Divine worship and the rise of ‘feel-good liturgy’

[cothrige]

I’ve noticed that if I don’t hold hands with the people next to me during the Our Father, they seem offended when it comes time to shake hands. Holding hands with strangers is so uncomfortable. Men don’t hold hands. A lone man and woman, standing next to each other as strangers, will also find it very uncomfortable to suddenly hold hands. I wish we could get rid of that practice.

I have had this same experience. Kind of ironic that people will avoid exchanging peace with people in the very instances in which it seems most proper. Instead they would rather go and hug people who they have had no complaints about and have no need to “restore” any peace with.

 

[ethelzguy]

Yeah. I can relate. I’d like a more quiet, solemn Mass, along those lines. Less noise, fewer activities, more communion with God. I’ve often wondered how some of the new gestures and procedures snuck into the Mass. Where did hand-holding come from? Where did the outward extension of one’s arm at the greeting come from? Where did introductions before Mass come from? What’s next?

Most people who support this stuff usually quip, “early Church…early Church.” I’m getting suspicious of that claim. I think a lot of it is faddish, ‘feel-good’ stuff.

Many “new” things are just rehash of “old” things…styles of cars, clothing, furniture, music, even “buzz-words/phrases” in our lives and times…

Why would the same not be true for some religious customs? The Truth is the Truth, always…but customs and disciplines can and do change with time.

 

[ethelzguy]

Feelings are fleeting. Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to pooh-pooh them, but, if we make how we feel the end all and the be all of the Mass, then we have entirely missed the point.

How might one reconcile this statement with the oft-repeated commentary that they drive “x” miles every Sunday past “y” number of other Catholic Churches, in order to attend a Mass that they feel is appropriate for them?

 

[Molly2000z]

It would be, oh so nice, if we actually did some reading and discussing of issues related to traditional Catholicism. But we both know that, that isn’t how it seems to work here.

Thread titles and OPs almost always carry some self-righteous snipe at the post Vatican II church or the NO/OF Mass.

The percentage of threads in this subforum that denigrate the Church today or it’s clergy in some way is disgusting. Denigrating the Church and/or it’s clergy hardly constitutes “Tradtional Catholicism”

It certainly seems that way. As for me, I prefer a feel good liturgy to a feel bad one any day of the week. And I do so without apology.
Why on Earth would anyone want to feel bad at Church?

 

[Molly2000z]

I’ve noticed that if I don’t hold hands with the people next to me during the Our Father, they seem offended when it comes time to shake hands. Holding hands with strangers is so uncomfortable. Men don’t hold hands. A lone man and woman, standing next to each other as strangers, will also find it very uncomfortable to suddenly hold hands. I wish we could get rid of that practice.

I don’t know why you don’t want to hold hands during prayer.
We always do that when we say grace at meals. It doesn’t mean that the men of the family secretly want to date each other, just that they want that human connection with each other.
What connotation are you putting on the holding of hands during prayer?
For me, this gives us a sense of community which is what Mass is all about, worshipping with our fellow believers.
In the Early days of the Church men would kiss each other in greeting, that custom still continues to this day in parts of the Mid East, I remember seeing Danny Thomas do it once on TV.

 

[Julianna]

I don’t know why you don’t want to hold hands during prayer.
We always do that when we say grace at meals. It doesn’t mean that the men of the family secretly want to date each other, just that they want that human connection with each other.
What connotation are you putting on the holding of hands during prayer?
For me, this gives us a sense of community which is what Mass is all about, worshipping with our fellow believers.
In the Early days of the Church men would kiss each other in greeting, that custom still continues to this day in parts of the Mid East, I remember seeing Danny Thomas do it once on TV.

It depends which Mass you attend. In my former parish SC, the 8 am Sunday were mostly seniors…sparsely attended…no hand holding,no choir, no singing.

The 9:15 Mass was the “family” Mass…singing (Haugen and Haas music)…crowded, loud, shaking hands in greeting at the beginning of the Mass, holding hands (mostly just the family in the pews)…and sign of peace towards the end. Big choir, all responses are sung…

11:00 am Mass for the late sleepers and again, old school seniors…no singing, no choir…organ music…quiet…moderate in attendance.

5:00 Sat night…mostly families with young children, like 7-10 yrs old, or couples, no children and few empty nesters. In and out…quick Mass.

6:00 Sunday night…high school CCD from 4-5, then the kids attend Mass. Mostly teenagers, blue jeans, tennis shoes, t-shirts…choir, holding hands, sign of peace…not many parents with the kids…again Haugen Haas music…I don’t recall any guitars.

Parish in Massachusetts…teens gathered on Sunday at 9:00 for CCD class…10 Mass. Guitars…drums…keyboards…this was 1970-1975…modern music…overhead projector, folding chairs…well attended…packed out.

Parish in NC…similar Masses…not as varied.

 

[Cat]

I don’t know why you don’t want to hold hands during prayer.
We always do that when we say grace at meals. It doesn’t mean that the men of the family secretly want to date each other, just that they want that human connection with each other.
What connotation are you putting on the holding of hands during prayer?
For me, this gives us a sense of community which is what Mass is all about, worshipping with our fellow believers.
In the Early days of the Church men would kiss each other in greeting, that custom still continues to this day in parts of the Mid East, I remember seeing Danny Thomas do it once on TV.

The reason on this forum that I’ve heard against hand-holding is that “The Mass is a sacrifice, not a meal.”

Well, my answer to that is this: If I were standing at the foot of a cross (or any instrument of execution) watching my Beloved suffering a horrific death, I would hold hands with those standing with me. I would do this in a human attempt to draw on the strength of others who shared my grief and pain.

When you attend a funeral of a loved one, do you not hold hands with your relatives, supporting each other, grieving with each other? Or if you visit a dying relative at the hospital, do you not hold hands to try to gain a little strength? We do, and we are not a family given to physical displays of affection. But in an awful situation like the death of a loved, yes, we hold hands. It’s just human instinct, drawing close to those we love during a tragedy.

 

[ethelzguy]

Haugen and Haas music

…again Haugen Haas music…

I’m in the mood for ice cream

 

[KingAlfred]

It certainly seems that way. As for me, I prefer a feel good liturgy to a feel bad one any day of the week. And I do so without apology.
Why on Earth would anyone want to feel bad at Church?

Same here. And we have to be realistic. People need and seek inspiration. Inspiration is a major aspect of any religion. Christianity rebuilt the West through a series of never-ending revivals. Mass should be inspiring. We should leave Mass motivated to go out and fight the Good Fight. If one truly believes, one will try to evangelize and spread the faith. Our messengers must be inspired, and eager to serve with* passion*. It isn’t about ‘them’, but the *greater cause *of Christianity.

Every cause needs LEADERS, and LEADERSHIP, and a crusading spirit. We can’t have any of those things if our ceremonies and educational programs are drab, boring, and negative. By the same token, however, they shouldn’t be wild, crazy, unmanaged and done in poor taste. There is an art to all of this. Art inspires, motivates and satisfies.

I work hard every school day to breathe life into World History, to inspire my students to want to learn more. There are people in society who argue that no, students don’t need to be inspired, but simply scolded and reminded of the consequences of failure. These people are wrong – dead-wrong. The fact is that all successful people, in every walk of life, everywhere, need inspiration. It’s a basic, human need. *Jesus inspired His followers, most dramatically. *

 

[CradleCath]

It would be, oh so nice, if we actually did some reading and discussing of issues related to traditional Catholicism. But we both know that, that isn’t how it seems to work here.

Thread titles and OPs almost always carry some self-righteous snipe at the post Vatican II church or the NO/OF Mass.

The percentage of threads in this subforum that denigrate the Church today or it’s clergy in some way is disgusting. Denigrating the Church and/or it’s clergy hardly constitutes “Tradtional Catholicism”

You are answering a poster who sent an article about Philosopher Laurence Paul Hemming’s, thoughts on the Liturgy. Perhaps it would be wise for you to either discuss Hemming’s words or maintain a polite silence…OR…find another forum that doesn’t raise your blood pressure as much as this one seems to.

 

[CradleCath]

I agree.

I certainly don’t like reading posts that trash the Pope, clergy or the Church.

That being said, there is a difference between, on the one hand, bashing the Church and on the other hand, taking issue with prudential decisions that those in the Church have made. The latter is entirely acceptable, so long as it is done in a way that is respectful. Both Dr. Hemming and Alcuin Reid fit into the second category. They offer legitimate criticism in a respectful manner, and that is why I posted the review. No bait or bash intended.

Pay no attention. There are one or two posters who are always on this forum, are always the “victim”, are always disruptive & never contribute anything of value.

I personally thought that the aritcle you gave to the forum to read was excellent. While I read every word, followed your link…the thoughts that I can **most **agree with are these:

The role of Sacred Scripture in the life of the Church is another area in which his** liturgical theology **makes serious and important claims. In short, he points out - and at last someone has had the courage and clarity to do this - that “the liturgy is the proper ground of Scripture (and not the other way round, ie the false view that the liturgy derives from Scripture),” or, put more simply, in the modern understanding of the relationship between the liturgy and scripture, “scripture has lost its ground”.

The difference in the THEOLOGY of the Novus Ordo Mass & the Tridentine Mass is so great, that I don’t see how anyone can miss it.

One Mass in it’s entirety…the words, the actions, the prayers, the vestments & the ambience found in Traditional liturgy speaks of the Sacrifice of Christ. It speaks of atonement & humility. The other Mass…not so much.

 

[ethelzguy]

find another forum that doesn’t raise your blood pressure as much as this one seems to.

If posts and posters that denigrate the Church, it’s clergy, or the Mass in any form doesn’t get your blood pressure up, then something is wrong with you.

The OP and I are not at odds. We have exchanged thoughts and moved forward.

 

[CradleCath]

I have read the Holy Father’s three books on the liturgy. While he doesn’t necessarily refer to “feel-good liturgy” in those words, he decries Masses where the congregation celebrates itself. I take this to mean “feel-good” liturgies.

Feelings are fleeting. Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to pooh-pooh them, but, if we make how we feel the end all and the be all of the Mass, then we have entirely missed the point.

A properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, with all of its majesty, dignity, solemnity and sobriety, brings about a deeper experience that penetrates down to the depths of the soul. This may not happen all of the time and we shouldn’t “feel” disappointed if this experience doesn’t happen to us.

However, when it does, it makes a powerful impact. And, as Cardinal Arinze noted in one of his speeches, it moves the heart so profoundly that it brings about a conversion.

During the Mass the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and the entire Church, the Church Triumphant, the Church Militant and the Church Suffering, come together as one. That is a fact routinely ignored by those who stress the “community”. We can’t see the saints and the souls in purgatory, but, they are present with us.

If I just want a “feel-good” experience, I can watch a replay of the Spurs’ 2007 NBA Championship game, where they won the title. That’s a “feel-good” experience. If I want a “feel-good” experience that is way stronger than that, I’ll watch an online replay of the day that Pope Benedict was elected to the Chair of St. Peter. That is an awesomely incredible “feel-good” experience.

But, if I want to encounter the Triune God in all of his Majesty, then I go to Mass and participate in divine worship.

This message is so beautiful, so “right on”, so descriptive of the Mass (or what the Mass should be)…that I have printed it out to share with my children. Thank You.

 

[KingAlfred]

I don’t know why you don’t want to hold hands during prayer.
We always do that when we say grace at meals. It doesn’t mean that the men of the family secretly want to date each other, just that they want that human connection with each other.
What connotation are you putting on the holding of hands during prayer?
For me, this gives us a sense of community which is what Mass is all about, worshipping with our fellow believers.
In the Early days of the Church men would kiss each other in greeting, that custom still continues to this day in parts of the Mid East, I remember seeing Danny Thomas do it once on TV.

I agree with you. I actually don’t have a problem holding hands with strangers. It’s just that I can tell that it makes other people uncomfortable, and I don’t like being the source of someone else’s discomfort. Does that make sense? It’s sort of nutty, I know, and yes, I’m reading too much into it, but I just wish we didn’t have to do it. The hand-shaking is okay. I’m probably being too self-conscious.

 

[KingAlfred]

Is there a ‘Doctor Feelgood’ here? Or…how about a *‘Doctor of Love’? *

“They call me DOCTOR LOVE, I am the DOCTOR OF LOVE – the doctor you been dream’n of.”
– The Kiss Band :extrahappy: :bounce:

 

[Molly2000z]

Same here. And we have to be realistic. People need and seek inspiration. Inspiration is a major aspect of any religion. Christianity rebuilt the West through a series of never-ending revivals. Mass should be inspiring. We should leave Mass motivated to go out and fight the Good Fight. If one truly believes, one will try to evangelize and spread the faith. Our messengers must be inspired, and eager to serve with* passion*. It isn’t about ‘them’, but the *greater cause *of Christianity.

Every cause needs LEADERS, and LEADERSHIP, and a crusading spirit. We can’t have any of those things if our ceremonies and educational programs are drab, boring, and negative. By the same token, however, they shouldn’t be wild, crazy, unmanaged and done in poor taste. There is an art to all of this. Art inspires, motivates and satisfies.

I work hard every school day to breathe life into World History, to inspire my students to want to learn more. There are people in society who argue that no, students don’t need to be inspired, but simply scolded and reminded of the consequences of failure. These people are wrong – dead-wrong. The fact is that all successful people, in every walk of life, everywhere, need inspiration. It’s a basic, human need. *Jesus inspired His followers, most dramatically. *

I had two teachers like you, but unfortunately not in History or Geography. I had to learn both of those subjects on my own after I got out of school.
There is so much TO
World History.
I had NO idea until I started reading on my own about the Tudor period that Henry the 8th’s first wife was the daughter of Isabella and Ferdinand! !
I may have been taught that but no one really brought it HOME to me, I guess.
Knowing that changed my view of Henry and of Mary.
My really inspirational teachers were my Biology teacher and my Spanish teacher.
To this day, I speak a pidgin Spanish because she was so inspiring.
And I only studied for one year and that was about forty years ago.

 

[Molly2000z]

I agree with you. I actually don’t have a problem holding hands with strangers. It’s just that I can tell that it makes other people uncomfortable, and I don’t like being the source of someone else’s discomfort. Does that make sense? It’s sort of nutty, I know, and yes, I’m reading too much into it, but I just wish we didn’t have to do it. The hand-shaking is okay. I’m probably being too self-conscious.

The first time I saw Danny Thomas kiss another performer I was shocked, but then it was explained to me that this was the way folks greeted each other in his childhood.
I love the sense of community I get when I hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer.
It’s like for a minute, we ARE one body!
That makes me feel very strong in my Faith.
The idea that other men may feel uncomfortable just shows a sensitivity that I may have not understood at first.
Maybe it’s a guy thing and I wouldn’t understand anyway!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

The first time I saw Danny Thomas kiss another performer I was shocked, but then it was explained to me that this was the way folks greeted each other in his childhood.
I love the sense of community I get when I hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer.
It’s like for a minute, we ARE one body!
That makes me feel very strong in my Faith.
The idea that other men may feel uncomfortable just shows a sensitivity that I may have not understood at first.
Maybe it’s a guy thing and I wouldn’t understand anyway!

Yea, it may be a guy thing. It sometimes seems that women are often the ones the most comfortable holding hands and who like the sign of peace more.

To me, the handholding feels forced. And no, it doesn’t really bring me any closer to anyone at all since it is forced (which would be unlike what happens at a funeral).

On the other hand, when I attend the TLM, particularly with beautiful Gregorian chant, I find that brings me closer to the other parishioners on one level as our genuine love for the liturgy and our appreciation for it instantly gives us something in common.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Thanks to the OP for the review by Dom Alcuin Reid. There’s hardly a liturgical expert (other than Fr. Aidan Nichols) alive today I respect more.

If anyone wants to get the book, it is available now at Amazon UK:

amazon.co.uk/dp/0860124606?tag=ourladyofther-21&camp=1406&creative=6394&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0860124606&adid=01VRYD76XH1Z5J27T0PW&

It won’t be available on Amazon stateside until August 15 (but you can pre-order now).

 

[CradleCath]

How might one reconcile this statement with the oft-repeated commentary that they drive “x” miles every Sunday past “y” number of other Catholic Churches, in order to attend a Mass that they feel is appropriate for them?

For me, it wasn’t about how the Traditional Latin Mass made me feel…as in an “emotional high”. It was because a study of the Novus Ordo Mass showed me that something was missing. And, I knew this both intellectually & emotionally. As a lifelong Catholic, who attended the TLM. Mass for 20 years, my** spirit **knew that the N.O. was lacking. How it knew, I haven’t a clue. How does one know, instinctively how to swim? How does a bird know how & when to build a nest?

At fiirst, when the new Mass was given to us, I never gave a thought to the fact that it might not be the best. The Church had never let me down in any liturgical area. I just trusted. After a few years, I thought that it was me & that if I just tried harder I would come to see God within this Mass, as I did within the Tridentine. Forty years & that never happened. The first Sunday that I attended the Mass of the Ages, I instinctively** knew **(not felt) that this was right.