Divorce and Communion

[NewEnglandPriest]

Thanks Father for patiently persevering in this conversation. I am sincerely seeking to understand how you and others are looking at the relationship between divorce and the Eucharist.

What you’re failing to see is that this is not about how you or I or anyone is “looking at the relationship between divorce and the Eucharist.” This is about how the Church views the situation. Civil divorce does not lead to a canonical penalty, thus it is between the individual and their confessor/spiritual director.

The Church clearly lays out that civil divorce is not always a grave offense and that it is indeed sometimes necessary. Each situation is unique to itself and thus needs one-on-one discussion to adequately be answered.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Good afternoon rainbow and Joanofarc,

I’ll have to cut this short as I’m heading out to pick kids up from school.

The term “ex” is used as slang for “former spouse.”

Using the term says, “The woman was my wife, but is no longer my wife. She is my former wife.”

If a valid marriage never occured then the woman never was my wife. A faithful Catholic could describe her as “my ex civil wife.” For, civilly, she was my wife. It may take an extra fraction of a breath of our lives to use this additional word. It may be slightly inconvenient to have to type 5 extra letters. But the Truth warrents it.

Mrs. Campanella, in her book The Gift of Self refers to this on page 18.

*“Ex” It is common to say “ex-husband,” “ex-wife,” or “ex-spouse.” This gives the impression of a relationship which has ceased altogether----something which is impossible within the bounds of the sacrament of matrimony.

“Broken Family” It would be more apt and charitable to say “wounded family,” and not give children the idea they are somehow bereft of hope. What is more, “all things work for the good for those who love God,” (Romans 8:28), so there is no situation which cannot be transfigured by His mysterious love when presented to Him with humility and a contrite heart.*

St. Monica is an awesome model for those who are in difficult marriages. She reminds me so much of Joseph. Who was sold by his own brothers into slavery but remained faithful to God and recognized that what his brothers meant for evil for him, God meant for good in his life. And Joseph consequently saved the lives of many, many people. We are to model this as well… and help to save the lives… the eternal lives… of many, many people. Including our spouses and children. Can I get an “amen” St. Augustine!!

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Actually this is not completely true either. There still was a natural albeit putative marriage. It does not change the fact that that person at one point in a person’s life lived as another person’s spouse. That is why children are not made bastards by annulment.

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello Father,

I am a slow learner and am still trying to understand what you are saying…

Are you saying that the Catholic Church tells Newton (in the most recent example) that he, himself (with the help of the spiritual director of his choice), can determine that he is really not sinning by abandoning his family? And that, if he determines this, then his abandonment of his family really isn’t sinful at all and he can approach Holy Communion worthily without confessing and repenting of anything?

Civil divorce does not lead to a canonical penalty, thus it is between the individual and their confessor/spiritual director.

Is this also true for contraception? Would you also say, “Contraception does not lead to a canonical penalty, thus it is between the individuals and their confessor/spiritual director.”

Or maybe the grave sin of contraception does have a “canonical penalty” that the grave sin of divorce does not?

The Church clearly lays out that civil divorce is not always a grave offense and that it is indeed sometimes necessary.

…If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense (ccc 2383).

Are there instances in your state where this is true? Instances where a civil divorce really is the only possible way? There is no “legal separation” or something similar that would provide the needed protections referred to here? The reason that this is so important is that when you are civilly divorced almost everyone around you considers you to no longer be married and therefore free to date other people and start using terms like “ex-spouse.” You are diagnosed with the dreaded “obsessive” label and told that you “just can’t let go” simply because you remain faithful to your vows. (Which is weird when people who profess to be followers of Christ say this… for this is how Christ faithfully loves them… why wouldn’t we faithfully love our spouse this way?)

I would think that a confessor/spiritual director would want to make himself aware of the civil laws (or at least have a trusted attorney available to answer questions) so that they could give proper guidance. If a spiritual director is helping someone reach the conclusion that they could, in their special situation, civilly divorce their spouse to protect something and/or someone, then wouldn’t it be important to know if civil divorce really is the “only possible way” to protect that something and/or someone?"

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[joanofarc2008]

There are a few states that do not recognize legal separation. The military also does not recognize legal separation of spouses for purposes of BAH and several other benefits.

 

[dochawk]

Great stuff dochawk, I have only had a few courses in the subject… maybe I’ll let you do the analysis… it would take me digging up the old books. But, I think I only claimed that the sample size was adequate. I didn’t claim that it is representative. I am willing to listen to your reasoning for why you think it would not be representative. (I.E. the cases appealed to the Roman Rota are different than the cases not appealed because…?)

When different choices are made, it would suggest that there is something different between the samples.

Unless appeals are chosen at random, there is no basis for stating what the sample represents.

It would be quite reasonable to begin with the notion that the more “unusual” cases, or those with “odd” outcomes, we’re the most likely to be appealed.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Are you saying that the Catholic Church tells Newton (in the most recent example) that he, himself (with the help of the spiritual director of his choice), can determine that he is really not sinning by abandoning his family? And that, if he determines this, then his abandonment of his family really isn’t sinful at all and he can approach Holy Communion worthily without confessing and repenting of anything?

Like I said, each situation is different. Each situation needs to be addressed based on its particular set of circumstances.

As previously pointed out, the Church even recognizes that some invalidly married couples may be able to apply for brother/sister relationship status and receive communion. So there’s as many unique situations as there are divorced/separated couples.

…If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense (ccc 2383).

Are there instances in your state where this is true? Instances where a civil divorce really is the only possible way?

I’m not a civil legal expert nor did I stay a Holiday Inn last night. People involved in the situation will contact their proper attorneys and figure it out from there. Clergy who don’t have law degrees shouldn’t offer legal advice other than “discuss, x, y, or z with your lawyer…”

 

[FCGeorge]

Father, first of all, I laughed out loud at the Holiday Inn thing. Thanks, I’m glad we can inject a little humor into this without taking away from the seriousness of the fact that because of grave sins like divorce souls are “going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.” (A little quote from St. Benedict Joseph Labre that I was reminded of this morning as I headed out into a Midwestern winter mist.)

I don’t consider it “offering legal advise” to ask the person, “Have you checked with an attorney to determine if there is something that will provide the needed protection without having to civilly divorce?”

I consider this an action of a priest who truly desires to help someone obey the Church’s teaching on when a civil divorce could actually be filed for without contravening God’s moral law. I consider this an action of a priest who truly cares for souls.

Again we have to understand how much more temptation comes the way of someone who is “civilly divorced” in our culture. I’m sure that must be difficult to appreciate that unless you have actually experienced it. You even have Christian family members, even some Catholic family members, who really think that you should start dating other people. You know, to help you “feel better” and to “get over” something that they falsely believe has ended.

Father, I’m sure I’m being thick-skulled but I still do not understand what you are saying. Yes, “each situation is different.” However, I believe that there are Truths that applies to EVERY situation.

Let’s take and example of a “situation.” Sure, Jackie wasn’t the perfect wife, but she committed no grave offense against Newton. None of the following were anywhere close to being present…

Reasons for separation, therefore, are those actions that seriously damage any of these principles. Consequently, the reasons for separation may be reduced to these four headings: adultery, grave bodily harm to the spouse or children, grave spiritual harm to the spouse or children, desertion.
Instituto Martin de Azpilcueta. Code of Canon Law Annotated Second edition revised and updated of the 6th Spanish language edition.Woodridge, IL: Midwest Theological Forum, 2004. ISBN 1-890177-44-X

Newton felt that Jackie harped on him too much and Newton got sick of it. He wanted to be able to stay out later with the “bud’s.” He was no longer “in love” with Jackie.

Are you saying that Newton can go to a “spiritual advisor” and determine that he could separate from Jackie? And that he would then be committing no grave offense because he, himself, believes it to be no grave offense? That he can even choose to abandon Jackie and then partake of Holy Communion?

Do you also believe that a married couple can pray and meet with a “spiritual advisor” about the use of contraception and then determine that it is okay for them to use contraception to avoid having children and still be able to worthily receive our Blessed Lord’s Body and Blood?

Answering this contraception question might help me to understand how you are looking at this. I have heard and read that there are priests out there counseling people this way.

Thanks.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[joanofarc2008]

Bryan - I am wondering would you be less offended if instead of referring to my xh as my xh I started referring to him as my ah - or attempted husband? I’m not joking - I am trying to gauge where your mind is at this point in the conversation and yes I have been trying to wrap my mind around that one from yesterday or the day before still. So I know at this point I am couple pages behind.

 

[batman1973]

If I may, I’d like to add my question in reguards to this topic. My first wife is a Mormon. At the time of our marriage, I had left Mormonism, and joined the Methodist Church. We divorced 13 years later. I’m now remarried to a LCMS Lutheran, however, I want to join the Catholic Church. Would I still need to have the marriage to my 1st wife annulled?

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello dochawk,

I am in correspondence regularly with three women who have requested/are requesting that their court of second instance be the Roman Rota. This is not because their cases are “unusual” or had “odd outcomes.” Actually, the outcomes to their cases were the typical, “We, the American tribunal, say that you are not validly married because of a lack discretion of judgment or some cause of a psychological nature.” (A “1095-special”)

These women simply believe that they are validly married and want to be sure that the truth is found. They see the data and do not trust the American tribunals to find the truth.

They love their spouse’s soul. And they love their children and pray that their children can have confidence that one day when they commit to give themselves to their spouses in Holy Matrimony that they will not need to fear that 7 years later they will be told, “Surprise! We, the all knowing and seeing experts, say that you and/or your spouse lacked ‘proper discretion of judgment’ so you are not really married!”

Also, I have been corresponding with a guy named Karl who is an actual example of someone (like the late Robert Vasoli) who was told by an American tribunal, “You are not married,” and then asked that the Roman Rota be the court of second instance and was told by them, “The American tribunal is wrong, you are married.” Karl knew he was married and desired that the truth be found. He did his research and found that when the local archdiocese hears the second instance then the decision of the first court is, almost without exception, simply rubber stamped. Karl saw that the Roman Rota, however, did not do this. When the Roman Rota reviews the American “1095 specials” they find that the American tribunal’s decision is wrong the vast majority of the time.

I’m sure Karl would love to help anyone out who would like to talk with him. Please let me know privately.

Granted, these are only a few cases, but I find it much more “reasonable” to think that the vast majority of cases are not appealed to the Roman Rota for the second instance because of one or more of the following…

1. The Respondent has never even heard of the Roman Rota (just ask a random sample of Catholics you know and you will see this).
2. The Respondent could not care less what the Catholic Church has to say.
3. The Respondent wants to “move on” and be able to find “fulfillment” with some other partner.

Of course, the Petitioner is not about to insist that the Roman Rota hears the case. The petitioner is typically, “seeking an annulment” and if you are “seeking an annulment” then you are going to go to the place where you will find one… and the American tribunals are about as good a place as any to find one.

It would be quite reasonable to begin with the notion that the more “unusual” cases, or those with “odd” outcomes, we’re the most likely to be appealed.

Please understand that the Roman Rota is not the court of second instance because there is an “odd case” or an “unusual” case. The Roman Rota, for Americans, is only chosen to hear the case if one of the parties wants it to.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[madoll99]

Does anyone know what the procedure is to get an annulment and how long it takes to get the annulment?

 

[couponfit]

Is it possible for a person who has been divorced to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church?

Yes, through doctrine they may receive communion if they are not having sexual relations with another and have received forgiveness for any such past deeds. The divorce itself is not the sin because it’s not considered valid. Rather it’s the adultery which occurs because you’re still married until annulled by the church.

 

[FCGeorge]

*Since divorce laws have proliferated in many countries, the need to request the diocesan bishop’s authorization is a necessary precaution, which prevents the fostering of [civil] trials whose judgments violate precepts of divine law, to the detriment of the spouses and with the risk of scandal to others."
(Code of Canon Law Annotated. page 1324) *

Hey Joanofarc, hope you are well.

Are you saying that this doesn’t apply to the United States?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobinKy
Is it possible for a person who has been divorced to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church?

Yes, through doctrine they may receive communion if they are not having sexual relations with another and have received forgiveness for any such past deeds. The divorce itself is not the sin because it’s not considered valid. Rather it’s the adultery which occurs because you’re still married until annulled by the church.

Hello couponfit,

I am trying to understand how Catholics can make this statement. It’s like, “Hey, you can walk out on your family Saturday night and walk up to our Blessed Lord and receive Him on Sunday morning… as long as you haven’t had sex with anybody after you did the walking out!”

Are you saying that divorce is never a “grave offense?”

*2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: *

Or that it is a “grave offense” that we can commit and still receive Holy Communion?
What other “grave offenses” can we commit and still receive Holy Communion?

(Yes, there are times when a civil divorce is okay…

*2383 …If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. *

When is it okay to claim, in my heart, that I am no longer married to the woman to whom God joined me in marriage?

*DIVORCE: The claim that the indissoluble marriage bond validly entered into between a man and a woman is broken… * Glossary of Catechism

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[figs]

Yes, through doctrine they may receive communion if they are not having sexual relations with another and have received forgiveness for any such past deeds. The divorce itself is not the sin because it’s not considered valid. Rather it’s the adultery which occurs because you’re still married until annulled by the church.

I agree!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If I may, I’d like to add my question in reguards to this topic. My first wife is a Mormon. At the time of our marriage, I had left Mormonism, and joined the Methodist Church. We divorced 13 years later. I’m now remarried to a LCMS Lutheran, however, I want to join the Catholic Church. Would I still need to have the marriage to my 1st wife annulled?

The short answer is: yes.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Does anyone know what the procedure is to get an annulment and how long it takes to get the annulment?

In the USA the usual process is:

1. Meet with local parish priest and complete basic info forms to be submitted to Tribunal.
2. If a canon lawyer at the Tribunal thinks there’s enough to begin a case, the person then meets with them and discusses details of the marriage/divorce and possible witnesses.
3. Testimony is given, witnesses give testimony, Tribunal makes judgment of the grounds for annulment.
4. If Tribunal rules the marriage was null it goes for review to a 2nd Tribunal. If 2nd Tribunal ratifies decision annulment is declared.

Entire process can take up to 2 years but usually around 1-1.5 years.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Yes, “each situation is different.” However, I believe that there are Truths that applies to EVERY situation.

There simply is no blanket statement that can be applied to every divorce. When someone has appeared to break a law the police usually don’t just arrest them on the spot without asking any questions. The police usually ask a series of questions to figure out what is happening and if even though a technical violation of the law took place that perhaps it happened for a good/reasonable reason.

Officer: You know speeding is a serious offense?
Driver: Yes.
Officer: Why are you driving so fast?
Driver: My 8-year-old is locked out of the house and its 5 degrees out.
Officer: OK, I’m not going to give you a ticket, drive safely please.

Do you also believe that a married couple can pray and meet with a “spiritual advisor” about the use of contraception and then determine that it is okay for them to use contraception to avoid having children and still be able to worthily receive our Blessed Lord’s Body and Blood?

If you want to discuss contraception then do so in the Moral Theology forum. Its not applicable to this conversation. Contraception is an intrinsic evil, it can never be justified (except through double effect, but let’s leave that out). Divorce is only immoral based on circumstances.

*Since divorce laws have proliferated in many countries, the need to request the diocesan bishop’s authorization is a necessary precaution, which prevents the fostering of [civil] trials whose judgments violate precepts of divine law, to the detriment of the spouses and with the risk of scandal to others."
(Code of Canon Law Annotated. page 1324) *

The canons that follow clearly allow (and even encourage under certain circumstances) the Bishop to defer the civil effects of divorce to the civil authorities.

These canons are actually new to canon law, the 1917 code only made passing reference to the Bishop’s authority in separation issues. So its not easy to determine exactly how they are to be applied except for how they have been (canon 27). And in the USA the Bishops allow civil authorities to deal with these civil issues. Now, could the Bishops in the USA decide to demand all marriage separation cases go through them? Yes, but they have not.

 

[rainbow1]

Father, first of all, I laughed out loud at the Holiday Inn thing. Thanks, I’m glad we can inject a little humor into this without taking away from the seriousness of the fact that because of grave sins like divorce souls are “going down into the abyss as thick and fast as snowflakes falling in the winter mist.” (A little quote from St. Benedict Joseph Labre that I was reminded of this morning as I headed out into a Midwestern winter mist.)

I don’t consider it “offering legal advise” to ask the person, “Have you checked with an attorney to determine if there is something that will provide the needed protection without having to civilly divorce?”

I consider this an action of a priest who truly desires to help someone obey the Church’s teaching on when a civil divorce could actually be filed for without contravening God’s moral law. I consider this an action of a priest who truly cares for souls.

Again we have to understand how much more temptation comes the way of someone who is “civilly divorced” in our culture. I’m sure that must be difficult to appreciate that unless you have actually experienced it. You even have Christian family members, even some Catholic family members, who really think that you should start dating other people. You know, to help you “feel better” and to “get over” something that they falsely believe has ended.

Father, I’m sure I’m being thick-skulled but I still do not understand what you are saying. Yes, “each situation is different.” However, I believe that there are Truths that applies to EVERY situation.

Let’s take and example of a “situation.” Sure, Jackie wasn’t the perfect wife, but she committed no grave offense against Newton. None of the following were anywhere close to being present…

Reasons for separation, therefore, are those actions that seriously damage any of these principles. Consequently, the reasons for separation may be reduced to these four headings: adultery, grave bodily harm to the spouse or children, grave spiritual harm to the spouse or children, desertion.
Instituto Martin de Azpilcueta. Code of Canon Law Annotated Second edition revised and updated of the 6th Spanish language edition.Woodridge, IL: Midwest Theological Forum, 2004. ISBN 1-890177-44-X

Newton felt that Jackie harped on him too much and Newton got sick of it. He wanted to be able to stay out later with the “bud’s.” He was no longer “in love” with Jackie.

Are you saying that Newton can go to a “spiritual advisor” and determine that he could separate from Jackie? And that he would then be committing no grave offense because he, himself, believes it to be no grave offense? That he can even choose to abandon Jackie and then partake of Holy Communion?

Do you also believe that a married couple can pray and meet with a “spiritual advisor” about the use of contraception and then determine that it is okay for them to use contraception to avoid having children and still be able to worthily receive our Blessed Lord’s Body and Blood?

Answering this contraception question might help me to understand how you are looking at this. I have heard and read that there are priests out there counseling people this way.

Thanks.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Bryan, this is not my experience of civil divorce. I was in a long term very difficult marriage. In fact a priest and a family therapit (who had worked with me for years) both had recommended that I leave. After much inner turmoil, I ultimately decided to stay in the marriage, although there are also issues with staying in a marriage you believe to not be sacramental. My ex husband left, and remarried as soon as the divorce was over. At this point, I think the priest and therapist actually had better vision than I did.
My daily life now, after a civil divorce, consists of raising a child in the faith, going to mass, going to adoration and doing volunteer work for the Church and the community. I do not feel myself faced with large amounts of temptation, and definately not as much as when I was legally married and under alot of duress. I have lots of female and male friends who support or at least respect my views on the sanctity of a holy marriage, chastity, and friendship and do not try in any way to harm me spiritually. My new life is a beautiful thing.
My life has ended up differently than St.Monica’s to whom you have referred, and I am ok with that…and I truly believe God is too. My daughter has a large devotion to her, and I believe St.Monica has been watching out not only me but also on my exhusband who I know also has suffered alot. My largest fear is not Hell, but the fact that so many people live in fear. Fear, it seems to me, is the largest preventative to truly loving. We want people to be able to love, not to close down or shut down due to fear. Jesus told us so many times to not fear. I, like you, would like to see an end to evilness in this world. But after having been in a difficult marriage and the most horrible custody battle and horrendouse abuse in the secular court scene, what I have learned works best for me when faced with evilness is to just hold up our Lord’s love in response, and not to get undone by another person’s (or my own) poor choices. Practicing kindness and bearing with another in patience and forgiveness seems to be what ultimately changes a poor situation into something holy.

 

[joanofarc2008]

*Since divorce laws have proliferated in many countries, the need to request the diocesan bishop’s authorization is a necessary precaution, which prevents the fostering of [civil] trials whose judgments violate precepts of divine law, to the detriment of the spouses and with the risk of scandal to others."
(Code of Canon Law Annotated. page 1324) *

Hey Joanofarc, hope you are well.

Are you saying that this doesn’t apply to the United States?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

I think the two experts have already put in their two cents and I think if you were to call your local diocese today and ask try to find the office that granted permission to seperate you would find it very difficult to find because they would not know where to send you.