Divine Liturgy

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DominvsVobiscvm:
I owe no such thing. The Melkite Patriarchs’ propensity to schism and heretical ecclesiology has ben well-documented on these forums, and, surprisngly, by Father Ambrose.

Until I see documentation to the contrary I stand by my remarks.
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I see you are back to your old ways.

I guess becuase you are maligning a Byzantine hierarch we can not expect much discipline of you here.

Seems your upset that His Beatitude acts as a patriarch rather than a subordinate.
I don’t quite know how to put my finger on it. I’ve yet to atted a Byzantine Catholic liturgy that wasn’t abridged, or that did not include Latinizations like holy water fonts, kneelers, stations of the cross, First Communion classes (for 7 year-olds), etc.

In most of the Byzantine parishes I’ve attended, the priests exhibits a sort of minimalism with the way he celebrates the liturgy.

But, as I’ve note, things are getting better. The Ukranian parish nearby is very authentic-looking (the liturgy is exactly the same as the one at the local Ukranian Orthodox Church) and the Byzantine-Ruthenian parish closest to me is getting better and better every year (my friend was just ordained a deacon there).

I haven’t been to the local Melkite one, but I’ve been told its extremely Latinized.
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I do not think you really have any standing to complain. As for latinizations, these are the traditions of the older crowd at our churches and it is not very pastoral in nature to just throw them out. It will take time to correct the latinizations. Afterall the blame for such things falls squarely on the shoulders of the hierarchs of the Latin Church.
The Maronite and Syro-Malabar parishes are Latinized to the extreme, and don’t celebrate their liturgies with any sense of reverence or solemnity. Liturgy is facing the people, and it rather resembles a Novus Ordo with but different words.
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This is very obnoxious and judgemental of you. I really get mad when people point out how others are not reverent enough. Seems very pharisaical of you.

How about you clean up your church’s act before you start trying to tell us about ours?

As for the mime, if that is what is there, it just doesn’t look right. Maybe the picture was edited. Can not really trust all the pictures you find on the 'net.
 
Hey, I’m not complaining, just making some general observations.

You Eastern Catholics really need to lighten up.
Seems your upset that His Beatitude acts as a patriarch rather than a subordinate.
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Patriarchs are subordinate to the Pope. Period. This is Catholic dogma. Period.

The Pope is not simply “First Among Equals.” Yes, there is an orthodox Catholic sense in which this title can be understood, but interpreted as it is by the Orthodox, and apparently by the current Melkite Patriarch, it is heretical.
 
Psalm45:9:
The only difference is the Byzantine Catholics will have prayers for the Pope in the Liturgy, whereas the Eastern Orthodox will not.
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Actually, if the liturgies are done “as they should be” the only one to commemorate the Pope would be the heads of the churches.

That is at a parish the priest should commemorate his hierarch, which sould be the bishop of that eparchy. The bishop would commemorate the Metropolitian (or Patriarch or Major Archbishop), the Metropolitian (or Patriarch or Major Archbishop) would commemorate the Holy Father.

We have gotten away from this tradition because we want to show that we are in communion.
 
Are you sure, ByaCath?

I’ve been to Antiochene Orthodox parish liturgies, and I’m 99.9% sure that they comemmorate their Patriarchs, in addition to their bishop, whereas by your reading it would appear they should only comemmorate their bishop.

I ask this out of interest and curiosity, not because I want to contradict or discredit you.

🙂
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Are you sure, ByaCath?

I’ve been to Antiochene Orthodox parish liturgies, and I’m 99.9% sure that they comemmorate their Patriarchs, in addition to their bishop, whereas by your reading it would appear they should only comemmorate their bishop.

I ask this out of interest and curiosity, not because I want to contradict or discredit you.

🙂
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Yes, this is true. I have discussed this with one of the professors/priests that teach at our seminary.

This is something that all of the Byzantine Churches have moved away from, but Traditionally this is how it was done.

I am not saything that anything is wrong with the way it is done now, just that this is not how it has always been done.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
I owe no such thing. The Melkite Patriarchs’ propensity to schism and heretical ecclesiology has ben well-documented on these forums, and, surprisngly, by Father Ambrose.

Until I see documentation to the contrary I stand by my remarks.
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Eric,

I don’t know how one documents adherence to the Magisterium. It seems to me, rather, that one alleging heretical ecclesiology and schismatic acts on the part of a high-ranking prelate of the Catholic Church has the burden to document his charges.

I also see that you’ve now extended your allegations to the plural. Having personally met and known the incumbent Patriarch, His Beatitude Gregory III, as well his two immediate predecessors, His Beatitude Maximos IV, the champion of the Eastern Churches at Vatican II, and the much-beloved His Beatitude Maximos V, both of blessed memory, I categorically deny your allegations and will be pleased to refute them if you advance any “proof” of same.
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DominvsVobiscvm:
I don’t quite know how to put my finger on it. I’ve yet to atted a Byzantine Catholic liturgy that wasn’t abridged, or that did not include Latinizations like holy water fonts, kneelers, stations of the cross, First Communion classes (for 7 year-olds), etc.
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Pews and kneelers continue to exist and likely will for some time in many Eastern Catholic churches (as, in fact, they do in many Orthodox churches), although more of them are disappearing all the time. Frankly, they are among the least of my concerns as latinizations. Stations of the Cross are infrequently encountered these days, except in Ukrainian Catholic churches; even there, I doubt you’ll find the devotion being exercised, although the stations may still be on the wall. Holy water fonts still are mounted at a lot of entrances - although dry in most instances these days. First Communion classes - very hard to find except, again, at some Ukrainian Catholic parishes - and those are few and far between.

You are young, Eric, and you have no idea how far most of these parishes have come over the past 4 decades - in that time, centuries of latinization have been swept away - and credit for much of that is attributable (in their own Church, as well in as other Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches) to the Melkite Patriarchs, whom you’ve seen fit to label schismatic and heretical.
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DominvsVobiscvm:
In most of the Byzantine parishes I’ve attended, the priests exhibits a sort of minimalism with the way he celebrates the liturgy.

…

I haven’t been to the local Melkite one, but I’ve been told its extremely Latinized.
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I won’t deny that minimalism still exists, although it is being actively addressed by every Eastern Catholic eparchy of which I’m aware and is very much less in evidence than it once was.

St. Jude’s in Miami is not particularly latinized to the best of my knowledge. Right Rev. Archimandrite & Patriarchal Exarch John Haddad, BSO, of blessed memory, who was the Pastor there for many years, was a long-time friend of mine, a very liturgically-observant priest, and committed to a return of the Melkite Church to its heritage. The current pastor there has possibly the most magnificent voice you will ever hear chant the Divine Liturgy.

(continued)
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
The Maronite and Syro-Malabar parishes are Latinized to the extreme, and don’t celebrate their liturgies with any sense of reverence or solemnity. Liturgy is facing the people, and it rather resembles a Novus Ordo with but different words.
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I would dispute your description of the Maronite Service of the Holy Mysteries and the Syro-Malabarese Holy Qurbono as being without solemnity or reverence, although I will concede the extreme latinization of both.

The Maronites, in an effort to prove their Catholicity, long centuries ago surrendered their Antiochian heritage to the French missionaries with such zeal that it has been difficult for them to even begin to recover the authentic form of their liturgical celebration. They have struggled with this task since the days of the Patriarchs Michael and Sarkis Rizzi, both of blessed memory, in the late 16th century.

So little remains to document its original form that they have had to look to the ritual form of their Syriac cousins in an effort to recreate what has been lost. However, even as they actively work to achieve this (e.g., now allowing and actively encouraging celebrant and congregation to face East), there still remains much mystery and beauty in their liturgical use of Aramaic and in such simple things as the haunting effect of the priest’s prayer of farewell to the Holy Table, unique to them and the Syriacs …
Remain now in peace, O Holy Altar of God… I know not whether I will be able to return to you again to offer this Sacrifice
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.

The Syro-Malabarese face, if possible, a more daunting task. Portuguese missioners were incredibly thorough in destruction of their liturgical texts, leaving virtually nothing in the way of documentation on which to fall back for reference. That the Chaldean/Assyrian Rites are likely closest in form to what is lost, given that it was from an Assyrian heritage that their Christianity was nutured, has created issues in and of itself. Efforts to use the Chaldean model as a basis on which to restore the Syro-Malabarese liturgical form has encountered significant opposition. Both clergy and laity - with no point of historical reference to the contrary - perceive the present form of their liturgical worship as being consonant with their Indian heritage. Cultural resistence to what is seen as an attempt to “Chaldeanize” their Liturgy has been a divisive factor in reform efforts for a decade and a half now.

So, prayers for the success of our Maronite and Syro-Malabarese brethren’s efforts to achieve a return to a purer, more traditional form of their liturgical usage are a more appropriate attitude to take than criticism by a young Latin who speaks of the East with little real knowledge or understanding of what it has been through or how difficult it has been to achieve what we have now.

Many years,

Neil
 
DV,

Many thanks for posting the link to the Visoki Dekani Monastery… it certainly put my mind at ease!

This is a clear example of how one photo, when taken out of context, can put an unwarranted “spin” on an entire situation. I confess to being extremely puzzled by what I thought I saw in the photo - the thought of a “doctored” photo did, in fact, cross my mind. Obviously, when viewing this photo within the context of the others, the illusion I thought I saw was just that - an illusion. My apologies to all for my hasty post.

Neil & David - thank you for taking the time to do what I should have done - looking a little closer at the photo before posting. I humbly add this to the long list of instances where you guys stepped in and bailed me out. Once again, I’m truly appreciative.

Guess these old Ruthenian eyes can use a new pair of glasses! 😃

a pilgrim
 
a pilgrim:
Guess these old Ruthenian eyes can use a new pair of glasses! 😃
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Al,

I wrote to Santa, he’ll be leaving them under the tree 😃

May you and your family have a blessed and joyous Christmas, my brother, and a happy and healthy New Year.

Many years,

Neil
 
Thank you brother Neil,

It amazes me how many of my fellow Roman Catholic brethern are uneducated regarding the Eastern Church, they are quite the one’s to judge something they know very little about.

james, a Traditional Roman Catholic that respects his Eastern brethern, and loves them deeply, for they rescued me, and brought me back from the darkness.
 
Irish Melkite:
Al,

I wrote to Santa, he’ll be leaving them under the tree 😃

May you and your family have a blessed and joyous Christmas, my brother, and a happy and healthy New Year.

Many years,

Neil
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Santa??? Don’t you mean St Nicholas?
 
a young Latin who speaks of the East with little real knowledge or understanding of what it has been through or how difficult it has been to achieve what we have now.
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This was unwarranted. I’ve nevr claimed to be an expert on things Eastern, much less the Byzantine liturgy. I know some stuff about the Latin Rite, and much less the Byzantine.

What I can do, however, is compare/contrast my experiences with Easern Catholic/Orthodox worship, and not my observations on a message board. I don’t think anything I said was uncharitable.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
This was unwarranted. I’ve nevr claimed to be an expert on things Eastern, much less the Byzantine liturgy. I know some stuff about the Latin Rite, and much less the Byzantine.

What I can do, however, is compare/contrast my experiences with Easern Catholic/Orthodox worship, and not my observations on a message board. I don’t think anything I said was uncharitable.
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Hmmm, guess its just me, or maybe just a few of us, who view the following as uncharitable…
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DominvsVobiscvm:
If only the Melkite Patriarch wasn’t a quasi-schismatic . . .
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DominvsVobiscvm:
I owe no such thing. The Melkite Patriarchs’ propensity to schism and heretical ecclesiology has ben well-documented on these forums, and, surprisngly, by Father Ambrose.
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DominvsVobiscvm:
The Maronite and Syro-Malabar parishes are Latinized to the extreme, and don’t celebrate their liturgies with any sense of reverence or solemnity. Liturgy is facing the people, and it rather resembles a Novus Ordo with but different words.
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All of these can be viewed as being uncharitable as in the first two quotes you slander a hierarch of the Catholic Church with no proof of your statements and even if you could show something you are in no position to say someone is in schism (or is schismatic) as the Church is the sole authority that can do so.

In the last quote you make some very judgemental comments as to how reverent some solemn the litrugies are at another Church. Again, something that you even admit is outside of your expertise in your last reply.
 
If only the Melkite Patriarch wasn’t a quasi-schismatic . . .
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What about “schismatically inclined”? I don’t know how else to put it. The last couple of Melkite Patriarchs simply do not adhere to the Catholic teaching on ecclesiology. I’m just calling it as it is.
The Maronite and Syro-Malabar parishes are Latinized to the extreme, and don’t celebrate their liturgies with any sense of reverence or solemnity. Liturgy is facing the people, and it rather resembles a Novus Ordo with but different words.
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I thought it was clear from the context that I was speaking of these liturgies as they are celebrated near me. I was not speaking of them in general.

In fact, I understand that in Lebanon and India these rites are celebrated quite reverently.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
What about “schismatically inclined”? I don’t know how else to put it. The last couple of Melkite Patriarchs simply do not adhere to the Catholic teaching on ecclesiology. I’m just calling it as it is.
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Again, proof… The Catholic Church does not seem to agree with you on this…
 
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