Distorted misconception about Mary being elevated to the level of divinity.

[RobHom]

Gloves off?
kpeople:

In this corner, ladies and gentlemen…
we have SIA, with his own limited human understanding and interpretation of scriptures…:tiphat:
And over in this corner…
we have the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which Jesus Christ Himself founded, and gave the Holy Spirit, and of which Christ said, “The gates of hell will not prevail against it,” we have 2,000 years of Tradition and holy men and women of God, and the apostles and all the Saints who have done His will throughout the ages." :nun1: :knight1: :knight2:



Seems sort of like an unfair match-up.

Only fools go where angels dare to tread…

 

[SIA]

Only fools go where angels dare to tread…

I wouldn’t call all of you fools. I at least try to be cordial in the wake of a heated discussion.

 

[SIA]

Gloves off?
kpeople:

In this corner, ladies and gentlemen…
we have SIA, with his own limited human understanding and interpretation of scriptures…:tiphat:
And over in this corner…
we have the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which Jesus Christ Himself founded, and gave the Holy Spirit, and of which Christ said, “The gates of hell will not prevail against it,” we have 2,000 years of Tradition and holy men and women of God, and the apostles and all the Saints who have done His will throughout the ages." :nun1: :knight1: :knight2:



Seems sort of like an unfair match-up.

I think Mr. ring announcer better check his card. He made many a statement that cannot be sustained as true for both.

 

[graceandglory]

I think Mr. ring announcer better check his card. He made many a statement that cannot be sustained as true for both.

Say that again in 100 years.

 

[SIA]

Say that again in 100 years.

I won’t have to.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I won’t have to.

**You **won’t be able to. . .of course, neither will I. By then we will both be in another place (hopefully the one with Jesus). And we will know the truth. One of us will not be surprised. But I’m sure you’ll be so happy being with God that you won’t mind being surprised to find out that we Catholics were right all along.

 

[RobHom]

I wouldn’t call all of you fools. I at least try to be cordial in the wake of a heated discussion.

Say whaaat??? Come now…are beginning to sense some manifestations of MPD in you…

 

[SIA]

**You **won’t be able to. . .of course, neither will I. By then we will both be in another place (hopefully the one with Jesus). And we will know the truth. One of us will not be surprised. But I’m sure you’ll be so happy being with God that you won’t mind being surprised to find out that we Catholics were right all along.

Are you willing to stake your soul on it?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The truth Manny. That is what counts here. You cannot show where the Mary of your church in doctrine and dogma is the same Mary that the Bible describes.

We have. Many of us Catholics have explain that position time and time again in this forum. Catholic Answers wrote tracts about it as well as John Salza.

Tell me how different the Catholic Mary is different from the Biblical Mary.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m not that dumb. I merely made the point that there are many many other extrordinary people in the Bible that could have been put into those same instances but they were not.

Mary is without sin period. She is full of grace.

 

[RobHom]

SIA…have you read the “The Protoevangelium of James”? No, then perhaps you should… here it is: newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

Its a document written by an Early Church Father.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Let me explain why God made Mary sinless. There are two things the Church understands. For one in Biblical typology, there types of Mary in the OT.

Let me pull one such part. The Old Covenant is type of Christ because Christ’s blood is the Blood of the New Covenant.

The Ark of the Old Covenant contains within it the Ten Commandments, Manna, and the Aaron’s rod which symbolizes priesthood. The Ark is made of Acacia wood which cannot be decayed easily. It is also made of beaten gold.

The Ark of the Covenant is type of Mary because Mary is the literal Ark of the Covenant. When Jesus came into the world, Jesus remained inside Mary’s womb for nine months. Jesus we know is the Word of God, he is also the Living Manna, and the he is the Priest.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant is pure. Mary is also pure. You know in Scripture, that anyone who touches the Ark dies.

Joseph, as Jew would understand this and did not have sex with Mary after Jesus was born. It is through Mary’s flesh that Jesus have his own flesh from.

If Mary had sinned throughout her lifetime, her flesh would be impure and unworthy to be the Mother of God. You know God is very much offended by sin. He does not want his Son, Jesus to born of some woman who is with sin.

So God created Mary free of original sin. He made Mary just like the way he made Eve before the fall. To say that she is has sin, you would claim that God is not capable of making Mary sinless.

I say God is capable of making Mary sinless. He is the Creator.

I also like to add that the Early Church Fathers believed that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

St. Anathasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

I would carefully read this article:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

and this article:

cts.org.au/1998/overshadowingtheshadows.htm

 

[JonNC]

Let me explain why God made Mary sinless. There are two things the Church understands. For one in Biblical typology, there types of Mary in the OT.

Let me pull one such part. The Old Covenant is type of Christ because Christ’s blood is the Blood of the New Covenant.

The Ark of the Old Covenant contains within it the Ten Commandments, Manna, and the Aaron’s rod which symbolizes priesthood. The Ark is made of Acacia wood which cannot be decayed easily. It is also made of beaten gold.

The Ark of the Covenant is type of Mary because Mary is the literal Ark of the Covenant. When Jesus came into the world, Jesus remained inside Mary’s womb for nine months. Jesus we know is the Word of God, he is also the Living Manna, and the he is the Priest.

Just as the Ark of the Covenant is pure. Mary is also pure. You know in Scripture, that anyone who touches the Ark dies.

Joseph, as Jew would understand this and did not have sex with Mary after Jesus was born. It is through Mary’s flesh that Jesus have his own flesh from.

If Mary had sinned throughout her lifetime, her flesh would be impure and unworthy to be the Mother of God. You know God is very much offended by sin. He does not want his Son, Jesus to born of some woman who is with sin.

So God created Mary free of original sin. He made Mary just like the way he made Eve before the fall. To say that she is has sin, you would claim that God is not capable of making Mary sinless.

I say God is capable of making Mary sinless. He is the Creator.

I also like to add that the Early Church Fathers believed that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.

St. Anathasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

I would carefully read this article:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

and this article:

cts.org.au/1998/overshadowingtheshadows.htm

Manny,
You have responded with this in the way I asked here:

Would it be too much to ask that maybe, instead of cursing the darkness, Manny, you lit a match? Maybe explain it. Instead of whining about ignorance, you gracefully and with Christian love explain the Catholic view.

I thank you for this. May God bless you.
And for those who disagree, I pray your response be charitable and Christian. Marion doctrines are extremely important to Manny, many Catholics and Orthodox, as well as some protestants and Anglicans. If we disagree, we are called as brothers and sisters in Christ to do so agreeably. As Luther says in his Small Catechism regarding the 8th commandment:

The Eighth Commandment.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Jon

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,
You have responded with this in the way I asked here:

I thank you for this. May God bless you.
And for those who disagree, I pray your response be charitable and Christian. Marion doctrines are extremely important to Manny, many Catholics and Orthodox, as well as some protestants and Anglicans. If we disagree, we are called as brothers and sisters in Christ to do so agreeably. As Luther says in his Small Catechism regarding the 8th commandment:

Jon

Explanation is needed to give Non-Catholic Christians some understanding of Marian doctrine. They are not Anti-Biblical doctrines. It only enforces the fact that God can do all things possible. If he created Mary without sin, he can do so because just like Scripture says, “All things are possible for God.”

There is nothing impossible God can do. His very nature is to do all things possible. He did in fact created us in the first place and when created all things, he said it was good.

So when God created Mary without sin, it is good. For she is the Virgin whom Issiah spoke about in Iss. 7:14. With her full consent, the Word of God became flesh.

 

[JonNC]

Explanation is needed to give Non-Catholic Christians some understanding of Marian doctrine. They are not Anti-Biblical doctrines. It only enforces the fact that God can do all things possible. If he created Mary without sin, he can do so because just like Scripture says, “All things are possible for God.”

There is nothing impossible God can do. His very nature is to do all things possible. He did in fact created us in the first place and when created all things, he said it was good.

So when God created Mary without sin, it is good. For she is the Virgin whom Issiah spoke about in Iss. 7:14. With her full consent, the Word of God became flesh.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Some non-Catholic Christian here mentioned something about Mary being sinless as being elevated to the level of divinity. Such claim by a Non-Catholic Christian seems rather stupid in my opinion.

I think this individual either one, refuses to believe that God is capable of created a creature without sin rather than understand it.

I do not really care if this individual or any Non-Catholic denies this certain truth. They are not Catholic and thus should not concern themselves.

I can tell you this much such distortion is basically done out of ignorance. Any Catholic who has taken RCIA or any classes about the Catholic does not believe that Mary’s sinlessness equals divinity.

I have one advice for you Non-Catholic Christians about Mary’s sinlessness. If you find this doctrine difficult to understand just let it go. For crying out loud, you are not even Catholic.

It would be better to ask God himself when you die to see if what we believe is truth. Rather than make stupid assumptions.

I cannot commend you for the vain attempt to falsely accuse the non-catholics of wrong doing. Because you do not even understand scripture to begin with.

**Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.**

Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).

Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.

And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.

**John 2: 3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.” 4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.” **

The above is an outright and very clear distinction between the will of God and the will of man (in this case, Mary). Mary is not sinless, neither is she above Jesus. INsisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY.

Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late.

.

 

[po18guy]

I cannot commend you for the vain attempt to falsely accuse the non-catholics of wrong doing. Because you do not even understand scripture to begin with.

**Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.**

Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).

Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.

And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.

**John 2: 3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.” 4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.” **

The above is an outright and very clear distinction between the will of God and the will of man (in this case, Mary). Mary is not sinless, neither is she above Jesus. INsisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY.

Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late.

.

Oh boy!

 

[M0nkey]

Because you do not even understand scripture to begin with.

I’ll attempt to shine some light on many misconceptions.

**Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One—GOD.

IS MARY GOD? OF COURSE NOT. So?..is she good? According to Jesus’ spoken words here, of course not!..She is NOT Good.**

Jesus tells us plainly that ONLY GOD is good…ie sinless. This naturally implies that the rest are NOT good. And this of course includes Mary! Unless the catholics vehemently insist against the grain of scripture to elevate Mary to deity-hood (ie God), there is no other way she can be sinless (ie good).

Otherwise according to Mark 10:18, SHE TOO IS NOT GOOD. And if catholics INSIST that Mary is good or sinless, they ARE IN ACTUALITY ELEVATING HER TO THE LEVEL OF DIVINITY.

And this is no fault of the non-catholics, neither is it a mis-conception. Its in pure fact an erroneos open admission by the catholics.

I’ve meditated many times on this passage. Jesus is speaking about himself, “why do you call ***me ***good?” My view is that Jesus did not wish to appear as a “god.” But the Son of Man who did not come to be served but to serve and give his life as ransom for many. A beautiful reality which is at the heart of who God is (love).

**John 2: 3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.” 4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.” **

The above is an outright and very clear distinction between the will of God and the will of man (in this case, Mary). Mary is not sinless, neither is she above Jesus. INsisting that she is the mother of God is BLASPHEMY.

Mary is speaking about the wedding feast of the lamb in which he will give us of his cup to drink. To explain this, the wedding feast of the lamb is Christ crucified. Thus, she intercedes for us while she tells us that we ought to “do as he says.” - Jn. 2:5

Mary is the mother of the flesh that God used as His temple while He was on earth. Mary is NOT the mother of God because God is a SPIRIT, and we know by scripture that the mortal cannot give birth to the immortal.

Catholics should learn to READ the bible for themselves before its too late.

.

Mary is not the mother of the nature, which is God. She is mother of the person. Jesus is both fully God and fully man, a mystery that we Christians call the holy trinity. Therefore, Jesus has two natures’ God and man.

I hope this helps to clear things up… I would caution to be more charitable and respectful towards people of different faiths. Pax.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

I’ll attempt to shine some light on many misconceptions.

I’ve meditated many times on this passage. Jesus is speaking about himself, “why do you call ***me ***good?” My view is that Jesus did not wish to appear as a “god.” But the Son of Man who did not come to be served but to serve and give his life as ransom for many. A beautiful reality which is at the heart of who God is (love).

Mary is speaking about the wedding feast of the lamb in which he will give us of his cup to drink. To explain this, the wedding feast of the lamb is Christ crucified. Thus, she intercedes for us while she tells us that we ought to “do as he says.” - Jn. 2:5

Mary is not the mother of the nature, which is God. She is mother of the person. Jesus is both fully God and fully man, a mystery that we Christians call the holy trinity. Therefore, Jesus has two natures’ God and man.

I hope this helps to clear things up… I would caution to be more charitable and respectful towards people of different faiths. Pax.

You’ve only darkened the answers by side stepping the points. And importantly, YOUR VIEW as you say is flawed. You assumed too much on behalf of scripture which effectively makes you a heretic.

1 - Jesus said ‘No one is good except God’. That itself is enough for me. Nobody is in a position to assume what is Jesus’ reason because nobody else is Jesus. And even if that reason is correct, it does not in anyway nullify that statement made - that nobody except God is good. Which means unless Mary is god, she cannot be good. This is basic sense.

2 - The wine miracle incident happened at Capernaum, and you can even link it up to something else that is so remote. You show by this that you cannot hear the word of God. Because if a person can change the context of an incident by leaps and bounds when the incident is not even spoken in parables, that person simply cannot hear.

I am not here to save you. Only the sick needs a physician. You can meditate all you wish, but as long as your heart remains darkened and evil you will not hear God but only the voices of evil spirits.

.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You’ve only darkened the answers by side stepping the points. And importantly, YOUR VIEW as you say is flawed. You assumed too much on behalf of scripture which effectively makes you a heretic.

Who gave you authority to call someone a heretic? Anyone who is a heretic denies the truth. We, Catholics, at CAF, are no heretic.

1 - Jesus said ‘No one is good except God’. That itself is enough for me. Nobody is in a position to assume what is Jesus’ reason because nobody else is Jesus. And even if that reason is correct, it does not in anyway nullify that statement made - that nobody except God is good. Which means unless Mary is god, she cannot be good. This is basic sense.

God in Genesis said when created the universe, he said it was good. Mary is certainly not god. Her goodness is her faithfulness to God. For Mary herself in Scripture said, “My soul proclaimed the greatness of the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my savior.”

Now if you claim she is not a good Jewish woman, then you are against Scripture.

2 - The wine miracle incident happened at Capernaum, and you can even link it up to something else that is so remote. You show by this that you cannot hear the word of God. Because if a person can change the context of an incident by leaps and bounds when the incident is not even spoken in parables, that person simply cannot hear.

It happened in Capernaum in Cana. The miracle at Cana only shows that Mary did in fact intercede in behalf of the guests of the bride and groom and Jesus remain obedient to his mother by turning water into wine.

I am not here to save you. Only the sick needs a physician. You can meditate all you wish, but as long as your heart remains darkened and evil you will not hear God but only the voices of evil spirits.

No evil spirits are said here. This thread discusses mainly that through God’s own power, Mary was preserved from all sin. By denying that Mary could not be created without sin, would to be deny God’s ability to create a human being free of any sin. A woman who would bear the Son of God, who is truly the Lamb of God.