Disturbing News on TLM

[brotherhrolf]

I am very happy that you have found a Mass where you can grow spiritually and pray well. Certainly, the choice of the many people who attend your reverent NO parish probably agree with you that they do not prefer the EF. However, you cannot reason from your parishioner’s choice up to the choice of the entire Church. That is a logical fallacy. Your statement that, “No one wants the EF” is clearly untrue. I want the TLM. The people who drive an hour or so to attend the TLM at the churches typically located in inner city areas want the TLM. My point is simple. I was born after Vatican II and grew up with the NO; the TLM was completely foreign to me for the first 25 years of my life. I was told horror stories about how awful the Mass used to be, in a dead language with the priest with his back to the people! When I was exposed to the TLM, I had an opportunity to judge for myself, and I prefer the TLM. I have dozens of friends under 40 who, like me, did not know the TLM growing up, but have found it and now prefer it. I’m not saying that everyone will prefer it, but I think it might amount to a fairly significant minority if the EF became more readily available… at least enough people to justify one Mass within a reasonable geographic region.

Sorry, Father. I was being sarcastic/ironic in stating “no one wants the EF”. My parish had a grand total of 200 parishoners in 1983. We now have over 2,000 families precisely because we have a reverent NO and a choir that routinely sings chant and Latin motets. Our bishop, however, merely “acknowledged” the MP and followed it up by an editorial from the chancellor of the diocese the next week saying “we have an indult parish (low Mass only) and nobody wants this”.

I know of one cathedral choir that would jump up and down in joy if they were given the opportunity to sing a Solemn High Mass. I know a congregation that would be every bit as joyful. Our rector was ordained before V II but he defers to the bishop. We all know what “acknowledge” means in bureaucrateese.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I wrote nothing to suggest any of that.

You suggested the choir not sing Gregorian chant. I was pointing out that the Church suggests they should.

James

No - I suggested that if there are things (outside the ability to sing Gregorian chant) that hinders doing so then just don’t do it.

Since it is a suggestion (term we both use) there is the implication the suggestion could be substituted with other valid options.

 

[Brenda_V]

Spanish Masses? You mean the ones written during the Renaissance in Spain, the Masses of colonial Mexico; the Masses and motets of Cuba; the Masses and motets of Peru ?

Energetic and colorful? Si, es verdad! Feasts? Processions? Naw! All dat stuff was only down in San Antonio. Didn’t have none of dat stuff in New Orleans. Quien es uno Latino?

Como se describio los gentes de los Islenos Canarios? Espanol o Latino? Como se describio los gentes de Cuba? Espanol o Latino?

Oh, we can claim a Hispanic century before us. The Cubans came in 1961 to south Louisiana. What is the difference between black beans and yellow rice and red beans and white rice?

Post Katrina - ooooh boy we have Mexican ingredients in our local supermarket! As if we didn’t use them before or have them before. We have a wider selection that’s all.

In the final analysis, los Latinos in New Orleans will be absorbed. You just think you’re different. Wait. You’ll see.

Brenda V.

 

[James0235]

No - I suggested that if there are things (outside the ability to sing Gregorian chant) that hinders doing so then just don’t do it.

Since it is a suggestion (term we both use) there is the implication the suggestion could be substituted with other valid options.

Of course there are other options permitted. But, it is required that chant be given “pride of place” (Sacrosanctum Concilium 116, General Instruction of the Roman Missal 41, Sing to the Lord 72)

Do you believe that is is possible to give Gregorian chant pride of place in the Liturgy by ignoring it and never using it? Especially in light of the fact that, in the United States at least, our bishops have stated that “Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids.” (Sing to the Lord 75)

James

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Of course there are other options permitted. But, it is required that chant be given “pride of place” (Sacrosanctum Concilium 116, General Instruction of the Roman Missal 41, Sing to the Lord 72)

Do you believe that is is possible to give Gregorian chant pride of place in the Liturgy by ignoring it and never using it? Especially in light of the fact that, in the United States at least, our bishops have stated that “Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids.” (Sing to the Lord 75)

James

I am not aware of the HMC giving an official measure of ‘pride of place’ based on usage.

And since the HMC does give valid options it seems she provides for both the ability to maintain ‘pride of place’ while never using it.

So yes, I think it can be done.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Followup

"Do you really need five Sunday Ordinary Form Masses. Can’t you make at
least one of them a Tridentine Mass (Extra Ordinary Form) in the future.
I understand that you may not be able to understand Latin or that you
refuse to offer the Extra Ordinary form of the Holy Mass. But the
younger seminarians are. Ever since I seen the beauty of the Tridentine
Mass, I now feel that most of the beauty of the Catholic liturgical
tradition had been stripped away from my generation. Your generation may
not yearn for it. But allot of younger Roman Catholics who have been to
one love it. Here is a good website to learn how it is progressing
today.
thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

Do you even talk about it to your parishioners?"

Reply is in my first post.

I could tell from the tone of his reply (in your OP) that you’d offended him. When I saw your email to him, I could see why.

You spoke to this priest as if he were an uninformed numpty.

 

[ProVobis]

“Canon Law requires seminarians to be taught Latin.”

So isn’t it disobedient for seminarians not to study Latin?

 

[surfinpure]

:extrahappy:

Couldn’t help myself!

hahaha

 

[GerardP]

I got an email back from a local pastor in my area in regards to implementing the Extra Ordinary Form at the local parish and asked if his parishiners knew about the TLM and if he would replace one of his 6 Sunday Masses with a TLM in the future. Here is his reply:

“Dear Bob,
Very briefly…yes, I do speak with my parishioners. I check in with
them on a variety of topics. By the way, I know Latin fairly well. I was
of the generation in the Seminary that was not only taught Latin but was
taught in Latin. In speaking with them,** the overwhelming majority find it a
curiosity,** much like having a Mass in Spanish or German or Pennsylvania
Dutch. As far as attending Mass regularly in Latin, no, that is not for
them.** They have no interest whatsoever.**
Yes, we need all six Masses in English. In fact, we preparing for a time
in the not so distant future when there will be even fewer priests available
for Mass and that may mandate a reduction in the number of Masses here. Our
church was built for that contingency. I** doubt very much that there is any
interest in any other parish around here**. As far as young seminarians,
there are less than 40 studying for Philadelphia. Not exactly overwhelming
numbers. They do not have much interest in any foreign language, let alone
Latin. They do learn conversational Spanish.
If there was a major need for a Tridentine Mass, yes, I would be
interested. But there has been none and I think I know my parishioners
fairly well. Take care and God bless.
Father Riegler”

I thought the seminaries were growing, and those in them were required to learn both forms of the Mass.

It’s funny how this guy not only puts the kibbosh on any mass at his parish but he’s got the hubris to try and speak for the entire archdiocese.

I personally know a number of Catholics in that general area that are waiting for the TLM and I even stirred some interest among Protestants that were fascinated with the idea of an ancient Catholic rite.

40 Seminarians in Philly? That’s a good start. If every new seminarian is taught correctly that number will skyrocket. 50 SSPX priests in the entire U.S.A. manage to upset quite a few bishops. They seem to make a difference.

I wonder what else is Catholic that his parishioners are not interested in? Maybe they’re not interested in going to mass “every” Sunday.

Are they interested in being preached to about what is and isn’t a sin?

Are they interested in the dogma “No Salvation Outside the Church”

Are they interested in knowing they’ll go to Hell for practicing contraception?

What hubris. Since when does the concupiscience of the congregation determine what they will or will not be taught?

There is something wrong with the job a pastor is doing when the people of the Latin rite of the Church have no interest in Latin or the rite in Latin. He’s done a very bad job as pastor.

I’m tempted to drive out to this parish and record the mass to see just what is going on.

I’m betting this guy has bad-mouthed the Latin Mass to his parisioners in order to further his own agenda.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

With all due respect to the pastor, I have to disagree with him on several points. To be fair to the TLM, which has not been offered in most parishes for over 40 years, I think parishioners would need to be exposed to it and catechized on it, in order for some of them to express that they prefer the NO in English. One parish in NJ did just that… the pastor offered a six week seminar on the TLM for his parishioners, began offering the TLM regularly on a Sunday morning, and attracted about 1,000 people to the TLM! At the very least, your pastor is not correct regarding the state of the seminarians or St. Charles Borromeo Seiminary. Several of the seminarians studying for Philadelphia are interested in the TLM, and next Fall the seminary is offering a course in how to offer the TLM. Hang in there!

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

A great deal of common sense in this post. God bless you Father.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Since when does the concupiscience of the congregation determine what they will or will not be taught?

So true. Good quote.

It’s as if we should stop teaching classical music in the U.S. not because of its inherent worthiness or unworthiness, but because most people in the U.S. actually prefer Britney Spears and JLo.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Missing Mass on Sundays and using birth control are sins. Prefering the Novus Ordo Mass, or not being particularly interested in Latin Mass, is not a sin.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I thought I remember hearing that Blessed Fr. Solanus had trouble in seminary in Detroit because it was taught in German. Not because it was taught in Latin. Apparently, seminarians were not all taught in Latin back in the day.

 

[SemperFidelis]

What happens if you have a choir capable of singing Gregorian chant and there is no call for it?

Easy.

You don’t use the choir for that.

Since Mass seems to be about what the people want, what if 90% want Black Sabbath music at Mass and 10% want Gregorian Chant? Should we go with Black Sabbath? Shoot, if we’re doing this with the liturgy, then we should do it with Dogma too! Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is just too exclusive. We should be more inclusive, and no contraception just isn’t realistic in today’s society. I’m glad the selection of liturgical music has become a democracy now. There are a ton of Church documents which call for Gregorian Chant. It doesn’t matter whether the people want it or not. The Church has consistently called for it. Nobody seems to be listening though. Very sad.

 

[holdencaulfield]

you asked this priest about very local conditions, his parish, the seminary serving his diocese, and he responded to your question, refering to local conditions. no reason to make any global assumptions based on his opinion or plans or outlook.

True.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Since Mass seems to be about what the people want, what if 90% want Black Sabbath music at Mass and 10% want Gregorian Chant? Should we go with Black Sabbath? Shoot, if we’re doing this with the liturgy, then we should do it with Dogma too! Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is just too exclusive. We should be more inclusive, and no contraception just isn’t realistic in today’s society. I’m glad the selection of liturgical music has become a democracy now. There are a ton of Church documents which call for Gregorian Chant. It doesn’t matter whether the people want it or not. The Church has consistently called for it. Nobody seems to be listening though. Very sad.

If Black Sabbath music is one of the acceptable alternatives?

Yes - then no big deal, use it.

No - again, no big deal, don’t use it.

I spoke of ACCEPTABLE alternatives not popularity issues.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Yes - then no big deal, use it.

Are you kidding?

No - again, no big deal, don’t use it.

So I guess Sacred Music is just no big deal?

I spoke of ACCEPTABLE alternatives not popularity issues.

So a parish never using Gregorian Chant after the Vatican has consistently said that it must have a “pride of place” is an acceptable alterative to what the Church has said regarding Sacred Music?

 

[holdencaulfield]

I just sent an email to my Archdiocese, I hope to not have this same trouble. I suggest that you start a petition and send it to your Archbishop. I think that every city should at least have one Mass not overrun with Nuvos Ordo

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I just sent an email to my Archdiocese, I hope to not have this same trouble. I suggest that you start a petition and send it to your Archbishop. I think that every city should at least have one Mass not overrun with Nuvos Ordo

How can a diocese be ‘overrun’ with the ORDINARY FORM of the mass??

 

[Eilish_Maura]

So a parish never using Gregorian Chant after the Vatican has consistently said that it must have a “pride of place” is an acceptable alterative to what the Church has said regarding Sacred Music?

Where has the church defined ‘pride of place’ by a certain amount of usage?

If a parish works within the legitimate structure given by the HMC and never uses Gregorian Chant then there is NO PROBLEM.