Divine worship and the rise of ‘feel-good liturgy’

[CradleCath]

I’ve noticed that if I don’t hold hands with the people next to me during the Our Father, they seem offended when it comes time to shake hands. Holding hands with strangers is so uncomfortable. Men don’t hold hands. A lone man and woman, standing next to each other as strangers, will also find it very uncomfortable to suddenly hold hands. I wish we could get rid of that practice.

I think that holding hands with a stranger may be, as you say, more uncomfortable for men (my husband is definitely not at ease with that), but it’s difficult for women sometimes, too. Holding hands, traditionally is part of the courtship “ritual” & it doesn’t seem to fit naturally into the Mass.

I’m was all for fellowship within my Novus Ordo parish, but it needs to occur over coffee & doughnuts, after Mass.

PS. I can remember when, as a 14 year old, I saw my parents walking down the street, holding hands. I was so embarrassed & prayed that none of my friends were anywhere close, for they might see them.
After all, they were OLD PEOPLE…about 45 yrs. old, 20 yrs. younger than I am now.

 

[Molly2000z]

If posts and posters that denigrate the Church, it’s clergy, or the Mass in any form doesn’t get your blood pressure up, then something is wrong with you.

The OP and I are not at odds. We have exchanged thoughts and moved forward.

No one should get high blood pressure!
It’s treacherous.
It sneaks up on us and makes stroke a possibility.
So breathe deep and then post.

 

[Molly2000z]

I think that holding hands with a stranger may be, as you say, more uncomfortable for men (my husband is definitely not at ease with that), but it’s difficult for women sometimes, too. Holding hands, traditionally is part of the courtship “ritual” & it doesn’t seem to fit naturally into the Mass.

I’m was all for fellowship within my Novus Ordo parish, but it needs to occur over coffee & doughnuts, after Mass.

PS. I can remember when, as a 14 year old, I saw my parents walking down the street, holding hands. I was so embarrassed & prayed that none of my friends were anywhere close, for they might see them.
After all, they were OLD PEOPLE…about 45 yrs. old, 20 yrs. younger than I am now.

Oh that’s funny!
I have no problem holding hands. Although it may seem to be
a courting ritual to you, it’s something my family does when we pray.
We’ve also done a circle prayer, just standing in a circle and praying and none of the men say “eww…I don’t want to hold HIS hand!” LOL!
I’m not sure what novus ordo parish is. I just go to the regular Mass at a regular parish. No Latin acronyms.
I think if my Mass were a Coca Cola is would be CLASSIC.

 

[KingAlfred]

I had two teachers like you, but unfortunately not in History or Geography. I had to learn both of those subjects on my own after I got out of school.
There is so much TO
World History.
I had NO idea until I started reading on my own about the Tudor period that Henry the 8th’s first wife was the daughter of Isabella and Ferdinand! !
I may have been taught that but no one really brought it HOME to me, I guess.
Knowing that changed my view of Henry and of Mary.
My really inspirational teachers were my Biology teacher and my Spanish teacher.
To this day, I speak a pidgin Spanish because she was so inspiring.
And I only studied for one year and that was about forty years ago.

Yes…we must inspire America’s youth! Hooaaahhh!!!

 

[KingAlfred]

I think that holding hands with a stranger may be, as you say, more uncomfortable for men (my husband is definitely not at ease with that), but it’s difficult for women sometimes, too. Holding hands, traditionally is part of the courtship “ritual” & it doesn’t seem to fit naturally into the Mass.

I’m was all for fellowship within my Novus Ordo parish, but it needs to occur over coffee & doughnuts, after Mass.

PS. I can remember when, as a 14 year old, I saw my parents walking down the street, holding hands. I was so embarrassed & prayed that none of my friends were anywhere close, for they might see them.
After all, they were OLD PEOPLE…about 45 yrs. old, 20 yrs. younger than I am now.

Yeah…and there are cultural barriers, too. Culture gets in the way. For example, I would never kiss another man, which is customary, as somebody pointed out earlier, in the Middle East. Forget it. No way. Not even under direct orders from the Pope, hypothetically. Never.

 

[Molly2000z]

Yes…we must inspire America’s youth! Hooaaahhh!!!

In re-reading my post I am concerned that I didn’t make myself clear.
I was referring to Henry the Eighth and his daughter by Catherine, Mary. Not OUR Mary, the mother of Jesus.

 

[benedictgal]

How might one reconcile this statement with the oft-repeated commentary that they drive “x” miles every Sunday past “y” number of other Catholic Churches, in order to attend a Mass that they feel is appropriate for them?

You have either misread my post or are misjudging the comments altogether. Every Catholic has the right to a Mass that is celebrated according to the norms and rubrics the Church requires. If that isn’t happening where you are, then, it’s time to shake the dust off your sandals and move elsewhere.

What I am referring to is the fact that if we make emotions our sole basis for the Mass, then, we have missed the boat entirely. It doesn’t matter how I’m feeling. What matters is that I am there and that God is there and that I am spending time with Him. I could have had a very bad day and may not feel like going, but, that’s beside the point. It’s not about me, it’s about Him. Unfortunately, with the way the focus is on the community, of late, we have made it more about ourselves than about God.

 

[bobzills]

Is this simply just another “cut and paste”, “bait and bash” thread?

Not really. I feel pretty good about the points being made.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Why can we not get off the issue of the mass!!! :banghead: All masses are equal. They all present Jesus true and real physically. If people express their love of God different than you do get over it!!! You get so caught up on the rules like the pharisees that you may as well stone all the people who are different. At least these people are getting something out of these masses!

 

[bobzills]

All masses are equal.

I think that some Masses are more respectful than others. Do I need to provide examples?

 

[benedictgal]

I think that some Masses are more respectful than others. Do I need to provide examples?

In theory, the Mass is supposed to be celebrated in the same manner all throughout the world. This holds true for both the East and the West.

However, the degree of reverence and fidelity to the norms is highly suspect and questionable. I’ve been to places in the same city where the difference is as distinct as night and day, to the point where I wondered if I was even in a Catholic Church. There are reverent OF celebrations and then there are those where anything goes and the rubrics are thrown out the door.

Even two priests stationed at the same parish can have radically different Masses. One priest emphasizes the community and has everyone do a meet and greet before the Mass. The PV, on the other hand, prays his office in front of the Blessed Sacrament and instills an atmosphere of sacred silence before the Mass begins, with no meet and greet and little, to no, announcements.

Therefore, there are differences, some minor, some very sharp. Some priests emphasize the horizontal and make it more important than the vertical. But, as I told one of my fellow parishioners, inamuch as the horizontal is important, look at the crucifix. Which line is longer, the vertical or the horizontal? She said, “The veritcal”. Then, that’s where our focus needs to be. Remember the first Commandment. It’s love God with all of your heart. Loving God means offering him the finest worship we can render to him. Only after loving God can we love our neighbor.

 

[bobzills]

In theory, the Mass is supposed to be celebrated in the same manner all throughout the world. This holds true for both the East and the West.

However, the degree of reverence and fidelity to the norms is highly suspect and questionable. I’ve been to places in the same city where the difference is as distinct as night and day, to the point where I wondered if I was even in a Catholic Church. There are reverent OF celebrations and then there are those where anything goes and the rubrics are thrown out the door.

Even two priests stationed at the same parish can have radically different Masses. One priest emphasizes the community and has everyone do a meet and greet before the Mass. The PV, on the other hand, prays his office in front of the Blessed Sacrament and instills an atmosphere of sacred silence before the Mass begins, with no meet and greet and little, to no, announcements.

Therefore, there are differences, some minor, some very sharp. Some priests emphasize the horizontal and make it more important than the vertical. But, as I told one of my fellow parishioners, inamuch as the horizontal is important, look at the crucifix. Which line is longer, the vertical or the horizontal? She said, “The veritcal”. Then, that’s where our focus needs to be. Remember the first Commandment. It’s love God with all of your heart. Loving God means offering him the finest worship we can render to him. Only after loving God can we love our neighbor.

However, others emphasize the diagonal line and others the crooked line.
And where is it written down and mandated that “the Mass is supposed to be celebrated in the same manner all throughout the world”. ?

 

[benedictgal]

However, others emphasize the diagonal line and others the crooked line.
And where is it written down and mandated that “the Mass is supposed to be celebrated in the same manner all throughout the world”. ?

Try reading the General Instruction for the Roman Misssal. Granted, there are some adaptations adopted by the various Episcopal Conferences around the world, with the necessary recogitio from the Holy See, but, in essence, the format is the same, or, at least, it’s supposed to be the same.

In the EF, there was pretty much no deviation, nor adapation, if any. The Mass was celebrated the same way at St. Peter’s Basilica as it was in a missionary hut in some African missionary outpost.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

All masses are equal.

I do not agree. Cain and Abel first stumbled upon this problem.

 

[bobzills]

Try reading the General Instruction for the Roman Misssal. Granted, there are some adaptations adopted by the various Episcopal Conferences around the world, with the necessary recogitio from the Holy See, but, in essence, the format is the same, or, at least, it’s supposed to be the same.

In the EF, there was pretty much no deviation, nor adapation, if any. The Mass was celebrated the same way at St. Peter’s Basilica as it was in a missionary hut in some African missionary outpost.

I don;t see where anyone was ever excommunicated for having a clown Mass or a mariachi band Mass? In our local Church there was a Chinese dragon Mass, where a Chinese dragon goes in a zig zag line thru the Church during the Mass. Now I have the greatest respect for the Chinese people and their customs. Certainly, many of their customs are admirable and many Chinese are people of high character and good and decent morality. However, where I would disagree with this zigzag line of the Chinese dragon, is the teaching given by a Catholic nun that you will get good luck if you touch the Chinese dragon as it zigzags through the Church during the Mass. I believe that this is a novelty that was not taught before Vatican II.

 

[ethelzguy]

In the EF, there was pretty much no deviation, nor adapation, if any. The Mass was celebrated the same way at St. Peter’s Basilica as it was in a missionary hut in some African missionary outpost.

Nice rhetoric, but not likely reality. Mass in a small rural parish was not the same as it would be at a cathedral. The small rural parish did not have the same facilities. Many did not even have an organ.

 

[KingAlfred]

In re-reading my post I am concerned that I didn’t make myself clear.
I was referring to Henry the Eighth and his daughter by Catherine, Mary. Not OUR Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Cool.

 

[KingAlfred]

We attended a very nice Mass at a new church yesterday. The Church runs a private school, and some of the students sang. They did a great job. The music was excellent.

 

[CradleCath]

Yes, I would agree with that as well. From what I read here, those that faithfully attend the TLM do so because it makes them feel “right” about their form of worship. Maybe “good” isn’t the term I would use, but perhaps “right” or “spiritually fulfilled”?

I must disagree with this. I attended the Novus Ordo from the late 60’s until 2,008…40 yrs. &, for the past 20 of those years, it didn’t make me “feel good” to do so.

Sometimes one just makes a choice, because it’s the right thing to do, under the circumstances.

 

[SJP]

It’s good to see that this thread has remained civil… good points on all sides!