Divorce - Annulment - Remarriage

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Itsjustdave,

You hit on the crux of why I am a formercatholic.

This means in very straight terms that:

I may simply walk away from a sacramental, valid marriage to a spouse who wants to be with me and simply by repenting of it in confession and abandoning them and making them subsidize my single but chaste lifestyle I can be in full communion with the Church.

If this Is what the Church teaches then I am more than comfortable that I am a former catholic.

It reduces marriage to nothing.
 
formercatholic,
I may simply walk away from a sacramental, valid marriage …
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If serious reason is lacking, it is morally illicit to “simply walk away” from a sacramental marriage. This is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church. Yet, “Separation from bed and board (divortium imperfectum) is allowed for various causes, especially in the case of adultery or lapse into infidelity or heresy on the part of husband or wife.” (1909 Catholic Encyclopedia, “Divorce (in moral theology)”).

I have no idea what caused your wife to leave you for another. We’ve only heard your side of the story. Nonetheless, your rejection of the Catholic Church indicates to me that you have currently lapsed into serious sin of your own, which is just as much a damnable sin as adultery.

It also seems to me that the doctrine of the Catholic Church is not at fault here. It’s application in this specific instance may be terribly flawed and unjust, but we all have our crosses to carry. As tragic as your story is, I know others in more tragic circumstances who have found the perseverence to remain faithful just the same.

You asked how can remaining in the irregular union be justified. I’ve given my answer.

I presumed that you wanted to discuss the moral implications of the Catholic teaching on the matter. It seems clear that if they are living continently, even if they were at one time adulterous, they are not necessarily adulterous now, especially if they received sacramental absolution, have serious reason to remain together such as raising their children, and receive the sacraments in churches in which they are not known so that they will not create any scandal, continuing to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles.

Also, it seems to me the “children’s Catholic upbringing” is not secondary at all. The Catholic upbringing of her children from your valid marriage AND her children from their invalid marriage seem to be of primary concern, especially given that you have expressly rejected Catholicism.

Any sin can be forgiven excepting one: final impenitence. I pray you don’t fall vicitim to this unforgiveable sin.
 
None of my adult children really practice their faith.

It was pretty much destroyed by our divorce and the annulment process.

I will do whatever I can to sway them to my thinking of staying outside the Church until there are serious changes regarding how the Church deals with divorce, particularly regarding canonical sanctions.

By the way, I think annulments are fine, when they are adjudicated by Rotal standards.

But when a person who is struggling with their commitment and they see a 90-95% success rate for annulments in the U.S., there is heavy incentive to walk away from the marriage, particularly when counseled that way by various priests who do not bother to hear the whole story(as you rightly alluded to before in my case).

There is much more here than has been said, for many reasons. but to be deceptive, I assure you, is not one of the reasons.

I just think that the way the teaching of the Church has changed calls for a thorough review of the brother and sister policy for the reason(s) I detailed. So, while I do not agrree with your post, I am glad to see that you answered it seriously. Thank you.
 
Dear FormerCatholic,

Originally, I did not understand what you were being angry about. You seemed to be angry that the Church did not grant your wife’s request for annulment. Then you insert a comment about “losing everything” into another thread designed to expose the lies about people requesting annulments, making it seem like YOU requested the annulment. But I think I finally have a bead on the situation.

I guess what you are mad about is the fact that the Church is not forcing your wife to separate from her current partner.

I have some questions I hope you don’t mind answering:
  1. Are your wife and her partner allowed to receive communion?
  2. You complain that the Church is allowing the “good of the couple” to override “the good of children,” yet you also indicate that your wife uses “the good of the children”(specifically, her children with him, as well as yours, I’m sure, in her eyes) as an excuse to remain with her partner. Do you or do you not accept your wife’s rationale? If so, what is the reason for your anger against the Church?
  3. Do you suppose it will make anything better if your wife is forced against her will by the Church to return to you?
Your decision and will to be true to your marriage vows is a blessing to hear. Another in a different forum expressed the opinion that it cannot be done. You have amply proven him wrong. Please return to the Church.

God bless,

Greg
 
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formercatholic:
None of my adult children really practice their faith.

It was pretty much destroyed by our divorce and the annulment process.

I will do whatever I can to sway them to my thinking of staying outside the Church until there are serious changes regarding how the Church deals with divorce, particularly regarding canonical sanctions.

By the way, I think annulments are fine, when they are adjudicated by Rotal standards.

But when a person who is struggling with their commitment and they see a 90-95% success rate for annulments in the U.S., there is heavy incentive to walk away from the marriage, particularly when counseled that way by various priests who do not bother to hear the whole story(as you rightly alluded to before in my case).

There is much more here than has been said, for many reasons. but to be deceptive, I assure you, is not one of the reasons.

I just think that the way the teaching of the Church has changed calls for a thorough review of the brother and sister policy for the reason(s) I detailed. So, while I do not agrree with your post, I am glad to see that you answered it seriously. Thank you.
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Please do not encourage your children to stay outside of the Church.If you do not care about going to hell,at least care enough about your kids not to put them at risk.I would also suggest you read about St.Francis he change things by example not by trying to destroy and bad mouth the Church.God Bless and I am sorry you are hurting so bad
 
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formercatholic:
I will remain a former catholic unto death if I must
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First , I want to give you my support in this struggle you find yourself in. It’s devastating eneough to undergo the torment of abandonement and rejection but to not feel the moral support of the Church makes it that much worse.

I think this situation does seem to point out a flaw in the system. Maybe the Sacrament of Matrimony isn’t adequately guarded. I doubt there could be any change that could help you at this point but I wouldn’t like to be abandoned and forced to stay committed to a spouse who is living another life with another family and the moral authority we share is ok with it,even if she supposedly was living according to faith.

I want to say she should not be allowed to live the life she is living now but I can’t justify forcing the two kids she had with the other man into a life that will lack what could be given them.

It kinda boils down to the difficulty that surrounds reconciliation in regards of God having such a high standard and the weight of having it bear down on our shoulders as well.

I do wonder about you and your position. If your complaint is that the Sacrament of Matrimony is vulnerable as it is handled by the Church. Where will you find a better guardian ?
 
Dear GAssisi,
  1. Are your wife and her partner allowed to receive communion?
Not now but I was forced to threaten the ordinary with legal action inside the Church legal system to force him to stop them from before.
  1. You complain that the Church is allowing the “good of the couple” to override “the good of children,” yet you also indicate that your wife uses “the good of the children”(specifically, her children with him, as well as yours, I’m sure, in her eyes) as an excuse to remain with her partner. Do you or do you not accept your wife’s rationale? If so, what is the reason for your anger against the Church?
Since my wife is the adulterous spouse, who planned this action with her lover and with foreknowledge of, as best I can tell a couple of priests, she should not be able to “profit” from her crime. That red herring is a basic text for circular logic in all law curriculi.

Also, as I pried to allude to since the teaching of the Church NOW has TWO EQUAL ENDS OF MARRIAGE and one cannot do evil to bring about good, I cannot see the brother and sister thing BECAUSE it harms the sacramental marriage,
particularly when the guilty party benefits from it. It is really not a fine point but is easily misunderstood .

Previously, since there were hierarchical ends of marriage with
raising the children taking preference over the good of the Sacramental spouses I could hallucinate some accomodation(but I thought the justification always was shallow and insufficient) but not under present teaching of the Church.

Remember, these acts were planned and that can be proven but I have been denied every opportunity at every level in the Church. There are other people who are aware of what I know and were/are willing to witness but the Church refuses to address ALL MY COMPLAINTS. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
 
I lost my post and want it back for the 30 second rule please find it in cyberspace and return it to me or my posts will cease.
 
Dear Former Catholic,

You are very bitter. You even express anger at the computer and the posting threads.

I would like to point out an inconsistency in your behavior, you are committed to the vows you took before God and the Church but you are not committed to continuing as a Catholic. Which is it? Either you truly believe the Church has the authority or not. Obviously, you live in a screwed up diocese and your wife attends a screwed up Church. They will all be held accountable for their actions; including the priest that had the nerve to allow your wife’s husband to enter the Church.

The Church certainly cannot force them to divorce since the first marriage was not annulled but they can forbid them from taking part in the sacraments.

As Catholics we are allowed to divorce in some situations but that does not necessarily allow us to remarry. I always tell people contemplating divorce that they need to be prepared to live a single and chaste existence for the rest of their lives.

You seriously should get spiritual guidance from a good, conservative priest. You need the strength of the sacraments. They will give you the strength to endure your suffering. Also, you simply need the grace of the sacraments.

You know that the Church errored in allowing her to recieve the sacraments and allowing her husband to enter the Church. But you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wrong action. Denying yourself the sacraments is a grave sin. You will be eternally accountable for YOUR actions if you do not repent and receive absolution.

You have been wronged, even people representing the Church have errored but you are going to have an eternal punishment for your stubborness and exit from the Church. It is one thing to be right it is another to be dead right.

Example, I have a distant family member that left the Church in his young adulthood (probably resulting from his wife divorcing and remarrying…he never remarried). All of his adult children left the Church and hate it as much as he. When he was on his death bed, he finally asked his adult children to get a priest. They called the parish but the priests were all at a priest retreat. The son just left it at that. He never told the secretary what he wanted (because there were priests on call for that sort of thing) and blending his bias he didn’t pursue it further and told his Dad on his death bed that the priest couldn’t come. He died without last rites even though he really wanted them. Of course, if they had told me, I would have had a priest there very quickly even if it meant calling the bishop.

God Bless.
 
St. Catherine,

It will be as it must be.

The Church can excomminucate my wife and her lover to attempt to bring them to repentance and it can hold its own to the same punishment for encouraging the destruction of a marriage and potentially numerous souls.

If my Bishop, Egan, gave a care he could do this on his own but he is too arrogant. So be it. I will not stand with such insolence and arrogance. I cannot be part of such a Church that would watch such terrible injustice and not do a thing to prevent it.

Were I a Bishop I would investigate to seek the truth and if that investigation turned up what I have charged, I would ask to speak to the guilty parties, explain their obligations to repent to them, ask them to their face to repent and if they then refused I would immediately excommunicate them, pending repentance, and all who aid and abet them. Anything more, a bishop cannot do.

The question is, is my soul worth it. Thus far my soul is not worth it to the Church, so if my soul is not worth it to the Church than it is not worth it to me. But there are other souls being lost which apparently matter little to the Church as well. The Catholic Church is in a sad state.

I ask only for justice, nothing more. I would not ask a Bishop to do what he could not or should not do.
 
formercatholic,
I cannot see the brother and sister thing BECAUSE it harms the sacramental marriage
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How? She is still married to you. You may have a lousy marriage, but it still sacramentally valid according to the doctrine and ecclesiastical norms of the Church. Blaming the doctrien and eccesiastical norms of the Church for your spousal problems is rather absurd
.

She is obliged to separate and repair the valid sacramental marriage according to the Church. Yet there may be many serious reasons for not doing so. Upbringing of children being one of them. As you insist, the upbringing of children is of primary importance when compared to the good of the spouse.

Futhermore, Roman custom since well before you were born permitted a man and woman to remain together in an invalid marriage, if they live together as brother and sister, if the reason for invalidity is the inability to conceive children. Does this “harm” the sacrament of marriage? I don’t see how, because no adultery is present with those who live continently and live in accordance with Christian moral principles.

If this long-standing Roman custom is not harmful to the sacrament of marriage, how does the current discipline which extends this Roman custom for other serious reasons harm the sacrament of marriage?

Or is it just that the following teaching, which was also the discipline of the Church before you were born, is supposedly harmful to the sacrament of marriage in your opinion?

“Separation from bed and board (divortium imperfectum) is allowed for various causes, especially in the case of adultery or lapse into infidelity or heresy on the part of husband or wife.” (1909 Catholic Encyclopedia - Divorce (in moral theology))

“The cessation of married life in common may have different degrees. There can be the mere cessation of married life (separatio quoad torum), or a complete separation as regards dwelling-place (separatio quoad cohabitationem).” (ibid)

For all we know, she had serious reasons for leaving you, not limited but including harm to body or soul. Yet, she was certainly unjustified in adulterous relations with another. If she repented of her adultery, then she is more than welcome to full communion with the Church, so long as the lives in accord with Christian moral principles.

She is not harming your marriage to her by merely being separated from you, if there is serious reasons for such separation. Seems to me, that since you have admitted to trying to get your own children to stay outside the Catholic Church, she certainly has serious reasons to remain separated from you.

Now, you have claimed without support that the Church has changed her doctrines, even implying that Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter preceded this supposed change in Catholic teaching. Yet you failed to provide convincing evidence of this change. On the contrary, I’ve showed you how this teaching has been consistent since Paul VI, and is in accord with long-standing Roman custom regarding men and women being allowed to live continently for serious reasons.

Can you provide evidence of this supposed rejection of prior Catholic teaching?

It seems to me that she is at least attempting to live in accord with the Catholic faith, whereas you place yourself above the judgement of the Vicar of Christ.
 
ItsjustDave,

I have not reread my post but I think I said that I believed what I read in Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter predated the evolution of the Church teaching about the ends of marriage.

If that is not what came across, then I am sorry, as that is what I meant and did not want to be unclear.

Based upon what you have stated it does seem that this “construct” as I believe I called it certainly preexisted the 1994 letter. I do not think I ever claimed to know when it came into being just that I read of it in the Ratzinger letter. I am glad to read your information.

I think it needs to be reevaluated in the light of the change in the Church teachings on the ends of mariage.

I fundamentally disagree with you regarding the fact that you somehow believe that living with another spouse does no harm to a sacramental marriage.

If I lived with your wife and attempted to turn your kids away from their father but I did not sleep with their mother, I would not blame you one bit if you came by and beat the snot out of me, because I would darn well be harming your marriage to your wife in such a circumstance and I would be harming your kids.

I believe I read of the change in the ends of marriage teachings in a letter in Homiletic and Pastoral Review but I am not really sure.
I think the author of the letter was the resident theologian at Dunwoodie, Father Smith. I hope that is correct.

If anyone knows please post it here.
 
Former Catholic,

You and You alone are responsible for the state of your soul; not your bishop. Jesus promised us an intact and apolostolic Church. He never said that it would be an especially healthy Church. We are a Church of sinners.

I beg of you to seek counseling. Your bitterness is over the top. I am almost afraid to ask how many years ago your wife divorced you. From the extent of your anger and bitterness, one might think that this is a recent wound but something tells me that all this happened a very long time ago. It is not healthy to continue this way.

Again, is spending eternity in Hell worth taking this “morally superior” position you have taken? Not only will you be held accountable for leaving the Church, staying away from the sacraments, for leading your children from the Church, and for not forgiving but you will also be held accountable for your arrogance, bullheadedness, and piss poor attitude. Again, you may be “right” but you will be dead right…for eternity.
 
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formercatholic:
Re:

Ends of Marriage see:

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/06-96/12/12.html

The Msgr. Burke mentioned in this article was the Ponens in my second instance Rotal decision. His publications are excellent.
He is presently teaching in a Seminary in Kenya , I believe, turning out good priests and good canonists.
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With all due respect to the canonist Msgr Burke, his opinion is no more magisterial than than the views of others who disagree on the matter.

The fact remains that much supposed change in doctrine lacks doctrinal support. No magisterial texts claim an equality of the ends of marriage. As such, magisterial texts having doctrinal force have greater authority than opinions of canonists.

In this instance, the good of their children seems to take primacy over the good of the spouse (you), which is in accord with the provisions approved of by Pope John Paul II in his Apostolic Exortation Familiaris Consortio. Even if her children are grown, your express rejection of the Catholic Church is sufficient to remain separated from you under even 1909 standards.
 
i am sure this is not a novel answer…go see your priest… that’s why they are there… to eliminate the confusion… hang around the rest of us and your bound to wind up muslem… 👍
 
I fundamentally disagree with you regarding the fact that you somehow believe that living with another spouse does no harm to a sacramental marriage.
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Here you are comparing apples to oranges when you ought to be comparing apples to apples.

Let’s say your wife did not have the provision to live as sister and brother for the sake of their children, she would then be obliged to separate from the father of her children, thereby putting the children into a broken home situation.

Now compare … is your marrage better off if she lives apart from you and apart from the father of her children? If so, how? Or are you merely seeking vengeance. I suspect the latter.

Given your rejection of the Catholic Church and your attempt to convince your children to stay outside of the Catholic Church, she is not obliged to return to you, who she may reasonably believe is a danger to her body or soul.
 
Dave,

The fundamental issue you fail to grasp is that my wife planned this, with the cooperation of individuals in the Church. It was a set up.

The reason it did not work was because she did not anticipate the rotal appeal. Had this case not gone to the Rota she and her lover would be married in the Catholic Church now having commited a perfect crime.

If you understood the basics of moral theology you would understand that you cannot do evil to do good.

I know you will not accept it but to destroy a marriage is evil.

My wife made little attempt to heal our marriage and when she met her future lover the marriage was toast.

One is forbidden to benefit from ones crimes in a legal system that is just. Case in point:

The minor son who pleads for mercy before the judge as an orphan will receive none when the judge understands that he is an orphan because he is on trial for murdering his parents.

Similarly, my wife planned her adultery and her children of this adultery. The Church is in grave sin if it gives her permission to live with her lover, they are real criminals. you cannot punish me to help her children. they indeed must be as protected as possible but if their parents are criminals, as they are in this case, they should be fully punished independent of the effect on the children. the children should be considered after just punishemnt is decided. that is justice, not what you propose. What you propose is more crime.
 
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