Divorce

[Tantum_ergo]

Admittiadly there are people on CAF who do not believe in annulments.

Some even seem to gleefully dance about when a person is denied. Even if that person was denied unjustly.

CAF can be very cruel and often misses the whole thing where Jesus showed how law was given not to punish but in love.

Do you KNOW the person was denied ‘unjustly’? I don’t see how you could know unless you sat on the tribunal. I’m just sayin’. And ‘unjustly’ implies what–malice?

I know I never in any way stated or implied that the OP should be ‘punished.’
Nor did I ever advocate any of Christ’s teachings on the subject that were NOT done in love.

 

[ricofall]

Consider this.

I am a Catholic. I know that being a Catholic is not easy. Neither was Christ’s life or his followers. The older I get, the more Catholic I become, the more I grow in my faith. Before I got married, I sat down and thought about worst case situations and what would I do. While I do not have the time to run through them all, I did think about what would happen if my wife left me for any reason and the Church would not annul. Would I remarry? Would I go to another church? Am I suppose to die lonely and a hermit? Thinking of these questions put marriage in perspective for me. If am I going to marry someone, I better be ready for all situations because divorce is not my road. Here is how I answered myself:

Would I remarry?: Only if allowed to by the Church
Would I go to another Church: No, I know to much to know where the fullness of the Truth is.
Am I suppose to die a lonely hermit?: First, Jesus is always with me. I am never really alone. Also, if God wants me to bear that burden, then I will. I also have to remember that my needs for my soul outweigh my needs of the flesh.

Something else to think about. Is it fair? I would say, not it is not in my eyes, but I am not the Judge, He is and I know his rules. To deny His rules would be denying Him. Yes, I am a sinner, but I try to be humble and will try my best to follow what laws He put forth.

I may not allows agree with the Catholic Church, but I am Catholic, I will follow her rules. I know when I have sinned and will try my best to avoid it. In my church, we have the stained glass images of the 13 apostles (12+1 Mattathias) it reminds me that my life is easy compared to theirs. Would you go to a place that you knew would kill you for your beliefs such as when Peter when back to Rome? I would like to think I would, but I also thank God that he has never called me to do that.

BTW: Tantum. I know that sometimes telling the Truth gets messy. You are always welcome to shed some Truth on any of my post.

 

[Luvtosew]

Some people were rude to him, no other way to put it .

One could of stated Church doctrines without putting him down. Many people on this forum are divorced, and well many have worst problems. Were all just humans, and well you can tell this bothered the OP a lot,
and a little compassion can go a long way. Hey he has found a new Church and I hope he and his new wife will be very happy.

 

[Luvtosew]

Hey I want to apologise if I was rude to anyone, it was not personal. So forgive me.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Some people were rude to him, no other way to put it .

One could of stated Church doctrines without putting him down. Many people on this forum are divorced, and well many have worst problems. Were all just humans, and well you can tell this bothered the OP a lot,
and a little compassion can go a long way. Hey he has found a new Church and I hope he and his new wife will be very happy.

Show me that, Luvtosew. The OP was deliberately derisive of the Church, speaking as if “hundreds of pounds” guaranteed that he would be free to remarry. Of course the people who responded, who didn’t give him immediate sympathy, tea and crumpets, are going to look like the bad guys. But the truth is the truth, and it was spoken in charity.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Some people were rude to him, no other way to put it . Rude? How?
One could of stated Church doctrines without putting him down. With respect, I rather thought that I and Ike did just that–stated Church doctrines without putting the OP down. Could you point out what you perceived as 'putting down?" Many people on this forum are divorced, and well many have worst problems. Were all just humans, and well you can tell this bothered the OP a lot,
and a little compassion can go a long way. Hey he has found a new Church and I hope he and his new wife will be very happy.

I don’t think that finding a ‘new church’ by rejecting the One True Church and living in mortal sin is a good recipe for happiness. I hope that he and his current spouse will one day find their way back to the True Church and do whatever is necessary to be in good standing because I think that is the way to TRUE happiness and TRUE happiness is what I wish for them and for all people, in Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[PRmerger]

And this is a reason why many have been forced to leave a church/religion that they truly love.

I find it disturbing that people would rather leave and find a church that conforms to their own views, rather than conform their views to Christ’s.

Isn’t that the essence of creating a god in one’s own image?

If you’re in a church that doesn’t challenge you to change your own opinions/morality/behavior, then I daresay that you’re in a church designed after the almighty self, rather than the Almighty.

For I can assure you that any Church that is led by Christ is going to demand things of you that you do not want to do.

To go “leave a church/religion that” you truly love (Catholicism) to find one that conforms to your own ideas/likes/preferences is to leave Christ.

 

[fm1982]

With the complexities of modern life, this is an issue that causes me great concern. Here’s a brief overview of where I find myself.

Married 6 years, 4 kids. Wife now says, no more children, get a vasectomy. I say no, I cannot do that, we should try NFP or abstaining. Wife says no, that’s not good enough, if I get pregnant, I get abortion. If you don’t get vasectomy and don’t have sex, I leave and divorce.

So my choices:

a) Vascetomy and live “happily” ever after - as if…

b) Try NFP, but if it fails, know that one of my children will be killed, and I have no legal say in the matter - will inevitably lead to divorce, how could I live with someone who would has no concern for life?

c) Abstain and she leaves

So if I choose a, I have committed a sin.

If I choose b, I will have committed a sin because I know that the child in question will be killed.

If I choose c, I will not be committing a sin, but getting a divorce. My reward for staying true to the teachings of the Church is a single life (at not yet 30 years old) with 4 children (there is no way, without getting into much detail that she’d get custody).

In all honesty, the likelihood of meeting a woman who would take on that kind of zoo is very small, but if one did come about, I would not be allowed to marry her if I wanted to be faithful to the Church. Now who is hurt by that? Anyone who’s raised children knows that 2 sets of hands are better than one, so the children are hurt again through no fault of their own.

So tell me again, how are my 4 children better off if I choose route c and follow the teachings of the Church. Wouldn’t they be better off if I just chose a and we could keep things together for a longer period of time?

In the past a and b wouldn’t be options at all and c would lead to her being shunned by the community for disobeying her husband and leaving.

We don’t live in the same world in which these “rules” were written. From where I’m standing, I might as well get sterilized in order to keep family harmony, because if c is chosen, what’s the difference really? Isn’t the final outcome - no more children - the same?

People can post all sorts of rules, and I understand why those rules are there, but didn’t Jesus give authority over the Church the Church leaders? Maybe that was His wisdom showing through in that He knew things would not always be as they were and that keeping the same rules for 2000 years would lead to innocents being punished.

 

[Luvtosew]

** I hope that he and his current spouse will one day find their way back to the True Church and do whatever is necessary to be in good standing because I think that is the way to TRUE happiness and TRUE happiness is what I wish for them and for all people, **

How? He already tried before he got remarried and he was given the boot. What else can
he do?

 

[PRmerger]

Now this is what the original poster said, he was divorced (on advice from his Priest at teh time)

This is licit for a priest to advise–Catholics may get divorced civilly.

met his second wife

I doubt the Catholic priest advised the OP to marry his second wife.

tried to get an annullment , paid and was turned down dispite his ex wife being quilty,

He was paying for the process. Not for an annulment. Paying $300 or whatever does not guarantee he gets what he wants. It is not an entitlement or a right to receive an annulment simply because you paid money.

so he got married in another church,

Sadly, he was not free to marry, as he was already married.

so why turn down the annullment that he applied for before he got remarried , now taking everthing he told us was true??

Apparently the marriage tribunal discerned that a valid sacramental marriage was in existence.

At the time of the conferring of the sacrament of marriage, the universe is changed forever, so to speak. What existed 30 seconds before the exchange of vows before God exists no more–after the sacrament of matrimony is conferred, a seal that only death can sever is imparted.

Even a civil divorce, even infidelity, even drunkeness and wanton behavior cannot change the existence of a sacramental bond between 2 people, once it is conferred.

 

[PRmerger]

How? He already tried before he got remarried and he was given the boot. What else can
he do?

Can you explain what you mean, Luv, by “given the boot” at his Catholic chuch?

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Here’s what I would suggest: Try to imagine that, for some reason, you ended up being best friends with the current pope, Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger). Lets say you went fishing with him once or month, and spent a day with him at a lake each month, just you and him fishing and drinking beer. What would he say to you about your situation? If you don’t know Pope Benedict the man well enough to imagine what he’d say to you, I recommend that you read some of his writings, to get a feel for him and his viewpoints and pastoral approach to people. There are tons and tons of his writings on the Internet. I personally feel like I get a sense of him when I read his first encyclical “God is Love.” (Deus Caritas Est)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

 

[Luvtosew]

Can you explain what you mean, Luv, by “given the boot” at his Catholic chuch?

they refused his annullment so he changed Churches.

But I know what your going to say, he did it to himself. but I guess he wanted to get remarried so he did and well he also made his decision.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With the complexities of modern life, this is an issue that causes me great concern. Here’s a brief overview of where I find myself.

Married 6 years, 4 kids. Wife now says, no more children, get a vasectomy. I say no, I cannot do that, we should try NFP or abstaining. Wife says no, that’s not good enough, if I get pregnant, I get abortion. If you don’t get vasectomy and don’t have sex, I leave and divorce.

So my choices:

a) Vascetomy and live “happily” ever after - as if…

b) Try NFP, but if it fails, know that one of my children will be killed, and I have no legal say in the matter - will inevitably lead to divorce, how could I live with someone who would has no concern for life?

c) Abstain and she leaves

So if I choose a, I have committed a sin.

If I choose b, I will have committed a sin because I know that the child in question will be killed.

If I choose c, I will not be committing a sin, but getting a divorce. My reward for staying true to the teachings of the Church is a single life (at not yet 30 years old) with 4 children (there is no way, without getting into much detail that she’d get custody).

In all honesty, the likelihood of meeting a woman who would take on that kind of zoo is very small, but if one did come about, I would not be allowed to marry her if I wanted to be faithful to the Church. Now who is hurt by that? Anyone who’s raised children knows that 2 sets of hands are better than one, so the children are hurt again through no fault of their own.

So tell me again, how are my 4 children better off if I choose route c and follow the teachings of the Church. Wouldn’t they be better off if I just chose a and we could keep things together for a longer period of time?

In the past a and b wouldn’t be options at all and c would lead to her being shunned by the community for disobeying her husband and leaving.

We don’t live in the same world in which these “rules” were written. From where I’m standing, I might as well get sterilized in order to keep family harmony, because if c is chosen, what’s the difference really? Isn’t the final outcome - no more children - the same?

People can post all sorts of rules, and I understand why those rules are there, but didn’t Jesus give authority over the Church the Church leaders? Maybe that was His wisdom showing through in that He knew things would not always be as they were and that keeping the same rules for 2000 years would lead to innocents being punished.

Innocents have always suffered. . .even Jesus. We can’t rewrite the rules.

We can’t make the Trinity into the Dynamic Duo because “nobody understand the Holy Spirit anyway but everybody knows about Jesus and God”. The Church doesn’t have the authority to change God’s teachings.

I sympathize with you, but what you’re really saying is, "My wife is going to sin, one way or the other, and she is demanding that I sin too. And she’s making it harder by the circumstances being that ‘innocents will suffer’.

You do see, I know, that by joining in her sin you will be sinning as well. . .and trying to justify it by saying the sin of contraception is ‘better’ than the sins of divorce. But all grave sins are grave sins.

What about praying? More and more prayer? getting the priest involved? Getting your wife education --she is not made of stone and incapable of changing her mind, right? Don’t sell her short.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Can you explain what you mean, Luv, by “given the boot” at his Catholic chuch?

they refused his annullment so he changed Churches.

But I know what your going to say, he did it to himself. but I guess he wanted to get remarried so he did and well he also made his decision.

They did not ‘refuse the annulment.’

When the tribunal examined all the evidence, they found that the first marriage was, and remained valid.

HE refused to accept the truth and changed churches, so HE ‘gave the boot’ to the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

 

[Luvtosew]

Same thing.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Same thing.

No, it is most certainly NOT the same thing. What about this are you not understanding?

 

[Luvtosew]

refusing his annullment was saying his prior marriage was not void.

So tell me what do you want the OP to do???

 

[TheRealJuliane]

refusing his annullment was saying his prior marriage was not void.

So tell me what do you want the OP to do???

His marriage was valid, according to the tribunal. He can appeal.

It is not what I want the OP to do. He has already left the Church. He is angry because he feels he paid for his marriage to be “dissolved,” and he believes that is what should have happened. Others have explained the process over and over and you refuse to listen.

I think the original post was made simply to stir up this forum. I have seen others like it, and they are made by trolls. If that is the case, he has succeeded.

 

[aicirt]

Consider this.

I am a Catholic. I know that being a Catholic is not easy. Neither was Christ’s life or his followers. The older I get, the more Catholic I become, the more I grow in my faith. Before I got married, I sat down and thought about worst case situations and what would I do. While I do not have the time to run through them all, I did think about what would happen if my wife left me for any reason and the Church would not annul. Would I remarry? Would I go to another church? Am I suppose to die lonely and a hermit? Thinking of these questions put marriage in perspective for me. If am I going to marry someone, I better be ready for all situations because divorce is not my road. Here is how I answered myself:

Would I remarry?: Only if allowed to by the Church
Would I go to another Church: No, I know to much to know where the fullness of the Truth is.
Am I suppose to die a lonely hermit?: First, Jesus is always with me. I am never really alone. Also, if God wants me to bear that burden, then I will. I also have to remember that my needs for my soul outweigh my needs of the flesh.

Something else to think about. Is it fair? I would say, not it is not in my eyes, but I am not the Judge, He is and I know his rules. To deny His rules would be denying Him. Yes, I am a sinner, but I try to be humble and will try my best to follow what laws He put forth.

I may not allows agree with the Catholic Church, but I am Catholic, I will follow her rules. I know when I have sinned and will try my best to avoid it. In my church, we have the stained glass images of the 13 apostles (12+1 Mattathias) it reminds me that my life is easy compared to theirs. Would you go to a place that you knew would kill you for your beliefs such as when Peter when back to Rome? I would like to think I would, but I also thank God that he has never called me to do that.

BTW: Tantum. I know that sometimes telling the Truth gets messy. You are always welcome to shed some Truth on any of my post.

Good post. Are these projected scenarios discussed in Cana conferences? Because, if they are not, they should be.
I doubt that many understand that even if your spouse is unfaithful to you and all that that implies (shame, betrayal, lack of income, raising kids by yourself, having a poorer life than your ex who has gone on to marry and have additional children) you cannot wed again even if you do divorce. WOW…wonder how many would still marry?