Dissidents now paying for ads against the POPE

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So…promoting abstinence and chastity are decadent?

Your views are completely upside down.

And your solution to all of that is…the condom.

**👍 **

Tell me again how condoms will empower these men to stop having sex with multiple partners, to stop raping women, and to stop cheating on their spouses?
Tell me again why women don’t have the right to use spermicides that kill HIV and female prophylactics.

The best argument someone has come up with is that the rape victims and the wives of HIV infected husbands just don’t have enough time to employ the devices. ( something tells me that that is not the position of the Church.
 
Impressive response and equally impressive how you completely avoided answering my question…I’m also tired of seeing the word strawman. 😛
Hello. I am open to opinions from everyone on this, because I am not sure that what I am going to say is truly the way it is in religions, especially the Protestant religions. After all, what do I know, I was raised Catholic and am truly ignorant of many beliefs of Protestant churches.

First of all onetimeposter, I don’t really think there is an answer to your question. That the Church does help poor nations is true. That what the Church offers as practical material answers sometimes leaves one saying, Huh? But that is the way it is.

In my Catholic upbringing, I was taught, or at least got the idea, that one should not be concerned with material aspects of the world, but that our rewards for sufferings here on earth would be gained in heaven. That the more we offered our sufferings to God for others, for the evil in the world, the greater our heavenly rewards would be. God would take care of everything and all we had to do was pray and sacrifice. Because of this, it is easier for the clergy of the Catholic Church to remain focused on what is essentially good or what is evil. And the prevention of life through the use of artificial means is against the commands of God to create life. It is a complex problem for which I have no answer.

Now as I understand Protestantism, at least in the beginnings of White Anglos Saxon religions, one’s affintiy with God could be see in how many earthly rewards one could obtain. The wealthier one was, the more that person was loved by God. Hence, the work ethic of yesterday which, I think, has turned into the materialism of today. Some of this materialism is not all bad, ie. help for third world nations of a more practical kind than the Catholic Church, in its truths, cannot offer. Talking about the poor Aftican woman whose husband has HIV, of course abstinance is not an answer for her, but what would be an answer from the Catholic Church? No practical answer. The Catholic Church is about the mystical and always has been and always will be.

I am finding it is much more difficult to be Catholic than Protestant. Protestants have no restrictions on helping people, they can provide condoms, spermicides etc. and other practical means to help one’s life here on earth to be a bit easier. They can practice birth control, many believe it is okay to abort babies because of many reasons. After all, one is being “Christian” in doing this, isn’t one?

These are two different dichotomies which cause a constant pull and tension between Protestants and Catholics. I am not saying all Protestants did and do have this foundation of materialism, or belief, but I think the early Protestant churches, especially here in the states laid the foundation for that.

So in the end, at the end of our lives, which will be determined the greater act. The mystical, or the practical? Only true saints who live their lives only in and for God never have doubts that God is the true goal. About us lesser beings, I don’t know. All we can do is try and ask for God’s guidance. If we do this, surely we will know our purpose here.🙂

Sorry I couldn’t give you a more difinitive answer.
 
Ok, I can’t help but notice that a lot of people are completely avoiding this real life question. Perhaps it places people outside of their comfort zone of believing the magersterium is always right.

Why does a woman in Africa, who suspects that her husband has HIV… and when her husband demands ( and does get) sex from her, why does the Church believe that she does not have the right to protect herself from HIV infection by using **spermicides that kill HIV or female prophylactics?
**
I don’t want to hear about strawmen, I don’t want a big long rant that doesn’t answer the question…I don’t want to hear about how condoms aren’t the answer, I’m not asking about condoms, only about spermicides that kill HIV and female prophylactics…give me an answer to the question and let’s see if it makes sense or if it could work.
If I understand your question correctly, you are asking “Why does the Church believe that she does not have the right to protect herself from HIV by using spermicidals and/or female prophylactics.”

You are begging the question.
Furthermore, your question is comprised of two inaccurate claims.

The first is that the Church does not teach that a person has the right to protect himself or herself from harm.

The second is that a woman can protect herself from HIV by using the methods you outlines above.

The Church clearly teaches that women do have the right to protect themselves from HIV- but the Church recognizes that the means you outlined do not provide protection from HIV.

On top of that, your solution does nothing to raise the people of Africa up from the cultural and moral declines that has resulted in the unspeakably high incidence of rape and sexual promiscuity, of which the HIV/AIDS crisis is only a symptom.
 
Ok, I can’t help but notice that a lot of people are completely avoiding this real life question.
People aren’t avoiding your question. You’re ignoring the answers you’ve been given.
Why does a woman in Africa, who suspects that her husband has HIV… and when her husband demands ( and does get) sex from her, why does the Church believe that she does not have the right to protect herself from HIV infection by using **spermicides that kill HIV or female prophylactics?
**
This is a false dilemna and false conclusion based on misinformation.

In fact, spermicidals have been found by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) to possibly even ***increase a woman’s risk ***for HIV:
Most contraceptives do not protect against transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) (1), and the use of some contraceptives containing nonoxynol-9 (N-9) might increase the risk for HIV sexual transmission. Three randomized, controlled trials of the use of N-9 contraceptives by commercial sex workers (CSWs) in Africa failed to demonstrate any protection against HIV infection (2–4); one trial showed an increased risk (3). cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5118a1.htm
and the World Health Organization (WHO):
…a recent report from the World Health Organization (WHO) concluded that spermicides containing N-9 do not protect against gonorrhoea and chlamydia.13A recently published cohort study found no evidence of N-9 protection against HIV,14 as was also the case in two controlled trials on this subject. One trial found no significant protection but a higher incidence of genital ulcers in the N-9 group compared with the control group,15 and **another trial found increased HIV infections in the N-9 group **compared with the control group,phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/epiu-aepi/epi_update_may_04/16_e.html
  1. dispensations from a local priest are available on a case by case basis without any need for change to Humanae Vitae. The bottom line is that the decision whether to use them lies with the woman and not with the Church. It is between her conscience and God. The Church is not in a position to recommend choosing sin especially over and above what is right & true & good. The Church is in a position to offer reconciliation for those who are driven to acts the Church considers sinful. We all have free will and have varying degress of culpability for those acts.
  2. spermicides have not been conclusively shown to kill HIV in real life situations outside the laboratory. They offer a false hope and can possibly even place the woman more at risk for contracting AIDS than if she had not used them. It’s like an ostrich sticking it’s head in a hole, only thinking it’s protected.
  3. giving people false hope and lying to them leading them to believe they can have safe sex by using barrier methods and/or spermicidals puts them more at risk than if we told them the truth, that the only way to guarantee their safety is abstinance.
  4. If a woman’s husband who is infected with HIV is going to rape her, she needs protection from rape & violence. If he has such disregard for her life and her safety what makes you think he’s going to allow her to excuse herself to the bathroom to put in her barrier & spermicidal (which as I’ve shown offer false hope of protection to begin with).
Abstinance is the only 100% proven method. If a woman is in danger of being fatally raped by her husband or gangs that is a poverty/violence issue that needs to be addressed rather than giving false hope.
 
If I understand your question correctly, you are asking “Why does the Church believe that she does not have the right to protect herself from HIV by using spermicidals and/or female prophylactics.”

You are begging the question.
Furthermore, your question is comprised of two inaccurate claims.

The first is that the Church does not teach that a person has the right to protect himself or herself from harm.

The second is that a woman can protect herself from HIV by using the methods you outlines above.

The Church clearly teaches that women do have the right to protect themselves from HIV- but the Church recognizes that the means you outlined do not provide protection from HIV.

On top of that, your solution does nothing to raise the people of Africa up from the cultural and moral declines that has resulted in the unspeakably high incidence of rape and sexual promiscuity, of which the HIV/AIDS crisis is only a symptom.
So, how will this woman protect herself tomorrow night, not 4 generations from now…but tomorrow?
 
People aren’t avoiding your question…
Although I don’t agree entirely with your view point, you certainly did make some good points.

Long term solutions are best, they are social, economical and cultural barriers in the way. It will take a lot of time to improve the lives of many people in Africa.

See, I don’t know everything…I’ve learned something new…

your right about nonoxynol-9, but there are new microbicides that are being tested all over the world and are showing promising signs of being very effective. You can read about them here.

who.int/hiv/topics/microbicides/microbicides/en/

If these microbicides pass muster, I maintain that the smart and right thing to do would be to give these products to women, until Africa as a whole is stable.
 
So, how will this woman protect herself tomorrow night, not 4 generations from now…but tomorrow?
So, if a woman came to you and told you she was going to be raped tomorrow night, your response would be to hand her a condom and tell her there’s a good chance that it might keep her from getting AIDS from her rapists?

Is that the answer you think she’s looking for?
 
If these microbicides pass muster, I maintain that the smart and right thing to do would be to give these products to women, until Africa as a whole is stable.
I do appreciate your concern for the welfare of women & children and I do share that concern. Although we may have different approaches the goal is still the same. I do agree with you that “the right thing to do would be to give these products to women, until Africa as a whole is stable” IF these Microbicides do not have spermicidal activity (contraceptive effect).

from the article you linked:
Microbicides may or may not have spermicidal activity (contraceptive effect). At present, an effective microbicide is not available.
I can assume that if the microbicides are not spermicidal (contraceptive) then there would not be a problem for a faithful Catholic to use them, and the Church could be expected to support their proper use.

But that’s neither here nor there since “at present, an effective microbicide is not available”

So, in the meantime I have to ask you the same question, “how will this woman protect herself tomorrow night, not 4 generations from now…but tomorrow?”

As for an answer just look at what is being accomplished in India:
The Catholic Church is the single largest non-governmental HIV and AIDS care provider in India, with more than 2000 beds in dedicated centres, alongside those offered in general hospitals.
According to UNAIDS, India has the largest number of HIV-infected people with an estimated 5.7 million cases, more than South Africa’s 5.6 million cases. NACO, however, puts the figure at 5.2 million HIV cases in India. ekklesia.co.uk/node/5068
…combating the HIV and AIDS problem could not have been accomplished by targeting the disease alone.
Anand says that the problem is also a cyclic “developmental crisis” that sees women and young girls turn to the sex trade when faced with the fallout of ethnic violence, famine, and natural and man-made disasters. With the help of CRS and other programs in the region, these women are empowered and offered training on community-based disaster preparedness and emergency response initiatives.
As of July 2006, the program had reached some 173,126 people through a host of projects, including counseling, training advocacy workers, community sensitization, registering adults and their children for care, treatment of opportunistic infections, home visits, prevention, and education via schools, books and brochures.
 
Non-Catholic groups are doing it already-in fact some groups claiming to be Catholic are doing it as well. The UN sends billions of condoms to Africa, and so do many industrialized nations, including the US.

As to what they would say about why it hasn’t worked? It is called “liberal orthodoxy” - the premise that those who disagree with them are the very reason why their ideas don’t work. That way, when their solutions turn out to be wrong, they can just throw up their hands, claim that the Church’s refusal to condone condoms is sabotaging their otherwise perfect plan, and make appeals for more money from their supporters to counteract the “catastrophic” damage being done by those who dare to disagree with them.

The brilliant thing about liberal orthodoxy is that it takes credit for success no matter what, and it absolutely thrives on failure!

AIDS decreasing in Africa? Must be because the condoms are working- time to get the UN to agree to spend 20% more to buy more condoms…

AIDS rising in Africa? Shout that the opposition is sabotaging our efforts!!! Declare a state of emergency!!! Get the UN to spend 50% more on condoms!!!
Perhaps we could save the politics of divisiveness and hate for a seperate discussion. Certainly, this one would be more useful if you had some mastery of the facts.

The core problem is poverty and practices. How many condoms one sends or doesn’t send is irrelevant if the condoms don’t get used. And, in the hardest hit parts of Africa, they don’t. There are cultural obstacles, logistical obstacles, and huge amounts of ignorance.

There is no doubt that condoms help prevent the spread of STD’s, including AIDS. We have plenty of reserach and evidence in public health from all over the world, including the US. But again, when condom use is 35-40 times higher among US Catholics than working prostitutes in parts of Africa, even the dimmest of bulbs should see that there is a problem.

Remember, we are talking about a part of the world where infant and child mortality for things like small pox, influenza, etc. is still staggering. So there is a huge culture stigma against inhibiting fertility. There also isn’t much of a information infrastructure, so there is a lot of fear, mistrust, and rumor. When you are poor and your nation’s president tells you that there is no AIDs problem, it is a homosexual disease, the the condoms that foreigners give you are coated with drugs to make you sterile, what would you believe? (If you are shaking your head, think of some of the nonsense that gets spouted on talk radio as ‘fact’ and readily repeated here - and that is a population that could spend 10 seconds on Google weeding out the bulk of the nonsense.)

No aid worker that I know in Africa, Catholic, non-Catholic, or even wholly secular, thinks that condoms are the ‘answer’. But virtually everyone who has seen the misery and suffering first hand will (at least privately) acknowledge that safer sex practices must be part of the approach. Consider the turnaround in Zimbabwe. There is a shift toward monagomy which, combined with safer sex practices for those in the traditional practice of multiple relationships, has helped make a huge dent in the HIV rate. Rwanda, which has the highest condom usage rate, also has the lowest HIV rate in the region (still a staggering 3%).

What I find interesting, with all the moral grandstanding, is that few here seem to realize that there are other approaches. Antiretroviral drugs can seriously cut into the spread of HIV to women whose male partner’s are infected. They also significantly descrease the incidents of HIV infected children. This is a licid intervention. My wife and I spend a lot of money in this area for several reasons. One, to help stop a horible epidemic. Two, it is an expensive approach (both the drugs, and the training and medical infrastructure to get them into use), so people offering it needs the money. And, three, because the infrastructure needed, things like clinics, local access to some modern technology, potable water supplies, etc.also help address some of the root causes.

Think about it. AIDshas fundementally changed the way we live here. Think of all the rubber gloves we now see. Think of how we teach CPR. Think of rules in youth sports about open cuts! And our infection rate is nothing compared to what is occuring in parts of Africa. Still, as horrible as AIDs is, it still claims fewer lives each year in the region than malaria, malnutrition, and contaminated water.

Imagine, the epidemic that swallowed $15B US dollars without much of a dent, still pales compared to the death and suffering for lack of basic Christian obligations we can find in Luke and Matthew.

So perhaps we need to think more about the Gospels (from the Greek for “Good News”, as in spreading the Good News to the poor), and a little less of US political conservatism, which generally teaches that the poor and sick are poor and sick because they are lazy, instead of being hard working ‘good people’… :rolleyes:
 
If a married couple follows the words of Christ then it would be impossible to get a STD (except in cases of rape or medical mishap).
  1. They would have waited till marriage to have sex.
  2. They would be faithful.
Onetime, have you ever thought that maybe STD’s are a result of people not following God’s plan for Man and Women. Why is it you can only get STD’s if you have sex outside of a faithful marriage? (Except in cases of rape or medical mishap).

How did STD’s originate?
Why do they only affect people who don’t follow God’s will?
 
Proposing spermicide use to stop H.I.V is like proposing it’s a good idea to drink out of a toilet bowl because it’s just been cleaned.

Would you risk it? Would you let anyone you love risk it?

Abstinence also has the virtue of being simple. First rule of engineering: K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Thinking you can regularly distribute condoms and spermicides in places where they don’t even have rule of law is stupid.

Sounds great in a board-room in New York. Not so easy in a place where black magic, casual rape and murder are ordinary facts of life.

Off topic: I fear for Africa if the West actually succeeds in ‘improving’ it. It’ll be like what happened to the East End slums: Clear 'em all out, dump them miles away on new estates, and then let them rot; nice new flat, but you can’t go out at night.

But at least educated, pious, middle-class people can feel better about themselves, and they don’t have to look at them any more.
 
Can we go back to the original premise of the thread. That of dissidents (catholics) paying for ads against the POPE and Holy Mother Churches teachings?
 
I think it’s good, in a perverse way. The louder they are, the easier they are to spot. I can then take evasive action. Like with Jehovah Witnesses 😉
 
Can we go back to the original premise of the thread. That of dissidents (catholics) paying for ads against the POPE and Holy Mother Churches teachings?
What are you, some kind of radical?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

😉

John Allen thinks that the Church is more firmly supportive of Humanae Vitae than it was 40 years ago.
During his almost 27-year papacy, John Paul II provided a deeper theoretical basis for traditional Catholic sexual morality through his “theology of the body.” In brief, the late pope’s argument was that human sexuality is an image of the creative love among the three persons of the Trinity, as well as God’s love for humanity. Birth control “changes the language” of sexuality, because it prevents life-giving love.
That’s a claim many Catholics might dispute, but the reading groups and seminars devoted to contemplating John Paul’s “theology of the body” mean that Catholics disposed to defend the church’s teaching now have a more formidable set of resources than they did when Paul VI wrote “Humanae Vitae.”
In addition, three decades of bishops’ appointments by John Paul II and Benedict XVI, both unambiguously committed to “Humanae Vitae,” mean that senior leaders in Catholicism these days are far less inclined than they were in 1968 to distance themselves from the ban on birth control, or to soft-pedal it. A striking number of Catholic bishops have recently brought out documents of their own defending “Humanae Vitae.”
nytimes.com/2008/07/27/opinion/27allen.html?ref=opinion
 
Every single prediction made in HV about the disorders that widespread access to contraception would introduce to society have proved to be extraordinarily accurate. HV is the cure for these disorders. To call for HV to be only more widely ignored is just plain stupid.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
And you think this woman’s HIV-infected, rapist husband will be kind enough to use a condom or allow her the time put one on prior to the act of rape?
Good point!!!

Maybe this husband is a polite rapist and adulter.
 
Compare this statement:
Perhaps we could save the politics of divisiveness and hate for a seperate discussion.
With this statement:
So perhaps we need to think more about the Gospels (…) and a little less of US political conservatism, which generally teaches that the poor and sick are poor and sick because they are lazy, instead of being hard working ‘good people’… :rolleyes:
:hmmm:

but back to the topic of the OP:

Compare this statement:
There is no doubt that condoms help prevent the spread of STD’s, including AIDS.
With this statement:
"The Catholic Bishops of South Africa, Botswana and Swaziland categorically “regard the widespread and indiscriminate promotion of condoms as an immoral and misguided weapon in our battle against HIV/AIDS for the following reasons. * The use of condoms goes against human dignity. * Condoms change the beautiful act of love into a selfish search for pleasure – while rejecting responsibility. *** Condoms do not guarantee protection against HIV/AIDS. * Condoms may even be one of the main reasons for the spread of HIV/AIDS. Apart from the possibility of condoms being faulty or wrongly used they contribute to the breaking down of self-control and mutual respect.”** (Emphasis added)
Source: “A Message of Hope”, Jul 30, 2001, issued during the Plenary Session of the Southern African Bishops’ Conference at St. Peter’s Seminary, Pretoria., referenced by Cardinal Trujillo, President of the Pontifical Council for the Family, in "Family Values Versus Safe Sex, Dec 1, 2003.​
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_20031201_family-values-safe-sex-trujillo_en.html
 
QUOTE=Oscarthecat;3980268]
Compare this statement:
There is no doubt that condoms **help prevent **
the spread of STD’s, including AIDS.

With this statement:
…Condoms do not guarantee
protection against HIV/AIDS.

There is a difference between “helping prevent” and “guarantee” protection.

Let me put it another way:

For those who engage in high risk behaviors (sex with multiple partners or partners with HIV) Condom use is safer than no condom use, but it is no guarantee they won’t still get HIV.

The only Guaranteed protection is abstinance.
 
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