Disturbing corroboration for ++ Vigano

[pnewton]

Joey, many law enforcement experts who work abuse cases have gone on record stating that the Church is not doing enough to prevent abuse, and that there are many tools to combat this problem which the Church has yet to employ.

It would be nice to know what the “tools” are.

Why is that?

It is know as trial by press. I read the OP. It does not corroborate one singly point that Vigano makes, but is aimed only at disparaging the character of the Holy Father.

 

[joeybaggz]

Joey, many law enforcement experts who work abuse cases have gone on record stating that the Church is not doing enough to prevent abuse, and that there are many tools to combat this problem which the Church has yet to employ.

What do they want, thumb screws and the rack? In my neck of the woods, you can’t bake a cake for the church fair, read the second reading at Mass, or volunteer in any way, much less work with a child without a state police and FBI background check and a abuse awareness training class. And I imagine it is more stringent for priests. And by the way, tell them to stick their noses into the public schools, police stations, prisons, synagogues, and the other 35,000 “Christian” churches. See what cockroaches crawl out of the woodwork.

Your continued focus on the abuse itself and when it occurred shows that you are missing the point entirely.
Did you read Fr Longnecker’s article (posted by the OP?)

As someone has already said, Longnecker simply has it in for Francis. His credibility is nil.

Your efforts at hand waving and resorting to personal attacks smack of desperation.

Not desperation, simply sick and tired of Catholics who keep kicking the church when its down over something that happened 50 years ago by a bunch of priests and bishops now dead. And yes, there are one or two who are under suspicion. But the “chicken littles” somehow want everyone to believe that somehow the popes is orchestrating this mess to this day. Give me a break!

faithful Catholics with eyes can see that reform is badly needed to restore accountability at all levels.

Well maybe they ought to open their eyes a little wider and actually see what has been set in place over the last 15 years.

 

[pnewton]

By the way, I mentioned this in passing, but as it is the most important and on point problem with the article under question, the argument is the very definition of ad hominem. No point of Vigano’s letter is discussed. Only the character of the Holy Father is impugned. His only point is…

This fits with the pattern of the pope being lenient to sex offenders…

And he ends with:

Given the pope’s record, it is pretty hard not to believe Archbishop Vigano.

Nothing in the article addresses Vigano’s letter.

Fr. Longnecker, along with all the Pope’s critics in the Church miss the message of the Holy Father. It is the same message Jesus tried to teach the Pharisees, that they ignored. I remember that Fr. Corapi used to say this loudly when speaking of Jesus. “His name is Mercy.” In 2015 Pope Francis declared the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. It is what defines his papacy and what motivates him, not some cloak and dagger lavender mafia. That’s Jack Chick stuff.

The anti-Francis, torch-bearing mob need to remember this lesson from Jesus, especially that last line.

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

 

[pnewton]

There is a line between justice and mercy. In the case of crimes like sexual assault, the line is kind of easy. The Church cooperates fully with the criminal prosecution so the state administers justice, while the Church is there to offer mercy to wicked sinner. This balance is harder when dealing with matters that are not criminal, but still require discipline. However, when it comes to people that we know only from what we read, we are in no position to judge or second guess, and neither is Fr. Longnecker.

Finally, there is the issue that in all things the Church must do all it can to protect potential victims, but it must do this never forgetting the mercy of God. This is not in question. The question instead, is whether I could do a better job of understanding how to accomplish all these goals. So to this end, the question comes whether I have ever really made a bone-head mistake in the challenges I am given. If I have (and of course, I have), I have to drop my stones and walk away why Jesus writes something in the sand. Maybe this time, I will open my eyes and read it.

 

[kyrie03]

You claim the article is a “hit piece”on character of Pope Francis: the author piles dirt on Pope Francis and not Vigano.

I research case of Fr. Inzoli and find that PF trusted the advice of a Cardinal and Monsignor (who have moral and doctrinal controversies surrounding them) to rehabilitate the prelate. You respond that Jesus had controversies surrounding him as well. So I point out that Jesus didn’t leave clarification of His doctrine up to apostles as does Pope Francis when he remains silent and allows these 2 to interpret ambiguous doctrine. I gave an example that referenced the Dubia. Jesus spoke clearly; pope Francis does not. Do you not see the analogy?

I gave no analogy, but you are wrong about Jesus staying silent, as he did not always explain everything, publicly, at least, and even that does not account for how much of his ministry we do not know.

It would be more advantageous to the debate for you to address the examples I provided instead of making a blanket statement about Jesus staying silent, not explaining everything publicly, and having a ministry -much of which we know nothing about.

Yes, you are still comparing Pope Francis to Jesus. And yes, I’m still pointing out the faults in your comparison.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, you are still comparing Pope Francis to Jesus. And yes, I’m still pointing out the faults in your comparison.

Sure I am. I do that with myself as well. It is called CHRISTianity for a reason. St. Paul said, " Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ."

 

[kyrie03]

Fr Longnecker’s purpose isn’t to convince the reader of the accuracy of Vigano’s testimony. He assumes the reader, like himself, is familiar with the homosexual crisis that pervades everywhere in the Catholic Church, including the Vatican, Ireland, Honduras, England, Chile, USA.

Numerous Bishops, although perhaps not acquainted with the specifics Vigano addresses, are aware of similar situations and are also requesting a thorough investigation…for the good of the Church. To quote Bishop Morlino,

“The questions raised,” Card. DiNardo says, “deserve answers that are conclusive and based on evidence. Without those answers, innocent men may be tainted by false accusations and the guilty may be left to repeat the sins of the past.”

You have stated elsewhere that you’d be open to an investigation…even though you believe anything that might reflect negatively on Pope Francis is Jack and Chick garbage?!
Okay, how about you join your voice in requesting that Pope Francis allows for one…starting with the 300 page dossier collected by 3 Cardinals and given to Pope Francis that details moral and financial corruption in the Vatican?

Allow for Pope Francis and those he places in the highest positions in the Vatican to guide in his decision making to be found innocent!

 

[kyrie03]

I believe that true mercy cannot be divorced from justice, nor does God forgive the unrepentant. I see moral and doctrinal corruption enveloping Holy Mother Church; you see a witch hunt. If that makes me part of an anti-Francis, torch-bearing mob Pharisee in your eyes, you are welcome to your opinion.

 

[kyrie03]

Back to the topic…From Catholic Culture, The Track Record Supports the Vigano Testimony:

At several points in his bombshell testimony, Archbishop Vigano explained where the corroborating evidence could be found: in files at the Vatican or the offices of the apostolic nuncio. If those files are made public – or even vetted by a reliable, objective investigator – we would all soon know whether the archbishop’s remarkable account is accurate.

But while we wait for the Vatican to open those files (and since we realize we might wait forever), all we can do is compare the claims of Archbishop Vigano with what we do know. The more closely they match, the more plausible the archbishop’s witness appears.

Read the rest at:

The track record supports the Vigano testimony

At several points in his bombshell testimony, Archbishop Vigano explained where the corroborating evidence could be found: in files at the Vatican or the offices of the apostolic nuncio. If those files are made public—or even vetted by a reliable, objective investigator—we would all soon know...

www.catholicculture.org

 

[pnewton]

You have stated elsewhere that you’d be open to an investigation…even though you believe anything that might reflect negatively on Pope Francis is Jack and Chick garbage?!

That is not what I said, not even close.

I really have no need to “join my voice” as my bishop has already spoken for me. I support his request to investigate every aspect of the McCarrick incident, both here and abroad. I have no problem speaking up here.

I believe that true mercy cannot be divorced from justice

Absolutely. I thought I made that clear.

 

[kyrie03]

I apologize for misrepresenting your statement -you say that a cloak and dagger lavender mafia motivating Pope Francis is Jack and Chick stuff. I stand corrected.

In 2015 Pope Francis declared the Extraordinary Jubilee of Mercy. It is what defines his papacy and what motivates him, not some cloak and dagger lavender mafia. That’s Jack Chick stuff.

Is the following list of Cardinals and advisors to Pope Francis Jack and Chick stuff, too? I acknowledge it is incomplete –it neglects to mention Cd Coccopalmerio and Mons. Pinto.

https://stream.org/pope-francis-renaissance-borgia/

I really have no need to “join my voice” as my bishop has already spoken for me. I support his request to investigate every aspect of the McCarrick incident, both here and abroad. I have no problem speaking up here.

Do you agree that releasing the 300-page dossier on moral and financial corruption compiled at the request of Pope Benedict by 3 Cardinals and given to Pope Francis would aid in the investigation your bishop called for?

Do you agree that the Vatican is obligated to make available the files at the Vatican and the offices of the apostolic nuncio that Archbishop Vigano claimed have corroborating evidence for his testimony?

 

[tafan2]

Thanks for posting. A very good summary. Vigano is not lying.

 

[pnewton]

To all three of your questions, I profess my ignorance. I have never been to Italy, much less the Vatican, nor do I know enough of the nature of these files or dossiers to know of their content, or even their actual existence. Suffice it to say that I support any needed information being released to someone outside of the Vatican for determination of relevance first. Calumny must also be avoided

I will not read an article that compares the Pope to the Borias. I simply will not support such anticatholic slander.

Vigano is not lying.

We should always consider this to be the case until proven to be false, both him and Cardinal Wuerl, and Pope Francis.

I meant to add, that even if it comes out that AB Vigano is wrong about his more egregious claims, I still will be slow to think he had done other than what he thought best. We can deceive ourselves in our memories very easily, and we can all look from different angles and see different things. Any police investigator could tell you this.

 

[kyrie03]

@pnewton @CilladeRoma @Canvas

Comparing the silence of Pope Francis to the silence of Christ before Pilate is faulty

1. Jesus fully chooses His Passion and death. He makes it abundantly clear that the devil does not have THAT power over Him, He chooses to do the Will of His Father and give up His Life of His own accord.
   Read Matthew chapter 16: After Peter confesses that Christ is the Son of the Living God, Jesus makes him head of the Church and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Then, Jesus tells the disciples He plans to go to Jerusalem and be put to death. Peter begins to rebuke Jesus telling Him not to go.

GET BEHIND ME SATAN!” commands Jesus, “You are a scandal to me because you savor not the things of God, but the things of men.”

-Is Pope Francis choosing to be accused? Is he placing the things of God above earthly considerations?

1. Jesus is brought by the Jewish leaders to the Roman authority, Pilate, because he alone has lawful authority to condemn to death.

• Who has authority over Pope Francis? He is sovereign of Vatican City and not under the authority of anyone in the Church or the state. He alone has the power to release information to clear his name and the names of those implicated. His inaction damages the credibility of the Church embroiled in numerous sex scandals throughout the world as well as the moral authority of his office. Some are calling for his resignation (not death and silencing) based on his own zero tolerance policy and calls for transparency that he himself is not abiding by.

 

[kyrie03]

continued…

1. Jesus remains silent before Pilate only when crowd making unsubstantiated accusations. But when Pilate brings Jesus closer for examination, He speaks clearly and definitively. The accusations against Jesus before Pilate were that He stirred up the people, perverted the nation, forbade giving tribute to Caesar, and claimed to be Christ the King. (I’m taking this from “A Practical Commentary on Holy Scripture” by Bp Knecht that combines all 4 Gospels)
   Pilate, “Do You make no answer, behold, of how many things they accuse you!”
   Jesus was silent and Pilate marveled exceedingly knowing that the Jews had prophesies about a Messiah and he couldn’t imagine that this man before Him was claiming to be their powerful ruler. He conducts Jesus to him for a closer examination. (And Jesus then spoke openly and clearly to Pilate who found no cause in Him.)

*-Pope Francis didn’t answer 2 questions of the journalists: whether Vigano had told him of McCarrick’s sexual abuse and whether he knew that Benedict had imposed sanctions. (In fairness, he probably hadn’t had much time to review all of the testimony and wasn’t prepared to give response.) However, he tells the journalists to read the testimony, it speaks for itself and he trusts them to do the investigation. “It is an act of trust.” It will be good for them.
Eleven days later, there is still silence and inaction. He hasn’t made available any of the records at the Vatican or at the apostolic nunciature. No one implicated is speaking. How can anyone investigate properly if he withholds information?

For another perspective on the silence of Jesus versus the silence of Francis, see: Guest Op-Ed - "The Innocence of Serpents": Francis' Silence is not Jesus' Silence - CatholicCitizens.org

 

[CilladeRoma]

@kyrie03

Not sure why you tagged me in this when I have made no such comparison.

I think Vigano has an agenda, and it is not of God. I do not believe that anything he wrote is the absolute truth and it is up to him, NOT Pope Francis to bring forth compelling evidence that his (Vigano’s) claims are true.

I find it very sad that people who claim to be “traditional Catholics” have no problem thinking the absolute worst of the Holy Father just based on hearsay from men who are obviously angered by his ideology.

 

[commenter]

@kyrie03

Not sure why you tagged me in this when I have made no such comparison.

I think Vigano has an agenda, and it is not of God. I do not believe that anything he wrote is the absolute truth and it is up to him, NOT Pope Francis to bring forth compelling evidence that his (Vigano’s) claims are true.

I find it very sad that people who claim to be “traditional Catholics” have no problem thinking the absolute worst of the Holy Father just based on hearsay from men who are obviously angered by his ideology.

I didn’t think popes were supposed to have an ideology. Is it wrong for Abp Vigano to have an agenda, but ok for someone else to have an ideology?

Ideally popes and bishops should set aside their ideological agendas when they take office. St JP 2 sometimes appointed, and apparently kept in communication with, many people who had different opinions from him, and from each other. He didn’t fire competent people just for being liberal or conservative.

 

[Canvas]

why am I tagged in your post? I didn’t say that.

I just am skeptical of Archbishop Vigano’s claims.

Done.

 

[CilladeRoma]

What do you mean Popes don’t have “ideologies”. Francis is a Jesuit. You may take the man of the Jesuits, but you will never take the Jesuit out of the man.

Our more recent Popes were all secular priests. They followed different ideologies and spiritualities too.
The Catholic Church is a big tent, we have lots of ways to practice & celebrate our faith. Vigano doesn’t agree with how Francis does that, that fact is obvious.

That doesn’t mean that either of them is wrong, just different.

However, Vigano is the one who is making claims with zero evidence, so it looks like he has an axe to grind. Therefore I will not give any credence to his claims unless and until he starts producing some proof.

 

[kyrie03]

For whatever I posted that was community flagged and removed, I am sorry for any offense or scandal I may have given (and I wish I knew what it was). My intentions on posting are to defend what I see as attacks on Holy Mother Church. Not only are Her doctrines muddied (no longer clear) but Her moral authority is being undermined from within. The smoke of Satan spoken of by Pope Paul VI seems to be enveloping Her -see following report http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Catholicism-lost-faithful-religion-U-S.html When the Church boldly speaks the truth, it naturally attracts those searching for the truth.

I don’t know if AB Vigano is deceiving anyone. 21 Bishops have come out to either vouch for his credibility or agree that an investigation is necessary for the Church. He cannot produce the evidence that is housed in the Vatican and apostolic nunciature, only the Vatican can order it . And it seems they will not. But no matter, this is God’s Church, Christ’s Bride. If it is His Will that the structure of the Church be liquidated……I must resign my will to His just as Mary did when she willed the cruel death of Her Son.

To those who are offended that I tagged you in a prior post, I apologize.

May God in His tender mercy forgive us all our sins and offenses committed knowingly or unknowingly. And may we all seek to be conformed to His Will instead of our own.