Divorce; why not?

[Horton]

I get that the CC doesn’t recognize divorce and only annulments. Still, I would say that it may be better to separate and/or divorce than to stay married when things clearly have been miserable for years.

Divorce and annulment are two very different things. The Catholic church does recognize divorce and at times sees the need for it. To say the Church doesn’t recognize divorce, only annulments is false. One must be civilly divorced before a marriage case can be filed with a tribunal.

A divorce is a legal civil action governed by the state.

An annulment is a statement of fact by a Church tribunal that a valid marriage never existed.

 

[EasterJoy]

So sad to think anyone could conclude that nothing meaningful is easy.

Love is the most meaningful of all things, and the easiest.

One only needs to recall holding their infant child for the first time…that love took no effort at all. It is natural. As natural as God’s love for each of us…perhaps that moment of unconditional love is when we best realize the meaning of our being created in the image of God, for He loves us without waiving, every minute of every day, like we love our own child when we first meet

No, love is not easy. The Bible says no such thing. The Lord makes it abundantly clear that loving humankind has not been any piece of cake!

*How could I give you up, Ephraim,
or deliver you up, Israel?
How could I treat you as Admah,
or make you like Zeboiim?
My heart is overwhelmed,
my pity is stirred.

I will not give vent to my blazing anger,
I will not destroy Ephraim again;
For I am God and not a man,
the Holy One present among you;*
Hos. 11:8-9

*"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Behold, your house will be abandoned. [But] I tell you, you will not see me until [the time comes when] you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”* Luke 13:34-35

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the Flight to Egypt did not display a lack of charity. Sometimes, leaving a situation is the only viable option. As wrong as it would be to automatically tell the OP that he ought to leave his wife, it is even more wrong to tell him that love is easy if only we understand it correctly. I am sure you mean well, but that is simply false sentimentality. It sets people up for a rude awakening and a lot of self-punishment to teach them that, so please do not do that.

I would say this: Have the depression treated first, then start exploring how the marriage got to where it is and whether a peaceful common conjugal life can be attained. The marriage is valid until proven otherwise, but if this depression is left untreated it could put a wedge between the patient and the spouse that will be extraordinarily difficult to overcome. Lose no time in addressing that, then. Divorce is an ordeal; don’t rush into that. The process itself has this way of making depression worse, not better. Many of us who have been depressed have found that we actually have the energy to work on our marriages after we get help with the depression.

What if your therapist suggests that you move out? Consult your pastor and a divorce attorney first and consider what protection is in place for the children. For instance, spouses who move out can be at a great disadvantage when negotiating parental rights. If your spouse is verbally abusive, you do have a responsibility to protect your children from that. The stress of parenting alone may bring more down on them. As the airlines say, though, get the oxygen flowing to your own mask before you attempt to help anyone else. Do get going, though.

This is the hardest thing in the world, because you are depressed! Do you have a friend who can help you to keep yourself on track? I have likened depression to flying an aircraft on instruments. You know what to do, you have ways to see what your situation is, but you look out the window and it is entirely darkness. You are putting a lot of faith in those “instruments”! It is exhausting work! You want to have a co-pilot and you do want to make your flight plan with understanding about how difficult the “flight conditions” are right now. You’re navigating a storm in the dark. You have to get out, you are not in a safe place, but make short flights, keep in contact with a co-pilot and the “Tower,” and rest often, OK?

 

[EasterJoy]

Divorce and annulment are two very different things. The Catholic church does recognize divorce and at times sees the need for it. To say the Church doesn’t recognize divorce, only annulments is false. One must be civilly divorced before a marriage case can be filed with a tribunal.

A divorce is a legal civil action governed by the state.

An annulment is a statement of fact by a Church tribunal that a valid marriage never existed.

Civil law can issue decrees of nullity, too. In many states, however, the process for divorce is so much easier that decrees of nullity are rarely used except for very short-lived attempts at marriage. The Church does not require Catholics who might have been eligible for a civil decree of nullity to go that route; the Church recognizes that sometimes the faithful have to submit to the reality of how much secular law and divine law differ.

 

[Teabag]

In a situation now where divorce is 99% likely

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, but the couple was interrogated before marrying in the church and were found to be both willing and aware of the vows to be taken.

Thank you for your honesty. There is one bit I forgot. The partner suffering is jobless, has no pension, is doing everything to move forward but only finding closed doors. This can place the person in a deeper state of depression. Perhaps the external factors are influencing their decision rather than the state of the marriage. I mean, aren’t most marriages mediocre at best?

Find someone who will help? Too many opinions renders a person more confused. Let’s say that you don’t want to hurt the children (teens by now) so you wait till they leave the home. Is that good? If God is your only solace, then shouldn’t that be reason enough to be happy?

Yes, and I could make a bid to build a house and say I was willing, aware and able to do it. Sometimes, the attempt at building the proposed house says otherwise. People can give consent with good intention and find out only later that they spoke out of turn.

I don’t know if I would say that most marriages are mediocre, but I would say that all marriages can be improved unless proven otherwise. Even the secular therapists urge couples to “earn their way out” of their marriage by working on saving it before they throw in the towel. If you haven’t done that work, you can’t know. Many look back wistfully and wonder. Urge this friend to leave no regrets.

A depressed person should not rely on himself alone to gauge the avenues available for his happiness. He should not rely upon himself to gauge his prospects for success. By its very definition, depression makes him very bad at that! Real qualified-skin-on-look-you-in-the-eye help do not take every answer a depressed person gives at face value, nor do they discount what is said. They have the experience to help guide the depressed persons where others have blazed a trail. That is the place to get help.

An friend who was invited to do so can help the depressed person stay encouraged and on track to do what he sets out to do, a therapist can help him sort out his feelings, a psychiatrist can help with any medications or medical treatment that is needed, a pastor or spiritual director can help guide spiritually and ethically, a divorce attorney can give advice about strategies to prevent an unfair loss in any divorce proceedings that may or may not come about down the road. (Do just assume that a controlling spouse won’t file for divorce pre-emptively. It happens.)

 

[Horton]

Civil law can issue decrees of nullity, too. In many states, however, the process for divorce is so much easier that decrees of nullity are rarely used except for very short-lived attempts at marriage. The Church does not require Catholics who might have been eligible for a civil decree of nullity to go that route; the Church recognizes that sometimes the faithful have to submit to the reality of how much secular law and divine law differ.

I know civil authorities can issue decrees of nullity but it not the same as a decree of nullity issued by the Catholic Church. Before a petition can be brought before the tribunal the marriage must be dissolved by civil authorities, either divorce or annulment.

 

[EasterJoy]

I know civil authorities can issue decrees of nullity but it not the same as a decree of nullity issued by the Catholic Church. Before a petition can be brought before the tribunal the marriage must be dissolved by civil authorities, either divorce or annulment.

Oh, yes. I only meant that the concept of a decree of nullity exists in civil law, too. It is very much distinct from a divorce, even in civil law.

 

[Still_Hoping]

Whether the marriage is valid at this point is not totally the main issue; it’s the family. A couple (whether married or not) has children and raises them together. If the parents separate, is this not detrimental to the children and to society? What is more important, our happiness (which can be fleeting) or the preservation of the family? If God’s grace is sufficient in any matter, then should it not be in marriages that are lackluster (I will not apply this to relationships that are still abusive which causes harm to the individuals involved-it is evident that the victim(s) should seek help to separate from the abusive situation).

The scenario I gave in the initial post, stated that the abuse has stopped but the victim feels demoralized on many levels but has nonetheless found peace and even joyous moments with the family. Things are not has one planned but they are good to say the least. Many unsolicited traumatic events happened that the couple worked through and remained loyal and devoted. Is this enough to remain married even if it is not under ideal circumstances since the reason to marry was due to an unplanned pregnancy. Does God want us to leave an invalid marriage or is it an excuse?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

Divorce and annulment are two very different things. The Catholic church does recognize divorce and at times sees the need for it. To say the Church doesn’t recognize divorce, only annulments is false. One must be civilly divorced before a marriage case can be filed with a tribunal.

A divorce is a legal civil action governed by the state.

An annulment is a statement of fact by a Church tribunal that a valid marriage never existed.

I am aware of the differences between a divorce and an annulment.

I have Bern told that the CC does not recognize divorce. There seem to be conflicting views on that subject on this board.

 

[EasterJoy]

Whether the marriage is valid at this point is not totally the main issue; it’s the family. A couple (whether married or not) has children and raises them together. If the parents separate, is this not detrimental to the children and to society? What is more important, our happiness (which can be fleeting) or the preservation of the family? If God’s grace is sufficient in any matter, then should it not be in marriages that are lackluster (I will not apply this to relationships that are still abusive which causes harm to the individuals involved-it is evident that the victim(s) should seek help to separate from the abusive situation).

The scenario I gave in the initial post, stated that the abuse has stopped but the victim feels demoralized on many levels but has nonetheless found peace and even joyous moments with the family. Things are not has one planned but they are good to say the least. Many unsolicited traumatic events happened that the couple worked through and remained loyal and devoted. Is this enough to remain married even if it is not under ideal circumstances since the reason to marry was due to an unplanned pregnancy. Does God want us to leave an invalid marriage or is it an excuse?

The marriage is valid until proven otherwise. The duty to live the common conjugal life exists unless a legitimate reason excusing a spouse from it *currently *exists.

The person you are describing is suffering from unhealed emotional harm, however. This person ought to try to see the work necessary to address and heal from that harm as a duty, too. That is an injury that could prevent both personal happiness, the work ideally done by a servant of God, and the joy with which that work ought to be done. I’d highly encourage the person to start looking at that work as work that is long past due and something that ought to properly be seen as a duty.

When there are people who need you, get that oxygen mask on! If you need the attentions of a doctor in order to return to the field, then find a doctor! Whatever it takes, do what you must in order to be available to be your best, both for your own sake but also for the sake of others. We cannot give what we do not have, but we are called to give. On that account, there is often a duty to have our own wounds seen to and to get help, when help is needed.

The person should not consider himself or herself competent to judge whether a marriage is irreparably harmed (because depression objectively harms that capacity to judge), but only to make the emergency decision that the common conjugal life is currently doing too much harm to continue with it for the time being, if and only if that is the case and only for as long as that is the case. The old emotional scarring needs to be seen to first, and once that is started the help of a pastor is needed to discern whether the view of the marriage is objectively what it seems to be. The marriage ought to be considered valid and the common conjugal life ought to be seen as a duty and a work of sanctity until carefully discerned to be otherwise. When that discernment is done, the person should not punish themselves for what they decide in good faith. Mercy, mercy, make mercy the order of the day.

When we are talking about the possibility of clinical depression, we are talking about something deeper than a personal desire for self-gratification. We are talking about a higher risk for suicide and premature death from other causes, we are talking about emotional scarring that can be passed on to children in the same household, we are talking about a condition that can quietly erode every relationship the person is in, we are talking about the loss of productive years to crippling emotional pain. This is not something to just “tough through,” not any more than we’d “tough through” heart failure or ulcers. When you have an incapacitating condition that can be treated, get it treated. The person you help will not just be yourself, and the losses suffered by continuing to wait cannot always be reclaimed later.

 

[Horton]

I am aware of the differences between a divorce and an annulment.

I have Bern told that the CC does not recognize divorce. There seem to be conflicting views on that subject on this board.

I think it’s more about what people “think” the Catholic Church teaches about marriage than what the actual teaching is. The Catholic Church does not recognize civil divorce as a means to end a marital bond. The Catholic Church does, however, understand that there are times when a civil remedy (divorce) is needed for financial protection or the care & safety of children. Even if a marriage is civilly dissolved, the Catholic Church would still consider the couple to have a sacramental bond and neither is free to re-marry.

It’s not an either/or with the Church. If one is divorced and wants to attempt another marriage, a determination of validity must be done by a tribunal. Once a petition is submitted and all the documentation & evidence is considered, the tribunal makes a finding of fact on the validity of the marriage.

So bottom line - The Church does not recognize civil dissolution (divorce) of a marriage but does understand that at times a civil dissolution is a necessity. Until a tribunal investigates the marriage, the Church considers the couple married.

 

[Still_Hoping]

I think it’s more about what people “think” the Catholic Church teaches about marriage than what the actual teaching is. The Catholic Church does not recognize civil divorce as a means to end a marital bond. The Catholic Church does, however, understand that there are times when a civil remedy (divorce) is needed for financial protection or the care & safety of children. Even if a marriage is civilly dissolved, the Catholic Church would still consider the couple to have a sacramental bond and neither is free to re-marry.

It’s not an either/or with the Church. If one is divorced and wants to attempt another marriage, a determination of validity must be done by a tribunal. Once a petition is submitted and all the documentation & evidence is considered, the tribunal makes a finding of fact on the validity of the marriage.

So bottom line - The Church does not recognize civil dissolution (divorce) of a marriage but does understand that at times a civil dissolution is a necessity. Until a tribunal investigates the marriage, the Church considers the couple married.

It becomes complicated when a couple has been divorced and want to remarry but can’t because an annulment was not granted or is taking more time than usual. I have a friend who got married young just to get out of her parent’s house because in our culture you were not to live with someone or on your own unless you were married. Her parents were strict and found it unbearable so she married the first guy that asked her. She then took the bold decision to divorce, they were not happy together, and married a divorced man who had a child (civilly of course). She lives in anxiety because she is not permitted to take communion and feels a need to.

I know many more cases like this, very sad to say the least. How many young people marry to please their parents or get out of a situation only to find out it was wrong…really wrong. I don’t think any of these people ever got an annulment; there seems to be this idea that it is a lengthy and cumbersome process that might eventually lead to a disappointing rejection.

 

[Still_Hoping]

The marriage is valid until proven otherwise. The duty to live the common conjugal life exists unless a legitimate reason excusing a spouse from it *currently *exists.

The person you are describing is suffering from unhealed emotional harm, however. This person ought to try to see the work necessary to address and heal from that harm as a duty, too. That is an injury that could prevent both personal happiness, the work ideally done by a servant of God, and the joy with which that work ought to be done. I’d highly encourage the person to start looking at that work as work that is long past due and something that ought to properly be seen as a duty.

When there are people who need you, get that oxygen mask on! If you need the attentions of a doctor in order to return to the field, then find a doctor! Whatever it takes, do what you must in order to be available to be your best, both for your own sake but also for the sake of others. We cannot give what we do not have, but we are called to give. On that account, there is often a duty to have our own wounds seen to and to get help, when help is needed.

The person should not consider himself or herself competent to judge whether a marriage is irreparably harmed (because depression objectively harms that capacity to judge), but only to make the emergency decision that the common conjugal life is currently doing too much harm to continue with it for the time being, if and only if that is the case and only for as long as that is the case. The old emotional scarring needs to be seen to first, and once that is started the help of a pastor is needed to discern whether the view of the marriage is objectively what it seems to be. The marriage ought to be considered valid and the common conjugal life ought to be seen as a duty and a work of sanctity until carefully discerned to be otherwise. When that discernment is done, the person should not punish themselves for what they decide in good faith. Mercy, mercy, make mercy the order of the day.

When we are talking about the possibility of clinical depression, we are talking about something deeper than a personal desire for self-gratification. We are talking about a higher risk for suicide and premature death from other causes, we are talking about emotional scarring that can be passed on to children in the same household, we are talking about a condition that can quietly erode every relationship the person is in, we are talking about the loss of productive years to crippling emotional pain. This is not something to just “tough through,” not any more than we’d “tough through” heart failure or ulcers. When you have an incapacitating condition that can be treated, get it treated. The person you help will not just be yourself, and the losses suffered by continuing to wait cannot always be reclaimed later.

You have a great wisdom and discernment. May I PM you?

 

[Horton]

It becomes complicated when a couple has been divorced and want to remarry but can’t because an annulment was not granted or is taking more time than usual. I have a friend who got married young just to get out of her parent’s house because in our culture you were not to live with someone or on your own unless you were married. Her parents were strict and found it unbearable so she married the first guy that asked her. She then took the bold decision to divorce, they were not happy together, and married a divorced man who had a child (civilly of course). She lives in anxiety because she is not permitted to take communion and feels a need to.

I know many more cases like this, very sad to say the least. How many young people marry to please their parents or get out of a situation only to find out it was wrong…really wrong. I don’t think any of these people ever got an annulment; there seems to be this idea that it is a lengthy and cumbersome process that might eventually lead to a disappointing rejection.

Your friend should speak to her priest about submitting a petition to the marriage tribunal. Rather than living in anxiety and without full communion, she may be able to rectify her situation. Yes, the process can be long, painful, and may not be the answer she is seeking, but there is only one way to be sure. Submit the petition.

 

[jmjZelie]

**
**
I think you’ve got it backwards. Because I’m up with my pal Grey on this. I’m calling you out of line here. Because you have no idea. You’ve no right to this. And you’re trying to get me between your thumb and forefinger. Not in way that make me feels uplifted in even a small way.

---

****So do you love me then. Truly. With all your heart. In a fair and open way. Do you feel your heart beating faster for me. Can you feel the love racing through your veins. Has it reached your eyes yet. Are they watering. And your hands. Are they shaking. Is your breath coming in gasps. Are you feeling absolutely torn about this. Can’t eat. Can’t sleep. Totally mesmerized?

Or is yours a theoretical love. Trotted out when something’s needed. Something needs doing. But then safely stowed back away. Hidden from sight until the call comes again. Until the urge to use crops up again?

Instinctual love’s not spousal love. And you know that. I mean the love for a kitten’s not the same as the cultivated love for your teenage son. So please put your words back in order. And find the right way with this. Don’t look for sorrow where none’s been offered. Look and find instead the pain that’s on ready display. Dig deeper into the message here. And understand. Realize that a truth’s been stated. A fair one. And you’ve attempted to redistribute it. To hide it off to one side. And muddy the clear. With love that you aren’t showing. For someone who truly needs it.

No. Don’t look at me. I’m not the subject here. I never was. I’m a stand in for this battle. I’m just asking you not to twist the knife. That’s all.

Peace Neofight. I’m sorry we crossed words like this. I mean you no harm. I’m a bit broken about it actually. But I take my role as champion seriously. I can’t roll with this. Knowing how things stand. Knowing the depth of this. Truly.

-Trident

Posts like this make me glad I can call you a friend. God bless you, Trident!

 

[Trident_H]

Posts like this make me glad I can call you a friend. God bless you, Trident!

Thank you so much Zelie. So much. And thank you for giving me your friendship too. It’s important to me. It really is.

Peace Zelie. Hope you’re being well taken care of by those close to you.

-Trident

 

[Still_Hoping]

Your friend should speak to her priest about submitting a petition to the marriage tribunal. Rather than living in anxiety and without full communion, she may be able to rectify her situation. Yes, the process can be long, painful, and may not be the answer she is seeking, but there is only one way to be sure. Submit the petition.

She is in the process but her husband doesn’t want to start an annulment process for his previous marriage. It seems that people consider the authority of the state higher than that of the CC. Why bother getting married in the Church if you don’t recognize the CC’s authority?

 

[Horton]

She is in the process but her husband doesn’t want to start an annulment process for his previous marriage. It seems that people consider the authority of the state higher than that of the CC. Why bother getting married in the Church if you don’t recognize the CC’s authority?

I’m sorry for your friend. We should pray her husband comes around to get their marriage regularized.

 

[Hope414]

Whether the marriage is valid at this point is not totally the main issue; it’s the family. A couple (whether married or not) has children and raises them together. If the parents separate, is this not detrimental to the children and to society? What is more important, our happiness (which can be fleeting) or the preservation of the family? If God’s grace is sufficient in any matter, then should it not be in marriages that are lackluster (I will not apply this to relationships that are still abusive which causes harm to the individuals involved-it is evident that the victim(s) should seek help to separate from the abusive situation).

The scenario I gave in the initial post, stated that the abuse has stopped but the victim feels demoralized on many levels but has nonetheless found peace and even joyous moments with the family. Things are not has one planned but they are good to say the least. Many unsolicited traumatic events happened that the couple worked through and remained loyal and devoted. Is this enough to remain married even if it is not under ideal circumstances since the reason to marry was due to an unplanned pregnancy. Does God want us to leave an invalid marriage or is it an excuse?

I find your posts interesting.

You don’t want us to know if you are male or female.

You don’t want us to know details.

And you don’t want us to know what the problem is.

Yet you seek advice.

So I will be blunt and to the point with my advice:

According to doctrine when you married your spouse you became one flesh. You are no less family to your spouse than you are with your children, siblings, or parents.

Your union with your spouse is more sacred than any of these because you gave a vow to God that you would be one flesh with your spouse.

“What God has joined together let no one tear asunder.”

No one includes your family. No one includes an adulterous partner. No one includes you. If you are trying to get Catholics to affirm your decision to divorce your spouse–stop it. It’s not Biblical.

The wisdom on this site is invaluable. Use it to heal your hurt. Use it to save your marriage.

Now, would you like to honestly discuss your hurt so someone can help you or would you like to continue dancing around your issues with the hope that someone will figure out your problems?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I find your posts interesting.

You don’t want us to know if you are male or female.

You don’t want us to know details.

And you don’t want us to know what the problem is.

Yet you seek advice.

So I will be blunt and to the point with my advice:

According to doctrine when you married your spouse you became one flesh. You are no less family to your spouse than you are with your children, siblings, or parents.

Your union with your spouse is more sacred than any of these because you gave a vow to God that you would be one flesh with your spouse.

“What God has joined together let no one tear asunder.”

No one includes your family. No one includes an adulterous partner. No one includes you. If you are trying to get Catholics to affirm your decision to divorce your spouse–stop it. It’s not Biblical.

The wisdom on this site is invaluable. Use it to heal your hurt. Use it to save your marriage.

Now, would you like to honestly discuss your hurt so someone can help you or would you like to continue dancing around your issues with the hope that someone will figure out your problems?

Maybe the OP doesn’t feel comfortable discussing the details, and that should be fine.
As for divorcing, I hope the OP can work to save their marriage. If the marriage isn’t sakvagable, then I would say a t the very least, a legal separation.
We don’t know all the details, and for all we know, the OP could be in an abusive marriage.

If the OP chooses to divorce, that is between the OP and God.