If the law has not been given, no crime/sin can be committed knowingly. Hence a messenger is required.Could we understand Divine justice? Without that the sentence given in the day of judgment is meaningless. If we can understand Divine justice then why we need a messenger to tell us what is wrong and what is good? We can try to understand it without Divine intervention.
But you can derive what sin is if you could know divine justice. We will never understand what was the reason for punishment and reward otherwise. That is very sad and meaningless.If the law has not been given, no crime/sin can be committed knowingly. Hence a messenger is required.
Chicken vs egg? How can one derive what sin is if not given Divine law? How would the notion of divine justice arise on its own? You still need a yardstick to compare i.e.this is good, that is bad.But you can derive what sin is if you could know divine justice. We will never understand what was the reason for punishment and reward otherwise. That is very sad and meaningless.
Personally I think you will find that at our judgement we will judge ourselves,** in the light of the Divine presence.** I’ll admit the reason I say that is due to personal experience (and therefore a personal bias) in that the night he died, my father turned up in my room.Could we understand Divine justice? Without that the sentence given in the day of judgment is meaningless. If we can understand Divine justice then why we need a messenger to tell us what is wrong and what is good? We can try to understand it without Divine intervention.
The ability to distinguish right from wrong and to sentence from God point of view.What would it mean to “know divine justice”? I’m not sure I understand.
I do’t think so.Chicken vs egg?
Sin is what prohibited by divine law. Divine justice is different from divine law. Divine justice can be defined as the ability to distinguish right from wrong and to sentence from God point of view. Divine laws is a set of allowed and prohibited acts.How can one derive what sin is if not given Divine law?
Divine laws are derived from Divine justice. Divine justice does not arise from anywhere. It is one intrinsic attribute of God. Like free will.How would the notion of divine justice arise on its own? You still need a yardstick to compare i.e.this is good, that is bad.
I understand what you are saying. But why we should be guilty of our actions or thoughts if we could not distinguish right from wrong due to absence of light of the Divine presence?Personally I think you will find that at our judgement we will judge ourselves,** in the light of the Divine presence.** I’ll admit the reason I say that is due to personal experience (and therefore a personal bias) in that the night he died, my father turned up in my room.
It was obvious the real focus that attracted his gaze (and at times caused him to try to hide his face behind his hands) wasn’t me. It was something behind and above me. If I turned around to see what he was looking at, all I could see was the wall.
However at times he made statements like “I’ve wrecked everything!”; “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you!”; “I can’t believe how cruel and stupid I’ve been”; “All I was expected to do was to look after my own family and I didn’t even do that!”.
Yet these were statements that in his normal, natural self he wouldn’t have admitted to in a million years. He’d have blamed us - me, my mother, my sister, somebody else. Yet suddenly here he is seeing himself as he really was, and not only that, admitting it.
He was judging himself, but only in the light of the divine presence. Left to himself, he wouldn’t have admitted these things. So, “No, we can’t understand it without divine intervention”, as our natural state is in rebellion to God, and we’re blind, or partly blind, to our own faults and sins.
So you feel guilty of your action because God define right and wrong for you rather than really understand why your action is right or wrong. Such a incomplete creation, human.No, the human intellect cannot absolutely define good and evil. Only the creator of good and evil, Allah, can absolutely define good and evil. We cannot be certain on good and evil without the aid of divine revelation.
We can distinguish right from wrong without the Divine presence. Ask a criminal gang member what he thinks about another gang member stealing from him, and you’ll get a very forthright definition of a crime in progress.I understand what you are saying. But why we should be guilty of our actions or thoughts if we could not distinguish right from wrong due to absence of light of the Divine presence?
Pilate knew very well what he should be doing, but justified his actions by washing his hands of the whole thing.“Then You are a king?” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.” **“What is truth?” Pilate asked. **
Guilt is created in us by Allah, when we perform actions against the fitra. Disobedience to Allah is the common aspect in all evils.So you feel guilty of your action because God define right and wrong for you rather than really understand why your action is right or wrong. Such a incomplete creation, human.
It is not about distinguishing right from wrong. It is about understanding why things are right or wrong.We can distinguish right from wrong without the Divine presence.
Well, we cannot do much more rather than accepting what is right or wrong as people define it for us unless we engage to an intellectual activity to understand otherwise. To be honest there is no difference between Divine laws and the laws in a gang group since both of them are enforced based on force and power.Ask a criminal gang member what he thinks about another gang member stealing from him, and you’ll get a very forthright definition of a crime in progress.
There is always room for justifying things if we learn how to evade reason.What he won’t do is admit to his own wrong-doing. He’ll justify it.
The tension between personal interest and Divine laws has always existed. The question is why there should be such a tendency within us to go against Divine laws.And that’s what humanity does - we engage in evil behaviour when we know all along what right behaviour is, but try to justify it.
Ok, I can buy that.Guilt is created in us by Allah, when we perform actions against the fitra.
We are intellectual beings therefore we avoid wrong things naturally. There is a potential in us to disobey God if we are not able to understand right from wrong. That is not our fault.Disobedience to Allah is the common aspect in all evils.
That is why there is no moral obligation on us should we have never heard of the revelation of Allah. Allah does not punish those unless they have been informed/warned first.There is a potential in us to disobey God if we are not able to understand right from wrong. That is not our fault.
You didn’t get my point so I repeat my argument: We are intellectual beings therefore we avoid wrong things naturally. There is a potential in us to disobey God if we are not able to understand right from wrong. That is not our fault therefore it is God fault.That is why there is no moral obligation on us should we have never heard of the revelation of Allah. Allah does not punish those unless they have been informed/warned first.
Your dilemma lies in your assumption of a god similar to contingent beings, by making it obligatory upon Him to reward good and punish evil and doing what is best for creation; essentially making Him a servant of His own creation. Such a god is deficient, and that is impossible, for nothing contingent would ever come into existence, and it is self evident that is not the case.You didn’t get my point so I repeat my argument: We are intellectual beings therefore we avoid wrong things naturally. There is a potential in us to disobey God if we are not able to understand right from wrong. That is not our fault therefore it is God fault.
Nah, my dilemma lies on the fact that we are not able to intellectually understand right from wrong therefore there is a potential in us to do wrong, what God prohibited. This means that we are not responsible for our wrong act since we naturally avoid wrong act (if we understand it) since we are rational.Your dilemma lies in your assumption of a god similar to contingent beings, by making it obligatory upon Him to reward good and punish evil and doing what is best for creation; essentially making Him a servant of His own creation. Such a god is deficient, and that is impossible, for nothing contingent would ever come into existence, and it is self evident that is not the case.