Divorce books

[Razor]

sometimes it is part of the wakeup call. Sometimes not. I am not sure why so many would rather your mom continue to live with the abuse that comes with an addiction. She needs a place for solace. Home is supposed to be a refuge and your mom has dignity as well.

I am not sure what folks here would suggest she do…just keep living in the situation. That is not honoring the dignity given to her as God’s child.

As you are saying, divorce is never a good thing, but what else does your mom have, to keep her own sanity?

She has probably endured for a lot longer than you really know and finds she just cannot any longer.

POPPYCOCK! I think you’ve been watching too much Oprah! What OFFICIAL teaching of the church do you base this feedback on? If you are just telling the OP your OPINION then you are not doing the person any good.

Home IS a refuge–home in heaven. Until we get there we have no “home” here on Earth. Her dignity is based on her creation in the image and likeness of God–the God that suffered and died on the Holy Cross for our redemption.

If there is TRULY abuse then the church allows separation. That is solace. Greater solace can be found in sacrificial love for her spouse. Saints find joy in their suffering.

Believe me, I understand how HORRIBLE the suffering can be in a marriage . . . and I am NOT a masochist. I certainly would not “wish” that kind of suffering on anyone. But if Christ calls us to suffer and we decide to throw His cross on the ground, stomp on it, spit on it and walk away from it, how are we to become saints in this life?

Remember Jesus begging His Father to “take this cup from me”? Remember what He said immediately after that? “Not my will, but your will be done”. What was His Father’s answer? Did God say “Oh! Poor Jesus. You have suffered enough already so let’s just forget the whole thing.” NO!!! God said “I know this is horrible suffering but I am asking you to do it anyway” (in so many words).

If we TRULY believe in God we must seek the truth AT ALL COSTS. If we suffer, then we are blessed.

 

[joanofarc2008]

From the CCC #2383 (Please actually know Church teaching before spouting off as parts of what you have said are correct but taken very out of context)

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.

 

[thewanderer]

Razor, yes, seperation is a legitimate option, nobody is denying that. I don’t know everything involved, but sometimes civil divorce is necessary for the protection of all involved. A civil divorce, so long as its understood as just that, a divorce with respect to the state is not necessarily a renunciation or even an attempt at a renunciation of one’s vows. It is sometimes what is necessary to be actually able to keep the distance necessary between people and so to prevent them from getting hurt. Also, even ifdivorce could never be the correct route, it is not necessarly a sin to be divorced. If you are not the one initiating it, and don’t want it, its not your fault. Btw, I think the fact that in the states you can’t even apply for an annulment unless you are already divorced is a sign that the Church is not quite as against divorce as you seem to think…

Brgregmack, I am so sorry for your situation!! This is a difficult situation to have to go through, I am very glad that at least there are no young children involved, as that always makes such a situation all the more tragic. I don’t know of particular books for you, but I will definately keep you all in my prayers!!

 

[Razor]

Btw, I think the fact that in the states you can’t even apply for an annulment unless you are already divorced is a sign that the Church is not quite as against divorce as you seem to think…

Just because the tribunals in the U.S. force people to be civilly divorced before the submit a petition for annulment does not make it morally right. Nor does it mean they are following church law. The tribunals, and the judges that work in them, are not infallible.

There are (at least) two reasons this has been allowed. 1) bishops are afraid of civil lawsuits and 2) tribunal judges don’t want to deal with the multiple canons that require them to aid the spouses in reconciliation. Civil divorce is the easy way to say “they have irreconcilable differences” so we don’t have to try to get them to reconcile. They IGNORE their canon law DUTY and our bishops should not be allowing it.

Remember, “the church” is the bride of Christ and, therefore, is infallible. Individuals (and groups of individuals) within the church are not infallible. In many (MANY) cases our U. S. bishops do a fine job but divorce is absolutely not one of them. I don’t know of a single bishop in this country that will stand firm along side the true teaching of the church on divorce. It is NOT this way in other countries and our Holy Father continues to warn the U.S. tribunals in his annual address.

 

[thewanderer]

Just because the tribunals in the U.S. force people to be civilly divorced before the submit a petition for annulment does not make it morally right. Nor does it mean they are following church law. The tribunals, and the judges that work in them, are not infallible.

There are (at least) two reasons this has been allowed. 1) bishops are afraid of civil lawsuits and 2) tribunal judges don’t want to deal with the multiple canons that require them to aid the spouses in reconciliation. Civil divorce is the easy way to say “they have irreconcilable differences” so we don’t have to try to get them to reconcile. They IGNORE their canon law DUTY and our bishops should not be allowing it.

Remember, “the church” is the bride of Christ and, therefore, is infallible. Individuals (and groups of individuals) within the church are not infallible. In many (MANY) cases our U. S. bishops do a fine job but divorce is absolutely not one of them. I don’t know of a single bishop in this country that will stand firm along side the true teaching of the church on divorce. It is NOT this way in other countries and our Holy Father continues to warn the U.S. tribunals in his annual address.

I didn’t mean that the church likes the idea of divorce. You seemed to be saying that it is a mortal sin to get divorced, which simply isn’t true. It can be but is not always. (And not just because of lack of knowledge or consent).

 

[Razor]

From the CCC #2383 (Please actually know Church teaching before spouting off as parts of what you have said are correct but taken very out of context)

Spouting off? I’ll let that go.

Read the paragraphs from the Catechism on either side of the one you quoted. The previous paragraph says “The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble” and the next paragraph says “Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law.”

CCC 2383 refers to Canons 1151-1155 which say:
*Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.

§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.

§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too diYcult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.

Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.*

Please compare/contrast CCC 2383 with these words from Holy Scripture:
Gen. 2:20-24
Mal. 2:16
Ezra 10:1-14
Matt. 5:31-32
Matt. 19:6
Matt. 19:9
Mark 10:11-12
Luke 16:18
Rom. 7:2-3
1 Cor. 7:10-11
1 Cor. 7:12-15
Eph. 5:22-32
Rev. 19:9

After all that are you still going to try to defend divorce?

 

[Razor]

A civil divorce, so long as its understood as just that, a divorce with respect to the state is not necessarily a renunciation or even an attempt at a renunciation of one’s vows. It is sometimes what is necessary to be actually able to keep the distance necessary between people and so to prevent them from getting hurt.

I disagree. Separation accomplishes that without civil divorce.

Also, even ifdivorce could never be the correct route, it is not necessarly a sin to be divorced. If you are not the one initiating it, and don’t want it, its not your fault.

Agreed. Only the spouse who chooses to divorce is guilty. So are all the others (family, friends, parishioners, priests, bishops, co-workers, etc.) who condone the divorce. Of course, in many (probably most) cases both spouses end up wanting the divorce–or at least not trying to defend their valid marriage.

 

[Razor]

I didn’t mean that the church likes the idea of divorce. You seemed to be saying that it is a mortal sin to get divorced, which simply isn’t true. It can be but is not always. (And not just because of lack of knowledge or consent).

Assuming knowledge and consent, what percentage of divorces would you guess are not mortal sin? I’m just looking for your best ballpark guess. In this day of “pre-nups” I doubt canon 2383 ever applies.

 

[mamaslo]

Um, Razor, she is leaving the husband not because of adultery but because of addiction. Her husband suffers from addiction and it sounds like he won’t get help. She needs to protect her assets and her health. If she stays, he could take every thing they own and sell it to fill the addiction. He needs help, but she needs protection.

She doesn’t get protection unless she does something legally. The OP, who is the son, knows she doesn’t want to do this but it sounds like she is backed into a corner. It also sounds like, if he were to get help, and fix the problem, she might accept him back.

I think you missed this very important information.

OP at the very least, it would probably be a good idea for your mom to have her own bank account, if she doesn’t already.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Spouting off? I’ll let that go.

Read the paragraphs from the Catechism on either side of the one you quoted. The previous paragraph says “The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble” and the next paragraph says “Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law.”

CCC 2383 refers to Canons 1151-1155 which say:
*Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.

§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.

§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too diYcult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.

Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.*

Please compare/contrast CCC 2383 with these words from Holy Scripture:
Gen. 2:20-24
Mal. 2:16
Ezra 10:1-14
Matt. 5:31-32
Matt. 19:6
Matt. 19:9
Mark 10:11-12
Luke 16:18
Rom. 7:2-3
1 Cor. 7:10-11
1 Cor. 7:12-15
Eph. 5:22-32
Rev. 19:9

After all that are you still going to try to defend divorce?

I am not saying that in some cases divorce is not a grevious sin. You seem to be saying that it always is. When one uses words like always in a case like this then it clearly is against the teaching of the Church.

 

[Razor]

Um, Razor, she is leaving the husband not because of adultery but because of addiction. Her husband suffers from addiction and it sounds like he won’t get help. She needs to protect her assets and her health. If she stays, he could take every thing they own and sell it to fill the addiction. He needs help, but she needs protection.

She doesn’t get protection unless she does something legally. The OP, who is the son, knows she doesn’t want to do this but it sounds like she is backed into a corner. It also sounds like, if he were to get help, and fix the problem, she might accept him back.

I think you missed this very important information.

She can protect her “assets and her health” by separation–which is allowed by church law (with permission from the bishop).

The Catholic church does not allow divorce because the spouse has some addition–no matter how severe and no matter how little hope there is to recover–and no matter how many “assets” the addicted spouse may or may not be susceptible to destroying. You are looking at this situation through your eyes instead of the eyes of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in a totally secular light I would have to agree with you. Get away from this loser! But speaking from the eyes of God, that loser was created in His image
and deserves to be treated with dignity just as much as the suffering spouse.

I am not saying the church is without sympathy for these spouses who suffer. What I am saying is the church does not (will not, can not) teach contradiction to God. If Jesus said divorce was allowed because of the hardness of hearts but was not intended that way from the beginning then divorce was never intended by God–plain and simple. The church can’t say “God was wrong”.

 

[Razor]

I am not saying that in some cases divorce is not a grevious sin. You seem to be saying that it always is. When one uses words like always in a case like this then it clearly is against the teaching of the Church.

In this day and age, I believe it always is. However, for your sake, I concede. Replace the word “always” with “in 99.99% of the cases”.

 

[joanofarc2008]

She can protect her “assets and her health” by separation–which is allowed by church law (with permission from the bishop).

The Catholic church does not allow divorce because the spouse has some addition–no matter how severe and no matter how little hope there is to recover–and no matter how many “assets” the addicted spouse may or may not be susceptible to destroying. You are looking at this situation through your eyes instead of the eyes of the Holy Spirit. Speaking in a totally secular light I would have to agree with you. Get away from this loser! But speaking from the eyes of God, that loser was created in His image
and deserves to be treated with dignity just as much as the suffering spouse.

I am not saying the church is without sympathy for these spouses who suffer. What I am saying is the church does not (will not, can not) teach contradiction to God. If Jesus said divorce was allowed because of the hardness of hearts but was not intended that way from the beginning then divorce was never intended by God–plain and simple. The church can’t say “God was wrong”.

Not every state has legal separation so how does she protect her children, assets, or physical person. Sorry, but I do not think you have a full grasp of the situation or Church teaching in this situation.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

This thread isn’t about whether or not the OP’s parents should get divorced. This thread is asking for books for Catholics that might provide support for people who ARE getting divorced. The OP’s mother isn’t even reading this thread (I assume), so maybe it would be best to argue these points elsewhere.

OP, I got on one of my favorite Catholic Book store websites and searched under “Divorce.” Here is the link to the results (4 pgs): adoremusbooks.com/search.aspx?find=Divorce&log=false
Contained in that search are “The Joy of You: your life after divorce” adoremusbooks.com/thejoyofyouyourlifeafterdivorcewilliamrabior-paperback.aspx , and “Healing after divorce: Hope for Catholics.” adoremusbooks.com/healingafterdivorcehopeforcatholicssusankrowland-paperback.aspx. Not having read them, I can’t vouch for their orthodoxy, but maybe you can find them on Amazon with reviews?
%between%

 

[mamaslo]

OP sorry for the diversion from the topic. Generally, I don’t mind addition to topics but some are taking issue with the divorce and you have no control over that but want some realistic resource to assist her in what she is in the process of discerning for her life. I think too that this topic has become argumentative when you are not the one who is arguing. I understand why you would want something reasonable to assist your mother in figuring out what she needs to do and sometimes it requires looking at separation and maybe divorce.

I am sorry for my contribution to the argument.

 

[mamaslo]

This thread isn’t about whether or not the OP’s parents should get divorced. This thread is asking for books for Catholics that might provide support for people who ARE getting divorced. The OP’s mother isn’t even reading this thread (I assume), so maybe it would be best to argue these points elsewhere.

OP, I got on one of my favorite Catholic Book store websites and searched under “Divorce.” Here is the link to the results (4 pgs): adoremusbooks.com/search.aspx?find=Divorce&log=false
Contained in that search are “The Joy of You: your life after divorce” adoremusbooks.com/thejoyofyouyourlifeafterdivorcewilliamrabior-paperback.aspx , and “Healing after divorce: Hope for Catholics.” adoremusbooks.com/healingafterdivorcehopeforcatholicssusankrowland-paperback.aspx. Not having read them, I can’t vouch for their orthodoxy, but maybe you can find them on Amazon with reviews?
%between%

Thank you for the post TKC…we posted nearly at the same time. Finally, OP, some resources for your mom.

 

[Razor]

Not every state has legal separation so how does she protect her children, assets, or physical person. Sorry, but I do not think you have a full grasp of the situation or Church teaching in this situation.

I don’t think you do either. I’ll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.