Disturbing News on TLM

[Dauphin]

Bishops are concerned about the level of vocations, and the number of priests being ordained. If the simple solution were to teach Latin and their seminaries would be full as a result, I am sure that would happen.Your statement is simplistic.
There isn’t one ‘full’ seminary in the United States. Check out how many young men are being ordained in any diocese in the U.S. Some diocese have years where there is no one ordained. Pick a diocese, and put it up on the Internet for a look-see. That’s your proof. Generally latin is taught in High School. If you have to teach someone Latin in the first year of Seminary, it is not going to work. Latin is not that easy.

I haven’t done this, but you could research on the Internet how many young men were ordained in any particular year.

Your Abbott

This seminary is full:

fsspolgs.org/

It’s quite true that Latin isn’t enough. The revival of Latin is only a part of the revival of orthodoxy. Those seminaries and religious communities which hold to tradition are thriving.

 

[DustinsDad]

…There isn’t one ‘full’ seminary in the United States. …

Actually, we had a visitor from Kenrick Seminary in St. Louis (ArchBishop Burke territory) a few months back. He indicated that they were looking for more housing/bedding at the time of his visit. I took that to mean they were “full.”

And of course it’s more than just teaching Latin - that’s just one ingrediant in the whole recipe.

Here’s more of that recipe from Kenrick Seminary

DD

 

[Eilish_Maura]

So just “appreciating” Gregorian Chant equals “pride of place?” I do recall certain “norms” being set down regarding Gregorian Chant. James has posted them on this thread in fact. It doesn’t matter whether no one in the parish wants it or not, it should be done.

What meaningful measurement have we been given for ‘pride of place’? What meaningful definition does it have?

So far level of usage is not a measurement the HMC has called into use.

 

[SemperFidelis]

What meaningful measurement have we been given for ‘pride of place’? What meaningful definition does it have?

Common Sense and continuity. Read back a few posts to the one where I already explained this. How on earth can you equate “pride of place” to equaling not using at all if the laity in a parish don’t want it? Sounds like a “spirit of Vatican II” interpretation to me…

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Common Sense and continuity. Read back a few posts to the one where I already explained this. How on earth can you equate “pride of place” to equaling not using at all if the laity in a parish don’t want it? Sounds like a “spirit of Vatican II” interpretation to me…

If what is used in its place is valid and acceptable according to the Church there is no problem and with no objective way to measure ‘pride of place’ that issue becomes moot.

 

[SemperFidelis]

If what is used in its place is valid and acceptable according to the Church there is no problem and with no objective way to measure ‘pride of place’ that issue becomes moot.

Knowing the meaning of English (or Latin) words is objective enough. “Pride of place” does not equal not using. End of story.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Knowing the meaning of English (or Latin) words is objective enough. “Pride of place” does not equal not using. End of story.

Tell the Church that for she is the one who has created things so it does not have to be used.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Tell the Church that for she is the one who has created things so it does not have to be used.

The Church didn’t write Haugen, Haus, OCP, et al. Just because they’re allowed, doesn’t mean you can ignore Gregorian Chant completely. The Church has stated that the congregation must learn to sing chant in certain parts of the Mass (Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc.) Besides this, you’re getting off track. I guess I should add reading comprehension and simple logic to common sense and continuity in understanding “pride of place”. I’ve never seen anyone argue that “pride of place” = not using at all. When liberals come to that part of Sacrosanctum Concilium they usually just skip it or ignore it because they know they have no other argument. Your “position” can’t be defended, because the basis of your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I think CradleCath posts a valid question in post 107:

CradleCath:

Is there a reason that you post in the Traditional Catholicism forum? Besides that of arguing for argument’s sake?

If you’re going to do this, at least be good at it…

 

[Eilish_Maura]

The Church didn’t write Haugen, Haus, OCP, et al. Just because they’re allowed, doesn’t mean you can ignore Gregorian Chant completely. The Church has stated that the congregation must learn to sing chant in certain parts of the Mass (Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc.) Besides this, you’re getting off track. I guess I should add reading comprehension and simple logic to common sense and continuity in understanding “pride of place”. I’ve never seen anyone argue that “pride of place” = not using at all. When liberals come to that part of Sacrosanctum Concilium they usually just skip it or ignore it because they know they have no other argument. Your “position” can’t be defended, because the basis of your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If there is no objective measure there is no reason to complain so long as valid options are used.

IF the Church truly did not want any parish to leave out something then there are ways to do it - and they are things the Church so far has NOT done.

 

[SemperFidelis]

If there is no objective measure there is no reason to complain so long as valid options are used.

IF the Church truly did not want any parish to leave out something then there are ways to do it - and they are things the Church so far has NOT done.

Uh, did you ignore the part of my post where the Church said the laity must learn to chant parts of the Mass such as the Credo, Kyrie, etc.?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Uh, did you ignore the part of my post where the Church said the laity must learn to chant parts of the Mass such as the Credo, Kyrie, etc.?

We were talking about the issue of ‘pride of place’ - a nebulous quality with no way to measure application.

 

[SemperFidelis]

We were talking about the issue of ‘pride of place’ - a nebulous quality with no way to measure application.

Well, the Church has decided that “pride of place” at least means learning to chant the Credo, Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc. Or are you going to ignore that too?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Well, the Church has decided that “pride of place” at least means learning to chant the Credo, Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc. Or are you going to ignore that too?

Is that a literal translation or your interpretation?

 

[James0235]

Well, the Church has decided that “pride of place” at least means learning to chant the Credo, Kyrie, Agnus Dei, etc. Or are you going to ignore that too?

Is that a literal translation or your interpretation?

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated:

**Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids. More difficult chants, such as Gloria VIII and settings of the Credo and Pater Noster, might be learned after the easier chants have been mastered. **
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 75)

James

 

[bkovacs]

E-Mail back Nativity of Our Lord in Warrington PA. And Allentown Diocese

Do you offer the Extra Ordinary Form of the Mass (Tridentine Mass). If
not are there any plans to offer the Mass in the future. I am a
Traditional Roman Catholic and follow the Extra Ordinary Form liturgical
calendar as well as the 1962 Missal.

Reply:

I do not plan to do it in the near future.

Allentown:

Reply:

The only church in our Diocese that holds a Tridentine Latin Mass is St. Stephen of Hungary, 510 Union St., Allentown, PA 18101-2307 (phone: 610-439-0111).

 

[Eilish_Maura]

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated:

**Each worshiping community in the United States, including all age groups and all ethnic groups, should, at a minimum, learn Kyrie XVI, Sanctus XVIII, and Agnus Dei XVIII, all of which are typically included in congregational worship aids. More difficult chants, such as Gloria VIII and settings of the Credo and Pater Noster, might be learned after the easier chants have been mastered. **
(United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Sing to the Lord 75)

James

So we are still without an official definition and measurement of ‘pride of place’. Thanks James.

 

[SemperFidelis]

So we are still without an official definition and measurement of ‘pride of place’. Thanks James.

Yes, but it has been clarified that at a minimum, “pride of place” means those above chants must be learned. Reading comprehension, reading comprehension, reading comprehension.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

No. Byzantine are the churches of the East. They are united to Rome, but each church has its own rite and its own language. They have never used Latin. They were founded by the Apostles and are in communion with Rome, but Rome respects their tradition. They use their national languages: Croatian, Russian, Greek, Arabic, Polish, Serbian and so forth. They also have a different missal and lectionary and a different liturgical calendar.

Hope this helps.

JR

Dear bkovacs,

Are there any Eastern rites churches near you? I am pretty familiar with some of the Byzantine rites (Ukranian and Melkite) and the Marinite rite. I have attended the Armenian rite and have seen the Syro-Malabar rite on EWTN; they are all very beautiful. Next month, I plan to visit the Coptic rite chapel in Brooklyn. If you can’t find the TLM and you have an Eastern rites church in your area, that’s not a bad option either.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yes, but it has been clarified that at a minimum, “pride of place” means those above chants must be learned. Reading comprehension, reading comprehension, reading comprehension.

Seems you are claiming a document says what it actually does NOT say. Playing word games?

Those documents say the above chants must be learned.

They say nothing about ‘pride of place’. IF the authors meant them to be a MEASURE of ‘pride of place’ they would have/could have said so clearly and eliminated as many ways as possible to licitly opt out of using them.

 

[Conservative]

The Catholic Church - is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
What two Churches / parishes are One and the same now? If you travel to the U.S., Europe, Latin America, Africa or Asia, or just the next county in your state, will you understand / find the Mass to be the same? You did when it was in Latin. Even language aside, there was no change in manner (one kneels during Consecration, another stands, etc.) There would be no need for this thread’s argument to become a nationality dispute.

Do you get a sense of holiness? You did when it was Latin / Tridentine with all the veneration, prayers, rubrics, vestments and reverence; you did with the Blessed Sacrament centrally located - behind the altar rail, where people knelt for Holy Communion. You KNEW you were in Church.

Do you recognize that you’re IN a Catholic (also a reference to universal) Church - or does it resemble another denomination? Or do you see statues - that you didn’t pray TO but whose images represented Heavenly models for us all. But again, the one language, Latin, and all manners of worship remained the same - in any Catholic Church. You knew where you were.

As for Apostolic - this poor Catholic admits their faltering memory on that one…Sad, isn’t it?
But all in all - I don’t ever recall hearing requests that the Mass be said in vernacular - not once. We bought a missal, learned in school/catechism classes, and didn’t have to memorize or learn an entire language. We responded in Latin and had the translation in whatever our country’s language was on the opposite side of the page. And we worshipped God - at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It wasn’t a hootenanny, folk song sing-along. It was The Last Supper - and Calvary. It’s the same in any language - and commands our ultimate respect and reverence.

I find it interesting in reading posts that (a) Canon Law required priests to be instructed in Latin? (b) despite good intentions to vernacularize the Mass, I’m guessing that the 20th/21st Century has not seen the likes of this Mass dispute - perhaps since Cranmer’s Table and Protestant Reformation. Doesn’t that spell anything out - to anybody? and (c) nobody wants to give Latin a try. In school, we study languages we may never use - just to get extra credit or maybe expand our knowledge…But for our Faith? It’s got to be the easy way. No effort to apply ourselves to learn something more.

What was so difficult about the Mass as we knew it for centuries? Millions prayed it daily - in Latin - with reverence and no complaint. Now that we have vernacular Mass for a multi-cultured society, we see Churches falling into disrepair and closing due to lack of funds. No one can blame the Latin Mass. There’s got to be a message in that for all of us.