Divine worship and the rise of ‘feel-good liturgy’

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Auntie_M said:
Sorry, Dear (here we go again) But I have heard it said in the way I quoted a whole lot more than the way Van Hildebrand says it.
The part I have highlighted, (and maybe I am reading it wrong) but seems to me to be saying the same thing. It’s HOW it makes YOU feel.(in essence, he is asking how the new mass makes you feel)

You are in control of your feelings, you don’t need “something” to make you “feel”. You CAN “feel” reverence just looking at God’s creation, the ocean, the waterfall, the flowers, trees. etc.
It is a state of being that YOU choose. You don’t NEED something to MAKE you feel that way. God’s glory is sufficient.
It is really a state of mind. 😃

(Oh well, messed up a good score, still love ya, anyway)😃
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I think what von Hildebrand is saying is that when something is truly great, it evokes a sense of reverence or awe. This is something communicated to the human spirit and can’t be equated with mere feelings. I would liken it to standing in front of a great work of art. One gets a sense of awe and wonderment being in contact with something which is inherently great. This awe is something beyond mere feeling. If someone does not reverence something great, such as simply dismissing (not that you do) the TLM with Gregorian chant, it is a problem with that person, not the liturgy. Just as if someone does not properly reverence a great work of art, it is not the art that is lacking.

And of course the Church, particularly at the Council of Trent, has encouraged the use of statues, art, incense, music and other things precisely because we are not disembodied spirits and these things are a help to us to properly reverence what in actuality takes place at Mass.

However, just to give another example of how traditionalists I read don’t rely on “the TLM is better because it makes me feel good” argument here is a link to the Ottaviani Intervention which traditionalists cite all the time:

latin-mass-society.org/study.htm

I think anyone reading it will readily see that an argument regarding feelings is not part of the package at all. And of course I could multiply these examples but unfortunately I can’t attach books to my post.
 
Auntie_M said:
Sorry, dear, but I don’t follow your train of thought??? Please explain what a “lemming” is. don’t recall ever hearing that word.

But I was actually talking to another poster, you weren’t interrupting, were you?:confused:
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Commenting on a forum isn’t “interrupting”. If you want to have a private talk, try PMing.
 
ethelzguy said:
What do rodents have to do with the liturgy? 🤷
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Haha… wow. You never cease to amaze.
ethelzguy said:
Then, how do you explain those who violently reject the OF in favor of driving long distances to attend an EF? Obviously the EF gives them some “feeling” that the OF does not?

Mass is a sacrifice offered to God, regardless of the form.
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My post said that worship is not “all about” a “feeling”. Did I say anything about people choosing one usage of the rite over another?

Furthermore, despite the many doctorates you might have in psychology, it’s really pretentious of you to pretend to know why people choose the TLM. Maybe it’s because the TLM tends to be celebrated according to the rubric? Maybe the silence in the rite objectively helps them to pray? Maybe they dislike the translation errors that come with the use of vernacular?

But, oh no, if people choose one thing over another, it’s always for the “feeling” right? That’s “obviously” true… until you learn to think at above a 4th grade level.
 
ethelzguy said:
You still haven’t explained what a rodent has to do with the liturgy? :rolleyes:

Or were you just name-calling? 🤷
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It is really nice to talk with you, it seems we are on the same plane, going the same speed and the same direction.
…
Said one lemming to the other.
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Do you know anything about the behavior of lemmings?
 
Rosewith said:
I find that the *ordinary rite *expresses the Faith more validly. And so does most of the Church. If you need to have the Trid rite to feel better, I don’t grudge you, but why must the pro-Trids be so hostile and abrasive? This is what puts me off the whole alternate rite thing. Why do you feel you need to make your case with caricature and mockery? It is, after all, the official Eucharistic rite of the Church you claim as your own.
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Hi Rosewith -

As I was reading this thread I came across a number of responses just like yours. Indeed, I will agree, that a number of traditionalists come off as abrasive sometimes (I’ve noticed it myself sometimes) but at the same time, I have a similar scenario:

Just yesterday I had the misfortune of attending a Life Teen Mass at church near my house. Given that it was inevitable due to circumstances that prevented me from even getting to a NO Mass nearby, I walked. Now, this is a big church - a REALLY big church, probably 3-4 thousand families, typical “modern” looking hall, no statues, no crucifix, etc etc. Typical life teen “rock band” style mass, everyone holding hands. A very touchy-feely, “nice” atmosphere and welcoming to teens, right? Yet I have never gotten more angry stares than when I knelt during the consecration (I sat on the far end) and after Mass a few folks approached me to tell me that that isn’t how one is “supposed to act” at their parish. Right.

So take a moment and ask yourself if there is something wrong here? Have the “reforms” finally gone too far in these cases? Can you see why traditionalists might be frustrated and upset when something like this happens? And if so, might the right response be a prayerful consideration of the attitude in some of these churches rather than spreading the blame to other groups instead?
 
Miles_Mariae said:
Apparently you are unable to make basic connections between ideas. Buddy, you can pester someone else with your petty belligerence. This is me

washing my hands

of you.

Laters.
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And you wonder why traditionalist Catholics get labeled as self-righteous and arrogant. :rotfl:
 
ethelzguy said:
And you wonder why traditionalist Catholics get labeled as self-righteous and arrogant. :rotfl:
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Yeah, I do. But when people like you are doing the labeling, well, I just write it off as irrationality and carry on 🙂
 
ethelzguy said:
So, it is your position that Paul VI was neither wise, nor prudent? 🤷
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2 fallacies:
  1. Criticizing an end product does not attach the same criticisms to the maker of that product.
  2. Negation of the conjunction does not result in conjunction of the negations.
That emoticon suits you.
 
Miles_Mariae said:
Said one lemming to the other.

😃 I don’t mean to imply anything about you personally, but it was there and I had to take it.
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Since you refused to explain what you meant and what a "lemming" is. I looked it up, (as I said, I had never heard of it)

Why would someone who calls themselves a “Christian” resort to name calling.** I assure you I am NOT an Artic Rodent**.

I am very offended, and I am waiting for an apology.

This is one of the things that puts such a bad taste in people’s mouths concerning Traditionalist. I have never heard anything like this coming from a “modernist”. But I am to believe that the Traditionalist/TLM is making people more reverent and showing God more love by doing his will???:nope:

I am sorry…but I perfer someone holding my hand in mass to someone referring to me as a RODENT!!!:yup:

This is just beyond my comprehension!!! You said you don’t mean to imply anything about me personally? HOW IS THIS NOT???:tsktsk:

Please explain your statement.“But it was there and I had to take it?”

I will repost this until you answer…😦
 
Miles_Mariae said:
Yeah, I do. But when people like you are doing the labeling, well, I just write it off as irrationality and carry on 🙂
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Please refer to YOUR post where you called ethelzguy and myself a “lemming” (ARTIC RODENT)

Aren’t YOU doing the same thing/ or worse!!!

If YOU can resort to name calling as this, but others can’t.
Definitely a “Holier Than Thou” Attitude.

I would be ashamed if I were you. Were YOU NOT taught manners!!! (No need to answer that question, as that is pretty evident)

I’m from the old school, If you were mine, we’d be going “out behind the barn”. !!! And then coming in to wash your mouth out with soap…literally!!!

Shame on you!!!:mad:
 
I don’t know if this helps, but there used to be a computer game called “lemmings” where the main point of the game is that the lemmings would follow each other into peril and you had to prevent them from doing so by blocking the way.

I’m not condoning the comments on either side, but generally when I hear the term “lemming” used, it is used to indicate someone who follows others without thinking.
 
Thanks for the “computer game explaination”. But I assure you, I am old enough not to “follow without thinking”. Anyone that would jump to that conclusion would be judging another, which is also not our job.

There is WAY TOO much bitterness/hatred on these threads. I do wonder what some non Catholics trying to learn about the faith would say.

This is Ridiculous…

What it really sounds like to me…scenerio

2 kids talking…“My Dad can beat up your Dad, or My Mom is
prettier than your mom…etc…etc…”

Does sound familiar!!! All this is nothing but kindergarden behavior.

What are we REALLY doing to our Church.

Going to a “reverent” mass of any kind and then coming here to blast another is not really helping anyone’s soul.
 
Hello Everyone, 🙂
I have a question specifically directed to those who are more liturgically traditional than some (those who prefer the TLM …etc.). Do you think that;
A. all churches around the world should immediately abandon various liturgical forms in favor of only Gregorian Chant
B. there should be a slow phasing out of the other liturgical music,
C. chant should simply be made reasonably available to all who seek such a liturgy ?

I mean to be, in no way, condescending with this question…I am really interested in your responses…and I look forward to them. 🙂
 
HealedOne said:
Hello Everyone, 🙂
I have a question specifically directed to those who are more liturgically traditional than some (those who prefer the TLM …etc.). Do you think that;
A. all churches around the world should immediately abandon various liturgical forms in favor of only Gregorian Chant
B. there should be a slow phasing out of the other liturgical music,
C. chant should simply be made reasonably available to all who seek such a liturgy ?

I mean to be, in no way, condescending with this question…I am really interested in your responses…and I look forward to them. 🙂
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A. yes, in the Western rite.
B. yes, in the Western or Roman rite.
C. I am not sure I understand the question.
 
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