortal sin (damnation); only confession, repentance and penance does.

Ave Maria

I don’t know as it’s your professional expertise to define what does and does not damn someone irrevocably before God. I thought that was up to God. But assuming all your statements are correct, it is simply not your place to be telling anyone of their sinful nature. Jesus said so quite clearly and you demean the person you accuse by so telling. Do you honestly beleive that any homosexual in this country is unaware of how the Catholic and other right wing Protestant sects believe on this issue? thus your point it left to be nothing more than mean spirited wagging a finger as a “better than you” type person. That is what it appears. It is repulsive and embarrassing to everyone.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I certainly don’t feel the need to ignore error. I have, however, limited myself to comments about the validity of your position. If you consider that a judgment it is certainly one I feel qualified to make as I am merely repeating what the Church teaches.

See it’s really simple to me. My parents brought me up to mind my own business. There are people whose duty it is to deal with such issues, namely priests and other clergy and religious. Do you ever stop to think that you may be doing irrepparable harm to an ongoing religous/penitent relationship? Do you assume everyone who is sinful by your standards is so limited intellectually that they need you to tell them? If it is only for because you have a “right” to object, then you are satifying a personal agenda at the expense of others. Jesus thought this issue so important that he spoke quite eloquently of it twice in no uncertain terms.

I am mystified by this objection. You have put forth an opinion that you believe to be true as well as your arguments to support it. Whether we intend to or not our opinions can influence others and your particular position, that each of us is free to decide right and wrong for himself, is opposed to Catholic teaching and is in fact harmful to anyone who believes it.

What I have done is state my opinion. I have encouraged no one to agree with me, rather on the contrary I have invited anyone and everyone to do what they should, which is to research areas where they find themselves at odds with Church teaching. If it leads them to find the Church correct, they have my deepest blessings. I would hope that that happens all the time. You believe that daring to investigate is dangerous, yet the church provides a mechanism for this and has done so throughout its history. At one time Aquinas was considered heretical. He is no more to be sure.

I have neither condemned you nor said anything at all about receiving the sacraments or of leaving the Church. As for correcting you, surely I have that right. After all: I believe that I do and isn’t that your criterion?

Forgive me, I tend to use You in the group sense. It may not apply at all to you. You have the right to disagree and state your reasons why. your claim that you are correcting me is presumptious.

Since it is God’s teaching that you reject I would hold little confidence that he shares this position.

Ender

It is your opinion that it is God’s teaching. I don’t presume to conclude with any assurity that God shares my opinion. I am made in his image, not the other way around. Augustine addressed this quite clearly when he alluded to the fact that whaever we think we know about God is precisely what he is not.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

That’s quite ironic considering that you yourself express utter joy at your comrade’s comment about conservatives leaving the Church. (see below)

Sadly you misunderstood. I was taking the joke along and then said quite specifically that the church could well withstand your “self defined orthodoxy” and survive nicely without the need to purge as you so happily espouse.

In order for the Church to return to orthodoxy, a good purging may be required. Fortunately, as I’ve said before liberal dissent is dying out with the oldies. Conservatives, which consist mainly of fringe youth, are too leaving and joining the likes of the SSPX. Orthodoxy is being revived with the young generation, which is clearly what you don’t want to hear.

Ave Maria

That is simply utter nonsense and all the polling suggests otherwise. If this is so, then why oh why are you all decrying secularism so much? The church is going to be all yours! Age will temper your enthusiasm for the inquisition.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

SpiritMeadow;3782146:

John is one of the four Gospels, is it not? Drpmjhess claimed otherwise. Opinions don’t come into it. She is wrong. Full stop.

Not accepting the main doctrines of the Church but proclaiming to be Catholic= playing at being Catholic.

Your advice on etiquette has been noted. Perhaps you and your comrade need to apply it to yourselves however.

I can but feel bad for you. Petrus has a doctorate in theology. You obviously misunderstood something. He assuredly knows that John is one of the Gospels.

Your choice of words is offensive. Obviously you may wish to continue using them, but of course it rather lessens the impact of your words. I am unaware that you have been appointed as some arbiter of who is Catholic enough. Do you advocate some test?

Comrade? is that another of your not so subtle attempts to cast aspersions instead of present facts. ?

There is no pity as I, a woman, was referring to a female who clearly has an issue embracing her femininity but has intense penis envy. Describing her as a Catholic and a woman is…questionable…

If you are unable to see the uncharitable nature of your remarks then there is no point is there. HUMAN being need not be addressed in such a matter. I would assume that any Christian would know that.

 

[9Choirs]

T:Snip:

Heard it all before and it has been refuted by others numerous times.

The smaller Church you advocate is like tossing the mustard seeds onto hard rock where they will wither and die.

Mathew 17: 19
Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. 20 But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.

Mathew 21:21

21 And Jesus answering, said to them: Amen, I say to you, if you shall have faith, and stagger not, not only this of the fig tree shall you do, but also if you shall say to this mountain, Take up and cast thyself into the sea, it shall be done.

Looks like numbers aren’t all that counts if all it takes is one person with enough faith to move a mountain. Quality supersedes quantity.

I don’t know as it’s your professional expertise to define what does and does not damn someone irrevocably before God. I thought that was up to God. But assuming all your statements are correct, it is simply not your place to be telling anyone of their sinful nature.

Instructing the ignorant is a spiritual work of mercy; Catholics who don’t just call themselves Catholic but actually adhere to the Church’s teaching actually accept that. And I was not defining what was sinful but simply explaining what the **Magisterium of the Catholic Church **has taught as sinful for the last 2000 years ago. But of course, you don’t recognise her authority although you still strangely enough refer to yourself as Catholic

Jesus said so quite clearly and you demean the person you accuse by so telling

Jesus spoke out against judging a person, and not judging anothers actions. If so, the court system would be intrinsically immoral.

“The act of rape is atrocious” is different from stating that 'rapists are atrocious people".

Ave Maria

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Looks like numbers aren’t all that counts if all it takes is one person with enough faith to move a mountain. Quality supersedes quantity.

Instructing the ignorant is a spiritual work of mercy; Catholics who don’t just call themselves Catholic but actually adhere to the Church’s teaching actually accept that. And I was not defining what was sinful but simply explaining what the **Magisterium of the Catholic Church **has taught as sinful for the last 2000 years ago. But of course, you don’t recognise her authority although you still strangely enough refer to yourself as Catholic

Jesus spoke out against judging a person, and not judging anothers actions. If so, the court system would be intrinsically immoral.

Ave Maria

You are aware that the Magisterium is made up of fallible men? They make mistakes like all of us, and the Vatican is the Vatican, and not everything that applies in Rome can be easily applied in the rest of the diverse world. Acknowledging fallibility in the system is not degrading it, but makes the Church stronger if it is acknowledged at all levels.

Are you putting different levels of “quality” of spirituality? That seems pretty harsh. Your interpretation appears to say that “quality” is made up of a narrow, chosen few who thrive on a rigid interpretation?

 

[LilyM]

He also said not to eat pork, but you don’t follow that do you? Can you not see the efficacy of encouraging procreation to a peoplw who were vastly outnumbered at the time it was spoken of by the patriarchs? Explain why when you don’t follow it, the NT supercedes the OT, but when you desire to follow it, it doesn’t?

The matter has nothing to do with my or anyone’s desiring to eat pork or otherwise. Everything to do with the fact that the NT (God’s word) spells out IN BLACK AND WHITE that we are no longer bound by Jewish dietary rules, whereas it doesn’t say anything about the command to be fruitful and multiply being optional.

You must know that many faithful Catholics, clergy among them, obviously would rather it WAS optional, and treat it as though it were, but unfortunately wishing doesn’t make it so.

 

[iamrefreshed]

You are conflating a crime with something that is a not a crime. Your point is invalid if there was one. I wish you could understand this. No one here has been granted the duty to explain to people that they are in sin from YOUR POINT OF VIEW. If you give them them benefit of normal intelligence, they are fully aware of Church teaching, and need not admonishment by anyone who is not in a position of authority. You merely interefer in the priest/penitent relationship to the detriment of it.

You should try reading your own posts… one after the other. Your arrogance is unchallenged on this forum.

Congratulations you win… or rather, you lose. So sad.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I view as estremely uncharitible your statement that i don’t believe in the words of Jesus. How dare you assume anything about my faith and belief in our Lord. The comments regarding the institution of a Church do NOT give you license to make such sweeping ugly claims. And how dare you claim that I counsel others to agree with me. I have done nothing more than state my opinion and told others the basic way to research IF they are so motivated. Are you afraid of seeking truth?

For someone who claims to know so little you mind is amazing closed and hardened.

Your arrogance is amazing!

You deny Jesus built His church upon Peter and you attempt to chastize me as ‘uncharitable’ for defending scripture.

Well, I will tell you the Devil would use the word ‘uncharitable’ to spread his word. Your plan is very clear.

 

[drpmjhess]

No kidding? about the “for us men” …that was true of my first parish in Mich. and also mine today in Iowa.

SpiritMeadow, I did an informal audial check today in church. The bass to my left omitted “men” from “for us men and for our salvation,” as did the nun singing tenor to my right. The younger celebrant omits it, while the older one includes it; today’s homilist (a brilliant Dominican with a doctorate in philosophical theology) is always careful to employ inclusive language as he has a special devotion to Mary.

By the way, what’s this flap about John’s not being one of the four gospels? That’s a new one to me.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus

 

[drpmjhess]

You should try reading your own posts… one after the other. Your arrogance is unchallenged on this forum.

Are you sure you understand what arrogance is? SpiritMeadow strikes me as a kind, wise, and gentle person, which I cannot say about the more conservative posters on this thread.

 

[LilyM]

SpiritMeadow, I did an informal audial check today in church. The bass to my left omitted “men” from “for us men and for our salvation,” as did the nun singing tenor to my right. The younger celebrant omits it, while the older one includes it; today’s homilist (a brilliant Dominican with a doctorate in philosophical theology) is always careful to employ inclusive language as he has a special devotion to Mary.

By the way, what’s this flap about John’s not being one of the four gospels? That’s a new one to me.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus

That would be about post #501:

John 21:25- “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

drpmjhess:

So you’re saying you don’t have a Gospel citation for me?

which means you’re saying my cite from John isn’t a Gospel citation, therefore you’re saying John isn’t a Gospel.

 

[drpmjhess]

I quoted John’s gospel for you, you reproduced the quote and then said it wasn’t a gospel quotation.

What posting number?