Dissidents now paying for ads against the POPE

[Armenian_cpa]

And you think these people really care what the Church teaches? They don’t seen to care what the Church says about fornication not sure what difference it would make if the Church okayed condoms.

The real attack on Humanae Vitae has less to do with AIDS in Africa and more to do with selfish Catholics in the Western world.

M

You hit the nail right on the head!!!

Bravo

 

[Armenian_cpa]

But wags their finger afterwards? Where is the acceptance of reality and the compassion in that?

Well if one followed the church teachings then would not all these issues decrease dramatically??

It boils down to this. In today’s world people want their immoral lifestyles validated. So I guess they can feel better?

 

[catharina]

That has nothing to do with sexual contraception…it has to do with a culture obsessed with pornography. It is a pornographic generation.

Internet pornography is a plague, and has nothing to do with contraception or sexual education.

These youths do not engage in sexual practices because they were told condoms can prevent the transmission of STD’s, rather they are immersed in a generation that is bombarded with sexual images from pop culture and they are quite literally being sexualized by the media and culture.

A person should look into the home for the parents to step up to the plate.

Aren’t you way over your limit as a one-time-poster? Why are you here? It’s not to hear Catholic answers and that’s for certain. Rather than check in and mock others who love God and support moral absolutes, perhaps you could do more praying and less posting? (Just a thought.)

 

[wanner47]

One Time- You still haven’t addressed the point that rapists and adulterers probably don’t care what the Church says about condoms. You seem to think that what the Catholic Church says is important to these folks.

LOL, that reminds me of this:

"*With its ban on condoms the Church has caused the death of millions of Catholics and others in areas dominated by Catholic missionaries, in Africa and right across the world." -- Polly Toynbee, UK Guardian*

How does papal teaching on marriage increase the spread of AIDS, as so many of our betters would have us believe? Simple: it’s only natural – in the view of Toynbees – that people who habitually put their souls in jeopardy by mortally sinful sex are going to be seized in mediis rebus by scruples and – in obedience to Vatican directives – put their lives at risk as well, i.e., by refusing a condom. The conversation transcribed below (recorded in a tin shack in Soweto at the behest of the Rockefeller Foundation) concisely and clearly illustrates the chain of reasoning that so worries public health experts and makes them so critical of the Catholic Church:

Amos: Andrew darling, as a fellow unlettered sub-Saharan African labourer with limited socio-cultural horizons who is tangled in the throes of ignoble passion, would you consider joining me in an act of unnatural vice before dinner?

Andy: Only too pleased, my dear chap. You realize of course this contravenes every canon of human decency?

Amos: Quite. Would you prefer to bat or bowl?

Andy: The latter, thank you for asking. I say, you don't mind my donning a latex prophylactic device -- having first checked the expiry date and inspected the integrity of the wrapper -- do you? I entertained some Namibian truckers last week who were indefatigably sportifs, and, to be truthful, I don't feel entirely good about my auto-immune system.

Amos: Andrew, how could you even suggest such a thing! You know perfectly well condom use is reprobated by Casti Connubii. I mean it's one thing to damn oneself or expose oneself to a painful death by infection, and quite another to disobey the Holy See. One has one's standards, after all.

Andy: Indeed, indeed! In the transports of lust I momentarily forgot myself, my dear Amos, please believe me. Not to be a bore about it, but you won't mention this prophylactic business to my wife, will you? She's a Free Church Presbyterian and quite impossibly pedantic about adhering to the Vatican line in these matters.

Amos: Wouldn't dream of it, old boy.

If you make the effort strenuously enough, you can eventually come to take it seriously, in the manner of Lewis Carroll’s famous character who coached herself to believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast. Here too, I admit, it helps to be a White Queen.

ETA:

This quote from a commenter to the above is also worth posting:

Millions of people around the world are not dying of AIDS because of the Catholic Church banning the use of condoms. They are dying because they are not following Catholic (and Christian) Church teachings on morality, chastity, virtue, the marital covenant, and that pesky little Sixth Commandment that says, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” And since condoms inevitably fail at one time or another, it’s probably safer playing Russian Roulette than having sex with someone with AIDS.

 

[LittleOne1]

I have an idea. Lets compare the rate of out of wedlock pregnancies, STD’s, abortion rates of people who wear condoms vs people who practice NFP… hmmm looks like we know who wins.
Guess what Ontime; many countries continue to ignore environemental regulations and push out carcinogens and other chemicals into the air that destroy the ozone. Does the UN or others give the same attitude: well they are going to do it anyway so lets just buy people gas masks? No I think they continue to challenge them to eliminate green house gases. So why anything less when it comes to sex? (Abstinence and condom teaching is mutually exclusive discussion: you cannot promote both).
They do so because since they have left God and any sense of true right or wrong, they have made themselves gods and pleasure their ultimate end. SO why promote anything that hinders immediate gratification. Lets not forget the emotional destruction to families, and society as a whole that premarital sex causes because we accept the lies that whatever is consented between two adults cannot harm you.
The world has sadly become bitter and disillusioned with the relativist lifestyle yet they still prefer fast food diet of instant gratification because they are not challenged by society around them (schools, parents, friends, movies, music, the gov, ect) to live a higher ideal and obtain the gourmet meal of saving oneself for marriage.
SO the facts state NFP users have less out of wedlock pregnancies, lower STD rates, much lower divorce, and happier marriages, so why do you continue to demand your McD’s chicken nuggets?

 

[onetimeposter]

One Time- You still haven’t addressed the point that rapists and adulterers probably don’t care what the Church says about condoms. You seem to think that what the Catholic Church says is important to these folks.

Females living in Africa, could themselves use a female condom, to protect themselves from STD’s and pregnancy while being raped.

The Church will not permit that use…

Do you have a response?

 

[onetimeposter]

Well if one followed the church teachings then would not all these issues decrease dramatically??

It boils down to this. In today’s world people want their immoral lifestyles validated. So I guess they can feel better?

Women live in a different world in Africa. You are applying your decadent North American standards to the poorest continent on the planet.

Women stay at home, while their husbands go off and contract HIV…they come home, they pass it on to their wife…both parents die, children are left as orphans.

Women are raped and infected with HIV.

Women are forced into prostitution and contract HIV.

Please don’t suggest that the HIV epidemic in Africa is all about lust…it is not. Many women have no choice but to get infected from their partners, from rape or from having no options but to prostitute themselves in order to feed their fatherless children.

 

[onetimeposter]

I have an idea. Lets compare the rate of out of wedlock pregnancies, STD’s, abortion rates of people who wear condoms vs people who practice NFP… hmmm looks like we know who wins.
Guess what Ontime; many countries continue to ignore environemental regulations and push out carcinogens and other chemicals into the air that destroy the ozone. Does the UN or others give the same attitude: well they are going to do it anyway so lets just buy people gas masks? No I think they continue to challenge them to eliminate green house gases. So why anything less when it comes to sex? (Abstinence and condom teaching is mutually exclusive discussion: you cannot promote both).
They do so because since they have left God and any sense of true right or wrong, they have made themselves gods and pleasure their ultimate end. SO why promote anything that hinders immediate gratification. Lets not forget the emotional destruction to families, and society as a whole that premarital sex causes because we accept the lies that whatever is consented between two adults cannot harm you.
The world has sadly become bitter and disillusioned with the relativist lifestyle yet they still prefer fast food diet of instant gratification because they are not challenged by society around them (schools, parents, friends, movies, music, the gov, ect) to live a higher ideal and obtain the gourmet meal of saving oneself for marriage.
SO the facts state NFP users have less out of wedlock pregnancies, lower STD rates, much lower divorce, and happier marriages, so why do you continue to demand your McD’s chicken nuggets?

Now that your done cutting down my opinion. What is the solution to stop the HIV epidemic in Africa.

Please also include your solutions to protect the women who are victims of rape, forced into prostitution and who are infected from their unfaithful husbands.
**
( Telling men during a civil war not to rape women is not a solution…female condoms, or Anti-HIV spermicide gels is an example of a solution, as the control rests within the female victims hands…but apparently the rape victim is not allowed to use a prophylactic to protect herself.)**

Before you write your response, I’ll remind you that Christianity is already the fastest growing faith in Africa…yet this epidemic continues unabated.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

According to this “Fact Sheet for Public Health Personnel: Male Latex Condoms and Sexually Transmitted Diseases” a collaborative effort of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and the United States Agency for International Development (USAID), evaluation of the published evidence establishing the effectiveness of latex male condoms in preventing STDs, including HIV:

The surest way to avoid transmission of sexually transmitted diseases is to abstain from sexual intercourse, or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and you know is uninfected.

For persons whose sexual behaviors place them at risk for STDs, correct and consistent use of the male latex condom ***can reduce the risk of ***STD transmission. However, no protective method is 100 percent effective, and condom use cannot guarantee absolute protection against any STD. Furthermore, condoms lubricated with ***spermicides are no more effective ***than other lubricated condoms in protecting against the transmission of HIV and other STDs.

{emphasis mine}

So why aren’t these “dissidents” publishing ads directed to the NIH, CDC, and USAID since they’re basically saying the same thing as the Church: “The surest way to avoid transmission of sexually transmitted diseases is to abstain from sexual intercourse, or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and you know is uninfected”

Condoms offer false hope. It’s a strawman that ignores the real problems that seem too overwhelming.

The real problem is poverty and violence. The real problem is genocidal warfare against families, women & children.

The Church has been directing her efforts at these root causes.

 

[onetimeposter]

The real problem is poverty and violence. The real problem is genocidal warfare against families, women & children.

The Church has been directing her efforts at these root causes.

A well informed post.

But do these women not deserve protection until such time that the situation improves?

What excuse is there not to give a woman a female condom to wear, when her husband demands sex with her and infects her with HIV that he picked up from a prostitute. The woman gets pregnant, has no drugs to protect the baby and then gives birth to an HIV infected baby.

This is not a straw man argument, this actually happens to women…we are dealing with nations with an HIV rate that is 38% of the population!

Not the future, not the big picture…individual women, one person. What is there to protect that one lone woman in Africa from her own husband today.?

Not in 2 years when he becomes catechized and repents…but tomorrow, when he has sex with her and gives her HIV

What is there for that lone woman until things ( if they ever) improve?

 

[wanner47]

A well informed post.

But do these women not deserve protection until such time that the situation improves?

What excuse is there not to give a woman a female condom to wear, when her husband demands sex with her and infects her with HIV that he picked up from a prostitute. The woman gets pregnant, has no drugs to protect the baby and then gives birth to an HIV infected baby.

This is not a straw man argument, this actually happens to women…we are dealing with nations with an HIV rate that is 38% of the population!

Not the future, not the big picture…individual women, one person. What is there to protect that one lone woman in Africa from her own husband today.?

Not in 2 years when he becomes catechized and repents…but tomorrow, when he has sex with her and gives her Aids.

What is there for that lone woman until things ( if they ever) improve?

And you think this woman’s HIV-infected, rapist husband will be kind enough to use a condom or allow her the time put one on prior to the act of rape?

 

[onetimeposter]

And you think this woman’s HIV-infected, rapist husband will be kind enough to use a condom or allow her the time put one on prior to the act of rape?

**
A female prophylactic that she wears inside and or spermicides that she can spray inside of herself that will kill HIV and sperms.**

All solely intended to prevent getting the HIV she knows that her husband likely is carrying.

I remind you, we are talking about countries with HIV infection rates as high as 38%.

Why the RCC will not allow women the right to protect themselves from a slow death by HIV is beyond me.

 

[wanner47]

**
A female prophylactic that she wears inside and or spermicides that she can spray inside of herself that will kill HIV and sperms.**

All solely intended to prevent getting the HIV she knows that her husband likely is carrying.

I remind you, we are talking about countries with HIV infection rates as high as 38%.

Why the RCC will not allow women the right to protect themselves from a slow death by HIV is beyond me.

What makes you think that her rapist husband won’t remove a female condom, should he find one, or destroy any spermicide he finds?

Do you think he would allow her to insert spermicide into herself prior to the act of rape? Afterwards, it would probably be too late and would be virtually ineffective.

 

[onetimeposter]

What makes you think that her rapist husband won’t remove a female condom, should he find one, or destroy any spermicide he finds?

Do you think he would allow her to insert spermicide into herself prior to the act of rape? Afterwards, it would probably be too late and would be virtually ineffective.

Ahhh, now I understand. So the position of the RCC is not that these items are immoral and intrinsically evil, it is simply a matter of logistics and practicality.

Here I thought the Church was taking a moral position, but you have set me straight.

What’s your solution to protect the women, not in 5 years time with a change in culture…but next week.

 

[wanner47]

Ahhh, now I understand. So the position of the RCC is not that these items are immoral and intrinsically evil, it is simply a matter of logistics and practicality.

Here I thought the Church was taking a moral position, but you have set me straight.

What’s your solution to protect the women, not in 5 years time with a change in culture…but next week.

That’s quite the impressive straw man.

Why do you want the Church to take a stance that, by your own admission (i.e., you cannot provide any counter to my claims that neither condoms nor spermicide will help a woman who is facing a man hell-bent on rape) is not only illogical, but a moral evil?

The “logic” of the RCC is that it is never permissible to do evil so that good may result. That has been the Church’s consistent teaching for hundreds of thousands of years.

The Church does not take the stance that She does against condoms because of the logistics, but for the reason stated above. However, you seem convinced that the problems will be solved by providing African women with spermicide and condoms.

My question is – if that’s the case, why hasn’t some non-Catholic organization done it already? And if they have, why hasn’t it worked?

The answer is that few groups care about the Africans except the Church, so who are you to tell Her how to go about solving the problem if you’re not doing anything to help solve it yourself?

 

[Oscarthecat]

That’s quite the impressive straw man.

My question is – if that’s the case, why hasn’t some non-Catholic organization done it already? And if they have, why hasn’t it worked?

Non-Catholic groups are doing it already-in fact some groups claiming to be Catholic are doing it as well. The UN sends billions of condoms to Africa, and so do many industrialized nations, including the US.

As to what they would say about why it hasn’t worked? It is called “liberal orthodoxy” - the premise that those who disagree with them are the very reason why their ideas don’t work. That way, when their solutions turn out to be wrong, they can just throw up their hands, claim that the Church’s refusal to condone condoms is sabotaging their otherwise perfect plan, and make appeals for more money from their supporters to counteract the “catastrophic” damage being done by those who dare to disagree with them.

The brilliant thing about liberal orthodoxy is that it takes credit for success no matter what, and it absolutely thrives on failure!

AIDS decreasing in Africa? Must be because the condoms are working- time to get the UN to agree to spend 20% more to buy more condoms…

AIDS rising in Africa? Shout that the opposition is sabotaging our efforts!!! Declare a state of emergency!!! Get the UN to spend 50% more on condoms!!!

 

[RachelsAlumni]

What excuse is there not to give a woman a female condom to wear, when her husband demands sex with her and infects her with HIV that he picked up from a prostitute. The woman gets pregnant, has no drugs to protect the baby and then gives birth to an HIV infected baby…This is not a straw man argument, this actually happens to women…we are dealing with nations with an HIV rate that is 38% of the population!

It is the idea that distributing condoms is the solution to the AIDS epidemic that is the Strawman. It is the false notion that condoms and spermicides prevent AIDS, when they don’t. It is the idea that Humanae Vitae, the Church’s teaching on chastity and contraception needs to be changed that is the Strawman. The Church’s teaching is good & true and even backed up by science (Centers for Disease Control, etc.).

What can I say about a man who intentionally infect his wife with AIDS? He certainly is not acting in any kind of charity towards her. I know if I had AIDS I would have to be celibate, married or not. Millions of people are celibate. As an unmarried woman I am and have been for a number of years and plan to continue to be until such time God gifts me with a conjugal union. It’s really no big deal unless I choose to make it so.

Also, their are always cases where the local pastor does allow for a dispensation to protect the life & health of the mother.

For example, my own mother was given such a dispensation to take birth control hormones as hormone replacement therapy when she was in Menopause because she had a serious medical condition that required it. She wasn’t taking the hormones to prevent pregnancy, she was taking the hormones to treat a medical condition that if left untreated could result in her death. Mom didn’t have to petition the Vatican to change Humana Vitae. She got a note from her Physician and gave it to her Parish Priest who in turn granted her a dispensation.

The idea that the Church must change her teachings is nothing more than a strawman argument, an argument that misuses and abuses the AIDS epidemic and the real suffering of people afflicted for a misguided political cause.

 

[onetimeposter]

That’s quite the impressive straw man.

Why do you want the Church to take a stance that, by your own admission (i.e., you cannot provide any counter to my claims that neither condoms nor spermicide will help a woman who is facing a man hell-bent on rape) is not only illogical, but a moral evil?

The “logic” of the RCC is that it is never permissible to do evil so that good may result. That has been the Church’s consistent teaching for hundreds of thousands of years.

The Church does not take the stance that She does against condoms because of the logistics, but for the reason stated above. However, you seem convinced that the problems will be solved by providing African women with spermicide and condoms.

My question is – if that’s the case, why hasn’t some non-Catholic organization done it already? And if they have, why hasn’t it worked?

The answer is that few groups care about the Africans except the Church, so who are you to tell Her how to go about solving the problem if you’re not doing anything to help solve it yourself?

Impressive response and equally impressive how you completely avoided answering my question…I’m also tired of seeing the word strawman.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Women live in a different world in Africa. You are applying your decadent North American standards to the poorest continent on the planet.

So…promoting abstinence and chastity are decadent?

Your views are completely upside down.

Women stay at home, while their husbands go off and contract HIV…they come home, they pass it on to their wife…both parents die, children are left as orphans.

Women are raped and infected with HIV.

Women are forced into prostitution and contract HIV.

Please don’t suggest that the HIV epidemic in Africa is all about lust…it is not. Many women have no choice but to get infected from their partners, from rape or from having no options but to prostitute themselves in order to feed their fatherless children.

And your solution to all of that is…the condom.

Tell me again how condoms will empower these men to stop having sex with multiple partners, to stop raping women, and to stop cheating on their spouses?

 

[onetimeposter]

Ok, I can’t help but notice that a lot of people are completely avoiding this real life question. Perhaps it places people outside of their comfort zone of believing the magersterium is always right.

Why does a woman in Africa, who suspects that her husband has HIV… and when her husband demands ( and does get) sex from her, why does the Church believe that she does not have the right to protect herself from HIV infection by using **spermicides that kill HIV or female prophylactics?
**
I don’t want to hear about strawmen, I don’t want a big long rant that doesn’t answer the question…I don’t want to hear about how condoms aren’t the answer, I’m not asking about condoms, only about spermicides that kill HIV and female prophylactics…give me an answer to the question and let’s see if it makes sense or if it could work.