Disturbing News on TLM

[368ofk]

"Do you really need five Sunday Ordinary Form Masses. Can’t you make at
least one of them a Tridentine Mass (Extra Ordinary Form) in the future. I understand that you may not be able to understand Latin or that you
refuse to offer the Extra Ordinary form of the Holy Mass. But the
younger seminarians are. Ever since I seen the beauty of the Tridentine
Mass, I now feel that most of the beauty of the Catholic liturgical
tradition had been stripped away from my generation. Your generation may
not yearn for it. But allot of younger Roman Catholics who have been to
one love it. Here is a good website to learn how it is progressing
today.
thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

---

Do you even talk about it to your parishioners?"***

OK. Now the defensive tone in your priest’s reply makes more sense. To be frank, your second letter to him comes across as pretty confrontational and, dare I say, condescending. While I’d guess you didn’t intend be insulting, it likely came across that way to him, too.

If it were I, I would consider writing him again to ensure he understands that you didn’t mean to disparage him, his generation, and the Novus Ordo Mass.

As you probably know, adherents to the TLM are oftentimes thought to have a holier-than-thou attitude. And, while that sometimes can be the case, it typically isn’t. But, you have that bias in your disfavor before you even write a single word.

And, regardless of your priest’s perspective on TLM Mass-goers, ticking him off probably isn’t going serve you well. The old adage involving flies, vinegar, and honey comes to mind.

 

[bkovacs]

Why do this?

Do you let them know you will ‘talk about them’ once you get an answer back?

To get a general idea of the demand of the TLM in my local area and the Philadelphia Archdiocese as a whole. I read about allot of interest in the TLM everywhere else but my own archdiocese. I’m interested in having a Church to go to. If I talk about them it is just because it is part of the email. I don’t plan on going to happy clappy parishes. Just me. I will probably miss Holy week and Easter Vigil this year, because, my Roman Catholic parish that follows the Extra Ordinary Form doesn’t exist yet from the replies I’m getting. And I’m talkin local, not a 40 minute drive. No reason why parishes that have 4 to 7 Masses on Sundays can’t fit a TLM in. Or inform their parishiners about what the TLM is and it’s rich history. Many have never seen it. They just say it’s not them. What are they country folk, and the TLM is for King and Queens.

 

[Caesar]

Canon Law requires seminarians to be taught Latin.

 

[bkovacs]

OK. Now the defensive tone in your priest’s reply makes more sense. To be frank, your second letter to him comes across as pretty confrontational and, dare I say, condescending. While I’d guess you didn’t intend be insulting, it likely came across that way to him, too.

If it were I, I would consider writing him again to ensure he understands that you didn’t mean to disparage him, his generation, and the Novus Ordo Mass.

As you probably know, adherents to the TLM are oftentimes thought to have a holier-than-thou attitude. And, while that sometimes can be the case, it typically isn’t. But, you have that bias in your disfavor before you even write a single word.

And, regardless of your priest’s perspective on TLM Mass-goers, ticking him off probably isn’t going serve you well. The old adage involving flies, vinegar, and honey comes to mind.

You may be right but I get the big impression that this is a lost cause. He will never have the Extra Ordinary form in his parish as long as he is pastor.

 

[cecilia97]

We are blessed to be part of a very orthodox parish

:extrahappy:

Couldn’t help myself!

 

[368ofk]

To get a general idea of the demand of the TLM in my local area and the Philadelphia Archdiocese as a whole…

You may know this already, but these diocesean parishes currently offer the TLM in Philadelphia:

Our Lady of Consolation

Our lady of Lourdes

Of course, I have no idea if either is convenient to you.

There’s also apparently a third (without a website) and a fourth (in which the implementation of the TLM has apparently been delayed).

I’ve always found this site to be a reliable source of information for diocesean TLM’s in the US and Canada.

 

[brotherhrolf]

A parish can be orthodox and have no interest in offering the TLM.

Gosh, this is so true. I attend one. But what happens when you have a choir that is perfectly capable of singing Gregorian chant and sacred motets in Latin…and then the bishop says he just acknowledges the MP? Gee Brother Hrolf…Yep, I know you were an altar boy before 1965. Yep, I know you’ve sung in the cathedral choir for 25 years. Yep, I know that the choir sings Gregorian chant and sacred motets but heck, there won’t be none of that Latin here. No one is interested in it. Bah dum bump.

 

[bkovacs]

You may know this already, but these diocesean parishes currently offer the TLM in Philadelphia:

Our Lady of Consolation

Our lady of Lourdes

Of course, I have no idea if either is convenient to you.

There’s also apparently a third (without a website) and a fourth (in which the implementation of the TLM has apparently been delayed).

I’ve always found this site to be a reliable source of information for diocesean TLM’s in the US and Canada.

None of them are even close for me.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Gosh, this is so true. I attend one. But what happens when you have a choir that is perfectly capable of singing Gregorian chant and sacred motets in Latin…and then the bishop says he just acknowledges the MP? Gee Brother Hrolf…Yep, I know you were an altar boy before 1965. Yep, I know you’ve sung in the cathedral choir for 25 years. Yep, I know that the choir sings Gregorian chant and sacred motets but heck, there won’t be none of that Latin here. No one is interested in it. Bah dum bump.

What happens if you have a choir capable of singing Gregorian chant and there is no call for it?

Easy.

You don’t use the choir for that.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

To get a general idea of the demand of the TLM in my local area and the Philadelphia Archdiocese as a whole. I read about allot of interest in the TLM everywhere else but my own archdiocese. I’m interested in having a Church to go to. If I talk about them it is just because it is part of the email. I don’t plan on going to happy clappy parishes. Just me. I will probably miss Holy week and Easter Vigil this year, because, my Roman Catholic parish that follows the Extra Ordinary Form doesn’t exist yet from the replies I’m getting. And I’m talkin local, not a 40 minute drive. No reason why parishes that have 4 to 7 Masses on Sundays can’t fit a TLM in. Or inform their parishiners about what the TLM is and it’s rich history. Many have never seen it. They just say it’s not them. What are they country folk, and the TLM is for King and Queens.

Your sample email does not indicate you are looking into ‘having a Church to go to’ just that you have relocated.

Your email sample probably gets an initial response along the lines of ‘who does this on think he is’.

BTW – if there was ‘no reason’ for a parish to have 4 to 7 Masses on Sundays they would not have 4 to 7 Masses on Sundays.

 

[James0235]

What happens if you have a choir capable of singing Gregorian chant and there is no call for it?

Easy.

You don’t use the choir for that.

You mean no call besides the call of the 2nd Vatican Council, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, and Sacramentum Caritatis?

James

 

[rwoehmke]

Seems like we may have lots more Spanish Masses before we get Latin. Old guys like me are dying off and our places are being filled by Latinos. If it weren’t for them the numbers of Catholics in the U.S would be shrinking. Fully 10 percent of those born Catholic have left the Church and we are depending on Converts and Latinos to make up for them. Latinos represent bigger numbers than converts. I attended an Evangelization Conference in Minneapolis back in the 70"s. One of the speakers said that not long after the turn of the century the Latino influx would change the Catholic Church forever. I don’t think he was talking only language, but indicated that the Catholic Faith of the Latino was more energetic and colorful. More feasts, more processions, etc. Like it or not the U.S. has become a bilingual society.

 

[brotherhrolf]

What happens if you have a choir capable of singing Gregorian chant and there is no call for it?

Easy.

You don’t use the choir for that.

Facile, Elish Maura, very facile. We do sing Gregorian chant in the context of a NO in English. It’s like taking a shower with a rain coat on.

Think Pooh Bear, think! We take said choir and we sing praise and worship! No, that doesn’t seem right…

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You mean no call besides the call of the 2nd Vatican Council, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, and Sacramentum Caritatis?

James

Is your point that the original question posed to me was a foolish one?

Unless the poster was deceiving me I took the description of the choir to mean they had the ability but something was missing or some other valid option was in place.

Was this poster playing bait and switch with the question?

 

[surfinpure]

A parish can be orthodox and have no interest in offering the TLM.

Perhaps. I am undecided on this matter.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Seems like we may have lots more Spanish Masses before we get Latin. Old guys like me are dying off and our places are being filled by Latinos. If it weren’t for them the numbers of Catholics in the U.S would be shrinking. Fully 10 percent of those born Catholic have left the Church and we are depending on Converts and Latinos to make up for them. Latinos represent bigger numbers than converts. I attended an Evangelization Conference in Minneapolis back in the 70"s. One of the speakers said that not long after the turn of the century the Latino influx would change the Catholic Church forever. I don’t think he was talking only language, but indicated that the Catholic Faith of the Latino was more energetic and colorful. More feasts, more processions, etc. Like it or not the U.S. has become a bilingual society.

Spanish Masses? You mean the ones written during the Renaissance in Spain, the Masses of colonial Mexico; the Masses and motets of Cuba; the Masses and motets of Peru ?

Energetic and colorful? Si, es verdad! Feasts? Processions? Naw! All dat stuff was only down in San Antonio. Didn’t have none of dat stuff in New Orleans. Quien es uno Latino?

Como se describio los gentes de los Islenos Canarios? Espanol o Latino? Como se describio los gentes de Cuba? Espanol o Latino?

Oh, we can claim a Hispanic century before us. The Cubans came in 1961 to south Louisiana. What is the difference between black beans and yellow rice and red beans and white rice?

Post Katrina - ooooh boy we have Mexican ingredients in our local supermarket! As if we didn’t use them before or have them before. We have a wider selection that’s all.

In the final analysis, los Latinos in New Orleans will be absorbed. You just think you’re different. Wait. You’ll see.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

Ours is an elder popultaion. We don’t need catechesis for that which we grew up with. No one wants the EF.

I am very happy that you have found a Mass where you can grow spiritually and pray well. Certainly, the choice of the many people who attend your reverent NO parish probably agree with you that they do not prefer the EF. However, you cannot reason from your parishioner’s choice up to the choice of the entire Church. That is a logical fallacy. Your statement that, “No one wants the EF” is clearly untrue. I want the TLM. The people who drive an hour or so to attend the TLM at the churches typically located in inner city areas want the TLM. My point is simple. I was born after Vatican II and grew up with the NO; the TLM was completely foreign to me for the first 25 years of my life. I was told horror stories about how awful the Mass used to be, in a dead language with the priest with his back to the people! When I was exposed to the TLM, I had an opportunity to judge for myself, and I prefer the TLM. I have dozens of friends under 40 who, like me, did not know the TLM growing up, but have found it and now prefer it. I’m not saying that everyone will prefer it, but I think it might amount to a fairly significant minority if the EF became more readily available… at least enough people to justify one Mass within a reasonable geographic region.

 

[James0235]

Is your point that the original question posed to me was a foolish one?

Unless the poster was deceiving me I took the description of the choir to mean they had the ability but something was missing or some other valid option was in place.

Was this poster playing bait and switch with the question?

I wrote nothing to suggest any of that.

You suggested the choir not sing Gregorian chant. I was pointing out that the Church suggests they should.

James

 

[ElizabethPH]

I got an email back from a local pastor in my area in regards to implementing the Extra Ordinary Form at the local parish and asked if his parishiners knew about the TLM and if he would replace one of his 6 Sunday Masses with a TLM in the future. Here is his reply:

“Dear Bob,
Very briefly…yes, I do speak with my parishioners. I check in with
them on a variety of topics. By the way, I know Latin fairly well. I was
of the generation in the Seminary that was not only taught Latin but was
taught in Latin. In speaking with them, the overwhelming majority find it a
curiosity, much like having a Mass in Spanish or German or Pennsylvania
Dutch. As far as attending Mass regularly in Latin, no, that is not for
them. They have no interest whatsoever.
Yes, we need all six Masses in English. In fact, we preparing for a time
in the not so distant future when there will be even fewer priests available
for Mass and that may mandate a reduction in the number of Masses here. Our
church was built for that contingency. I doubt very much that there is any
interest in any other parish around here. As far as young seminarians,
there are less than 40 studying for Philadelphia. Not exactly overwhelming
numbers. They do not have much interest in any foreign language, let alone
Latin. They do learn conversational Spanish.
If there was a major need for a Tridentine Mass, yes, I would be
interested. But there has been none and I think I know my parishioners
fairly well. Take care and God bless.
Father Riegler”

I thought the seminaries were growing, and those in them were required to learn both forms of the Mass.

I know this can be frustrating, but take heart. Upon the Pope’s MP I did some checking and emails to my parish a deacon said there was no interest at all. The priest said he was overwhelmed as it was and another parish just didn’t offer any information. Slowly but surely folks came out of the woodwork and started inquiring and organizing. Our priest is going to have the TLM this month. Although it is not a regularly scheduled Mass; it is a start; and it can do nothing but grow, I believe. Perhaps the same will happen in your area these things take time.

 

[stmaria]

=Brother John;3402458]
I don’t have anything against Latin, but it doesn’t do a thing for me

.

It’s not just about the Latin! It’s the symbolism, the vestments, the humbling of the priest with the prayers at the foot of the altar, the double confeitor, it’s the numerous genuflections, signs of the cross, the reverence of the altar boys, the kneeling to receive communion, the beautifully adorned sanctuaries, the Tabernacle on the altar, the beautiful traditional music, the reading of the Last Gospel of John, the Leonine Prayers.
The Mass should be partly in Latin and the vernacular as the *Constitution on the Liturgy *demands.

Last Gospel of John stmichaels.org/stmichaels/mass9b.html
Leonine Prayers stmichaels.org/stmichaels/mass.html