Ditching meat for a vegan diet risks 'dumbing down' the next generation,

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abucs said:
I think it is a fair argument that the plant based diet is relatively new in the history of our species
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When, in the history of our species, do you think that Africa and Asia - or Eastern Europe, for that matter - went to their relatively meat free diet?
 
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I think the most surprising to me was the low meat consumption percentage in Eastern Europe. I would have thought it would have been higher. However, there is an old joke in Russia back to the Soviet day’s that C.C.C.P. Actually stood for Cucumbers, Cabbage, Carrots and Potatoes, which even today appears in a lot of meals.
 
I would disagree that plant base foods are a relatively new addition to man’s diet. They are finding more and more evidence in archaeological digs that plants were a significant part of early Cro-Magnon and even Neanderthal diets. Before they were agriculturists they were deemed “Hunter and Gatherers”not just “Hunters”. As I said earlier people were opportunists and took advantage of what was available. In the northern climates meat probably played a more significant role in the winter months but they would have readily taken advantage of available fruits and tubers in due season if nothing else for a bodily need of nutrients.

In regard to declining health, as time passed and they became cultivators of the land it did not mean a decrease in health. Early man typically didn’t live long due to parasites, injuries and communicable diseases. Regarding meat itself, red meat is well known today as a perpetrator of inflammation and arthritis and gout. Many Neanderthal remains show evidence of arthritic condition. In modern time we see an increase of diseases such as diabetes, heart disease and cancer. One reason of course is we are living longer through medical advances allowing us time to develop these diseases. However, we also see much more use of refined simple sugars and increase of saturated fat intake. Complex carbohydrates aren’t bad, they are good. They break down slowly and give sustained supply of energy due to the fiber content and lignins present . Refined sugars are much more quickly absorbed and cause a quick uptick in insulin release. Our brains and body needs carbs but it’s complex carbs it needs. The initial weight loss success of paleo type diets is due 1) decreased calories, 2) Ketosis where the carbs are flushed out as well as a lot of water and pumped out through the kidneys and the body then looks for another energy source which happens to be fat. That oftentimes results in headaches, ands heavy load on the kidneys. The increased protein intake on these diet also taxes the kidney as the human body is only able to process a certain amount of protein over a given period of time . The rest is flushed out of the body as waste.
 
The dumbing-down has already reached its maximum, so there is no possible risk. I don’t think vegan is nutritionally sound in the growing years but MAY be a healthier diet in the middle and later years. The (nutritional) jury is still out on this issue.
 
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dvdjs said:
When, in the history of our species, do you think that Africa and Asia - or Eastern Europe, for that matter - went to their relatively meat free diet?
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Well it makes sense that this would be when people domesticated large animals to plow the land and learned the basics of sowing seed for the future.

History of agriculture
 
Yes I understand there are differing views on the historical diets. The fruits we have today have been cultivated from all around the world and have been heavily enhanced from what was available thousands of years ago.

I recently watched a lecture on YouTube of someone making the opposite case to yours. If I find it, I’ll post here for your viewing and/or comments.
 
Well we know that meat is a great source of protein.
What non meat food of 25,000 years ago would people gather to access more protein than that of meat?
 
Apparently, the results of this have been called into question, not only because Dr. Emma Derbyshire is a member of the Meat Advisory Panel (which, on its own, would simply be an ad hominem), but also because it doesn’t seem to match the evidence:
According to Professor emeritus of Nutrition and Dietetics at King’s College London, Professor Tom Sanders, it is possible to get enough choline plant-based foods.

“Choline can be made in the body and it is also abundant in many plant foods including soybeans,” he said.

"There is no justification for suggesting that plant based diet risk damaging brain development. My own research on vegans and those of others in Europe and USA find the growth and development of vegans and vegetarians is normal…

Dr. Garth Davis…said: "Truly low choline levels would cause fatty liver BUT vegans have lower incidence of fatty liver. Choline deficiency could cause neurological problems BUT vegans have LESS dementia and Alzheimer’s…
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dvdjs said:
Sorry, ACS, not NIH. See post #14. It answers your question about non-meat food sources of protein.
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Yes but these foods in their modern form are not going to be available in such numbers say 25,000 or 50,000 years ago to be a greater source of protein than meat.

Aren’t those figures from your link for protein intake for modern times?

For example, in most of Asia today people get much of their protein from rice but rice was only cultivated in China from about 8000 years ago.
 
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Beans, grains, nuts are all good sources of protein. Nuts also contain a notable content of unsaturated fats providing bountiful calories. Protein has been highly overhyped as how much you need. Basically your body can intake only about 35 gms of protein/ meal. Pretty much anything beyond that is passes through the kidneys and out of the body. In a normal day on a plant based diet I am getting 140-170 gms a day with no muscle loss. I am still making good gains. I’ve been doing Well for decades.

They have even found that a protein shortage (kwashiorkor disease)probably doesn’t exist. What does probably exist is a caloric intake shortage. When provided sufficient calories the symptoms disappear regardless of protein content. Today the milk and dairy industry are good marketers we are also led to believe we are somehow all struggling to get our protein requirements. Every drug store, grocery store and nutrition store is packed with shelf after shelf of overpriced protein supplements. Good grief how could you not get enough protein.? Many people are eating meat three meals a day.

If a person likes meat then eat it that is that individuals choice. That doesn’t bother me. What I dispute is that it isn’t necessary to eat meat to get the protein we need. A person should eat it if you really like it or can’t seem to do without it. It’s not essential.
 
JW55 said:
If a person likes meat then eat it that is that individuals choice. That doesn’t bother me. What I dispute is that it isn’t necessary to eat meat to get the protein we need. A person should eat it if you really like it or can’t seem to do without it. It’s not essential.
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Well there are lots of vegans and vegetarians today so I would expect you would be correct.
 
I worry about climate change about as much as about unhappy animals.

I.e. exactly as much as I worry about getting kicked by a blue unicorn.
 
As an organic plant based vegan, I have excellent health. AND, based on yearly blood test results, I do take some supplements as needed. Instead of complaining about not getting enough nutrients w/o eating meat, just take choline, if you are concerned about it. Or, just eat small amounts of animal products, especially if child-bearing. Eating animal products in excess, like the standard American diet will cause bodily and planetary demise = a rather dumbed-down way of existence.
 
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I’ve been a vegetarian all my adult life, we have a vegetarian home, my daughters were brought up vegetarian and, despite never suggesting to others that they should be vegetarians, we had to put up with the same sort of nonsense about the vegetarian diet as vegans have to put up with now.

In the UK, the growth in the numbers of people not eating meat at all or eating a higher proportion of non-animal-based foods makes it inevitable that the meat industry will respond in the same sorts of ways that the tobacco industry, sugar industry and oil industry respond to challenges.

There is a blindingly obvious fad diet food health problem around with huge health challenges in store for those who adhere to it. It’s called obesity, the trouble is that the food industry is making an awful lot of money out of it.
 
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Cereal grains, pulse crops, soy, mushrooms, and crucifereous vegetables are very good sources of choline.
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Thread should have ended here, really.

Honestly the fact that a lot of the modern meat eating diet consists of red meat, processed meat and fast food, and the fact that the spread of this diet is contributing heavily to global meat consumption, really puts to bed any health concerns regarding veganism.
 
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