Divorce or Annulment?

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ok - good idea. i’ll look into it. but, i could use your prayers too.

on a side note, my brother approached me the other day and wants to have a “deep talk” about how much i’ve changed in recent years (negatively) - he’s making the connection to my marriage. i know i’ve changed for the worse. i’ve pretty much fallen away from God. i know it. i feel it and i feel so utterly in the abyss. i wonder if any saints had this problem?

i remember the times when God graced me with choirs of angels waking me up in the mornings (seriously) for months on end and other special graces. i’ve made an about face because of the crosses that i couldn’t bare. and i’m my road to hell…
 
kohotali said:
ok - good idea. i’ll look into it. but, i could use your prayers too.

on a side note, my brother approached me the other day and wants to have a “deep talk” about how much i’ve changed in recent years (negatively) - he’s making the connection to my marriage. i know i’ve changed for the worse. i’ve pretty much fallen away from God. i know it. i feel it and i feel so utterly in the abyss. i wonder if any saints had this problem?

i remember the times when God graced me with choirs of angels waking me up in the mornings (seriously) for months on end and other special graces. i’ve made an about face because of the crosses that i couldn’t bare. and i’m my road to hell…
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You are in my prayers. What you need right now is to know what options you have that are lawful in the sight of God. Three grounds for annulment come immediately to my mind with your story. Interestingly enough, the non-canonists who have responded to you have either correctly told you to talk to someone who can help (priest) or have ridiculed annulments. None of them, however, were likely to have known all three of the grounds for annulment that jumped out at me, nor did they say like I’m going to say, that I think based on certain things you wrote, you may have a strong case for one particular ground if you felt called to go that route after prayerful consideration of all your choices including possible separation or remaining with your putative husband. It is not inherently more holy to remain ignorant of your marital status in the Church after a doubt has been raised, and thus the faithful have a right to know it, even if it means a declaration of an invalid marriage (annulment). In the USA at least, you cannot begin the annulment trial without first having a civil divorce. However, a canonist can give you a very good idea as to the probable outcome of an annulment trial or even Church separation trial… and also many can refer to sliding scale marriage counselors… or individual counselors.
 
thank you for your thoughtful response. if you don’t mind, would you send me a private message and let me know what 3 grounds for annulment you see? also, are you a canonical lawyer? obviously, i’d go get professional advice, but maybe your advice could support my arguments…

thanks again.
 
SerraSemper said:
…you may have a strong case for one particular ground if you felt called to go that route after prayerful consideration of all your choices including possible separation or remaining with your putative husband.
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would you mind please clarifying this…?
 
Let us remember, that spouses can obtain a civil divorce and if an declaration of nullity is not issues, can remain chaste the remainder of their lives. Not easy, but there are plenty of single Catholics who never get married at all, so it is not like a torturous punishment to have to remain single, and certainly better than living in an abusive relationship. There are many different types of abuse and neglect.

Second, while it is awful that a husband is unwilling to work towards supporting his family, keep in mind that single and divorced women end up supporting their families alone, too. So that part won’t change.

My opinion, this husband needs a wake up call. He won’t go to counseling. It is doing him no spiritual favors to enable him to live with no responsibilities. There is certainly every reason to issue him a wake up call with some boundaries that are enforced regarding his behaviour.

And johndoe…I do wish you would “stop helping Catholic women” by commenting as you have been. It reminds me of an old song…“Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without.”

I totally submit to the teaching authority of the Church.
 
Dear Kohotali, please forgive if I am completely off base, but my experience with foreign men marrying American women leads me to ask this question. Did your husband marry you in order to somehow or another get residency in the United States? This is very common. If he did, it is fraud, and may be grounds for an Church anullment, and maybe even a civil anullment. I am not a canon lawyer or a civil lawyer, but you need to seek advice from one of them. May God bless you during tHis difficult time.
 
Thanks for your prayers, suggestions, concerns and trying to help me out!

In all honesty, unless I’m seriously stupid, I don’t believe my husband married me to move to the US. In the beginning of our marriage, for about 1.5 years, he was quite against moving. But, once we had our son, my husband has been seeing how the country we’re living in, is completely not fit for humans (there is absolutely no rule of law and essentially, it’s a dictatorship gone wild).

I don’t know what to do. I’ve just completely threw up my hands and have given up on him. I read something recently that "if you have an issue with someone, approach them once, then twice. If it doesn’t work out, just “raise it/hand it over to God”. I’ve raised it more than twice. About 100x that.

In church today, I’ve raised the issue again with God, telling Him that I’m just overwhelmed - trying to make money, raising a son, and some other major projects that I promised to God, that are now on hold - because I’m the one who has to worry, strategize on figure out how to make money to live.

I’m just burnt out. I can care less anymore about my husband. But, I understand that this attitude is sending me straight to hell. How am I supposed to get to heaven with a smile on my face when my husband refuses to provide and EVERYTHING is put on my shoulders?
 
Philo3 said:
My opinion, this husband needs a wake up call. He won’t go to counseling. It is doing him no spiritual favors to enable him to live with no responsibilities. There is certainly every reason to issue him a wake up call with some boundaries that are enforced regarding his behaviour.
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Can I ask, what do you mean by wake up call?
 
Kohotali, I don’t know specifially what type of “wake-up call” would be appropriate. I think that would be what could be discussed with a counselor or a priest - perhaps an ultimatum of “do xyz or move out.”
In Alanon (for friends and family of alcoholics) they say that relationships are like algebraic equations - if you change one variable it changes the outcome of the equation. Like “a+b=c” . So, the other option is to change your expectations - just pretend that you are a single mom, you would be doing it all alone anyway along with trying to balance the visitation time of your child going to be with his/her father.
Alanon is free and there are online resources, even if alchol/addiction is not an issue there can be helpful information in learning to set boundaries and coming to understand that we cannot change another person, only ourselves.
There is not much else to say via an online forum where we cannot see the entire situation, that is why it is so important to find some type of counseling. Even a couple of visits with a counselor could be helpful to you. There are US based Catholic or Christain counselors available for phone counseling if there are none locally. I am not sure how an international call would work, but perhaps via Skype?
My heart hurts for you, you are under a lot of pressure. Keep turning to God, keep offering up the suffering each moment to God, cling to Him. He is ever faithful, ever loving, even when we don’t feel His love.
I don’t know that your attitude toward you husband is “sending you straight to hell” because it is certainly natural to give up after awhile. You are remaining faithful to your vows, you are living a love that is beyond any feelings/emotions and beyond getting anything back for yourself.
Asking for a seperation would not be sinful especially as a temporary “it’s time to man-up”, just don’t start dating anyone while you are still married in the eyes of the Church. (Which would be after a divorce and only then after a Declaration of Nullity was issued.)
I intend to be faithful to the Church, but this is all my personal opinion based on limited research and information.
 
kohotali said:
My husband absolutely refuses to work. In the three years we’ve been married he’s had 7 jobs, left or got fired. Also, he has absolutely no interest in intimacy and has told me yesterday that he does not ever plan to have intimacy ever again with me, in all seriousness. We live overseas, and we were thinking of moving back to the US, but i see that there’s no marriage, so I want to leave him. My husband said that he absolutely will not look for work until he gets his green card (which can take between 6 months to a year). So the entire financial burden has been on me since we have gotten married.

Thoughts?
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If you are married Catholic, you need to stick to your marriage unless it is compromising your safety. Unless you don’t mind to commit adultery.

Consult with a priest. Jesus is happiness and joy, you need to have him more in your heart. The tendency of many is to give the responsibility to our par tenor to make us happy when in truth, it is up to us to draw close to God or not.

I feel for you though and you are in my prayer, please don’t give up prayer for your husband.

I pray for both of you to be happy and find a way.

Blessings and love
 
kohotali.
You had also mentioned that your husband didn’t ever want marital intimacy again. It sounds because of a fear of having additional children which would be a financial burden? Have you heard of natural family planning? There are a few different methods and they have as high of an efficacy rate at avoiding pregnancy as artificial contraceptives and they are morally licit for use planning a family. Here are some links:

Couple to Couple League ccli.org/nfp/
Billings Method boma-usa.org/
Creighton Model creightonmodel.com/

Hope this helps.
 
Philo3 said:
There are US based Catholic or Christain counselors available for phone counseling if there are none locally. I am not sure how an international call would work, but perhaps via Skype?
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Thanks for the information. I wasn’t aware that there are counselors available for phone counseling. But, before doing that, I may want to try another larger parish in town and see what someone there may say. I’ve been to a Catholic Marriage Counselor here (the only one in this city - and I live in the capital). Though she is relatively inexpensive, she’s extremely far away for me. I don’t have the time to go - raising a young toddler, trying to make money (a nightmare) and keeping up the household.
 
Chantal25 said:
If you are married Catholic, you need to stick to your marriage unless it is compromising your safety. Unless you don’t mind to commit adultery.

Consult with a priest. Jesus is happiness and joy, you need to have him more in your heart. The tendency of many is to give the responsibility to our par tenor to make us happy when in truth, it is up to us to draw close to God or not.

I feel for you though and you are in my prayer, please don’t give up prayer for your husband.

I pray for both of you to be happy and find a way.

Blessings and love
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Well, I understand that we need to take up our crosses. I don’t know if I have or not. I sure complain a lot to God about mine, though.

But, I think that you are comparing apples and oranges with your statement, “The tendency of many is to give the responsibility to our par tenor to make us happy when in truth, it is up to us to draw close to God or not.”

I don’t expect my husband to make me happy. I have truly given up on that. I believe this, deep down that he will never make me “happy”. I have gone through hell and back with him since our Honeymoon (the things he’s done since we got married would shock you). However, I doexpect for him to become responsible for his actions and provide for our family. This is not about making me happy with a nice gold bracelet. This is about survival. As the good Bible says in 1 Timothy 5:8: *But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. * This is really about survival - putting food in our mouths and shoes on our feet. Because I make less than $600 a month for my son, myself and my husband.

I’ve become so overwhelmed with not only trying to make money, but to raise my son, keep a home and keep a promise to God about a Catholic project I had started several years ago —> that is hanging over my head like a HUGE black cloud. IF ONLY my husband would pull in some kind of consistent job, I could raise our son and finish off the promise to God. this is killing me!

i keep telling this to God but it’s falling onto deaf ears…
 
Chantal25 said:
If you are married Catholic, you need to stick to your marriage unless it is compromising your safety. Unless you don’t mind to commit adultery.
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Actually, adultery is having sexual relations with a person who is not your spouse. The Church has long recognized that married couples may need to “separate from bed and table” for serious reason. Even divorce is permitted for necessary civil/legal protection.

Adultery would only occur if a spouse enters a relationship while still married in the eyes of the Church. Once a couple is divorced, they can apply for a declaration of nullity, and if that is issued they are free to enter another marriage and it would not be adultery.

Please, it is so hurtful to throw out the word “adultery” when a person is struggling in a relationship that is possibly abusive and at the least very painful. Kohotali is not talking about starting another relationship, despite the fact that her husband has ended all marital intimacy.

In terms of safety, the US Bishops recognize that abuse can be physical, emotional, verbal. Sometimes spouses in abusive relationships are discreet in describing exactly how bad it really is.

One more thing, Kohotali, about your promise to God. Particularly talk to a priest about this. Perhaps it is a promise that needs to be fulfilled later, once you child is older or finances/working is not so stressful. It sounds like this is something that is even making your spiritual life more stressful.
 
Philo3 said:
One more thing, Kohotali, about your promise to God. Particularly talk to a priest about this. Perhaps it is a promise that needs to be fulfilled later, once you child is older or finances/working is not so stressful. It sounds like this is something that is even making your spiritual life more stressful.
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Thanks so much for your reply. I should talk to a priest. I just don’t ever have the time and it’s very complicated for me to get to one (it’s not like hoping in a car and zipping to the nearest church). Things here are much more difficult and complicated and…sooo difficult. (What takes little effort in the US takes an incredible amount of time, effort, planning, and money to do here. There’s a roadblock for everything! It’s unbelievable…) My spiritual life has taken such a nose dive since I got married. I never thought I could backslide. But not only did I backslid, I frontslid, tumbled and plopped right on my face, spiritually. I have move so far from God that I don’t know how to get back to the ‘place I was’, before I got married.

My spirit totally deflated. Have no strength or initiative to prop it back up.
 
kohotali said:
Thanks so much for your reply. I should talk to a priest. I just don’t ever have the time and it’s very complicated for me to get to one (it’s not like hoping in a car and zipping to the nearest church). Things here are much more difficult and complicated and…sooo difficult. (What takes little effort in the US takes an incredible amount of time, effort, planning, and money to do here. There’s a roadblock for everything! It’s unbelievable…) My spiritual life has taken such a nose dive since I got married. I never thought I could backslide. But not only did I backslid, I frontslid, tumbled and plopped right on my face, spiritually. I have move so far from God that I don’t know how to get back to the ‘place I was’, before I got married.

My spirit totally deflated. Have no strength or initiative to prop it back up.
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Just little things is all it will take, make some little spiritual effort everyday. Read a Bible verse or some type of daily Catholic meditation - say Morning Prayer that is available at Universalis online, or make a morning offering, when ever you are mad at your husband offer it up (I offer it up for love of you Oh, Lord, in reparation for sins and for the salvation of souls.), say over and over “Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me a sinner.” or “Jesus, I trust in you,” or say and Our Father at night before you go to sleep. Whatever you
CAN do, do and it doesn’t have to be a lot. Like trying to get by on a path that is covered with debris, just a little at a time, being persistent, no big changes until suddenly you are past that block, and it may take awhile. Just keep crying out to God, He does hear you. We don’t always feel His answer, but trust that He is holding you in the palm of His hand.
 
Philo3 said:
Let us remember, that spouses can obtain a civil divorce and if an declaration of nullity is not issues, can remain chaste the remainder of their lives. Not easy, but there are plenty of single Catholics who never get married at all, so it is not like a torturous punishment to have to remain single, and certainly better than living in an abusive relationship. There are many different types of abuse and neglect.

Second, while it is awful that a husband is unwilling to work towards supporting his family, keep in mind that single and divorced women end up supporting their families alone, too. So that part won’t change.

My opinion, this husband needs a wake up call. He won’t go to counseling. It is doing him no spiritual favors to enable him to live with no responsibilities. There is certainly every reason to issue him a wake up call with some boundaries that are enforced regarding his behaviour.

**And johndoe…I do wish you would “stop helping Catholic women” by commenting as you have been. It reminds me of an old song…“Some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without.” **

I totally submit to the teaching authority of the Church.
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Don’t worry, that poster was banned long ago.
 
hello all!

i’m back again and the situation is more of the same. basically, i am so low on funds that i want to put that money into an emergency fund for my son (i.e. medical primarily and other surprises). outside of that, i have only a few months left of money to live on. my money has been drained. last month after begging and pleading for him to get a job, he refused to get a job at any retail, construction or fast food place, because it would “hurt his reputation” LOL - he destroyed it to no end years ago but lives in a fantasy that he still has one (and a good one at that!)

i prayed to God in a major panic and desperation for my husband to get a job. so, he has gotten something this week (by ONLY the grace of God), but i know that this money will not come close to cover anything of substance. maybe a few groceries and telephone bills. God knows the desperation i’m in. living oversees, as a freelancer, i’ve only made $300 since the begining of the year. i don’t have a clue what to do next! i can’t get a job in the country in living in now and the freelancing is brining in practically no money and my husband’s “so-called” job won’t even cover half the rent. and knowing my husband with his wonderful track record of leaving jobs or getting fired relatively quickly, i don’t hold ANY faith that this will last long at all. he’s on job number 9 within 3.5 years.

i see that this job is God’s answer to my prayer, but it doesn’t fix my major issue. it’s not enough. it is just not enough. i’m down to my last wits. i don’t know what to do. i’m ready to call it quits and go home with my son. my husband’s attitude hasn’t changed - just a reaction to my hysterical begging and pleading for him to work. i’m going out of my mind - literally.

is it a sin to leave a marriage to save myself and my son from a husband who really doesn’t care about us - to give him a safe, healthy environment and home life?
 
You should take your son and come back to the United States. It sounds like your life is a living hell in a 3rd world country. You would not be sinning to take care of your son. He should be your priority, not your loser husband.
 
It is not a sin to protect your son. You are responsible to God for your son’s well-being. Once you get in a safe situation for yourself and your son you can decide on your next step. You can’t change someone else, only yourself. Even God doesn’t “make” us change, it is always an invitation to change.
 
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