Divorce

[FCGeorge]

There is much to be bitter about. But strong posters here remind me often that heroic virtue is a good thing, even though it often feels awful. Suffering has redemptive value. I am never really alone, of course, but so many Catholics don’t understand the Church’s teaching and think I am making a martyr of myself by not going out and dating and bringing home a stepfather for my children. That’s not the kind of “support” or empathy I need–it may feel nice and sympathetic, but it isn’t good for my soul. The truth is hard, but it is worth it in the long run.

Hello Evelyn,

PRmerger had a very good reply. I would just add that the $10 spent on getting the book *The Gift of Self *by Maria Campanella is well worth it. I’d even send you a copy of it myself… I have a few

I pray that you and your husband both seek the truth through this process. In the long run… the eternal run… it may be best that the Roman Rota would be the court of second instance.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[joanofarc2008]

Hello Evelyn,

PRmerger had a very good reply. I would just add that the $10 spent on getting the book *The Gift of Self *by Maria Campanella is well worth it. I’d even send you a copy of it myself… I have a few

I pray that you and your husband both seek the truth through this process. In the long run… the eternal run… it may be best that the Roman Rota would be the court of second instance.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

What do you think the Roma Rota may offer her at this point that another Court of Second Instance will not?

 

[Gorgias]

I do, of course, think that anyone who might want to date should get through the annulment process so that he’d know whether he is truly free to date or not before getting into some heart-wrenching situation in which either hearts will be broken or souls endangered.

Exactly! I somehow suspect that many (most?) of those who re-marry outside the Church do so not out of a desire to leave the faith in which they’d participated, but because they found themselves in a situation where waiting a year or two for an annulment ruling seemed untenable (in the face of moving ahead with a relationship that they’d begun, and in which they’d found hope for marriage). Better to attempt the process early than to place oneself in the “near occasion of sin”, it seems…

 

[rainbow1]

Exactly! I somehow suspect that many (most?) of those who re-marry outside the Church do so not out of a desire to leave the faith in which they’d participated, but because they found themselves in a situation where waiting a year or two for an annulment ruling seemed untenable (in the face of moving ahead with a relationship that they’d begun, and in which they’d found hope for marriage). Better to attempt the process early than to place oneself in the “near occasion of sin”, it seems…

I so agree. But in a situation like the OP , where he already has made a commitment and created another family, I am curious about what people have found to help them (to at the very least remain very friendly to one another) when the new spouse is not Catholic and the Catholic has a new desire to return to the Church? In other words, the Catholic has changed game plans and the new spouse of a different faith potentially feels a sort of abandonment? In a situation like this, although maybe not for the OP since he seems to be very resilient, tension potentially could build up to the point of another divorce happening, and then the children from the previous marriage would go through their second divorce and the child from the new marriage could go through a divorce also. And then, the Catholic would only be raising the child from the second marriage potentially 50% of the time, and maybe even far less if the child’s primary placement by the court is primarily into the other parent’s (the non Catholic’s) home. I could easily see how the children could build up an unfortunate hatred towards the faith. How does a Catholic who married civilly after a divorce maintain their responsibility and commitment to their newly established family even if it is not deemed a sacramental marriage to the Church?

 

[Luvtosew]

I so agree. But in a situation like the OP , where he already has made a commitment and created another family, I am curious about what people have found to help them (to at the very least remain very friendly to one another) when the new spouse is not Catholic and the Catholic has a new desire to return to the Church? In other words, the Catholic has changed game plans and the new spouse of a different faith potentially feels a sort of abandonment? In a situation like this, although maybe not for the OP since he seems to be very resilient, tension potentially could build up to the point of another divorce happening, and then the children from the previous marriage would go through their second divorce and the child from the new marriage could go through a divorce also. And then, the Catholic would only be raising the child from the second marriage potentially 50% of the time, and maybe even far less if the child’s primary placement by the court is primarily into the other parent’s (the non Catholic’s) home. I could easily see how the children could build up an unfortunate hatred towards the faith. How does a Catholic who married civilly after a divorce maintain their responsibility and commitment to their newly established family even if it is not deemed a sacramental marriage to the Church?

Easy, they keep Jesus in the forefront of their mind. the Church has never come before Jesus for me. I am a Christian before I"m a Catholic. And I also believe Jesus to be forgiving when one repents, and it sure sounds like the OP has repented, but still is being punished for no fault of his own, and I sure hope the Church does’t make him pay for the rest of his life.

 

[rainbow1]

Easy, they keep Jesus in the forefront of their mind. the Church has never come before Jesus for me. I am a Christian before I"m a Catholic. And I also believe Jesus to be forgiving when one repents, and it sure sounds like the OP has repented, but still is being punished for no fault of his own, and I sure hope the Church does’t make him pay for the rest of his life.

Sorry to regress here a minute, but something funny popped into my head when I read your post and saw the part about keeping Jesus in the forefront of your mind. I decided to do that several years ago and bought this wonderful (and large) statue of Jesus for my backyard that I can see out of my kitchen sink window. That way, when I cook, which is alot, I am always looking out my window and seeing “Jesus”…and it reminds me to say a prayer…so I keep Jesus on my mind alot this way…and actually I look at the statue so much, that my large dog learned to sit next to the statue in a statue-like position when she wants my attention…it is soooo funny…
sorry for the regression…

 

[Luvtosew]

Sorry to regress here a minute, but something funny popped into my head when I read your post and saw the part about keeping Jesus in the forefront of your mind. I decided to do that several years ago and bought this wonderful (and large) statue of Jesus for my backyard that I can see out of my kitchen sink window. That way, when I cook, which is alot, I am always looking out my window and seeing “Jesus”…and it reminds me to say a prayer…so I keep Jesus on my mind alot this way…and actually I look at the statue so much, that my large dog learned to sit next to the statue in a statue-like position when she wants my attention…it is soooo funny…
sorry for the regression…

Pets are so smart aren’t they, they are so much fun.

 

[PRmerger]

Easy, they keep Jesus in the forefront of their mind. the Church has never come before Jesus for me.

This is a false dichotomy, Luv. There is no such thing as either Jesus or His Church. Without the Church you serve a bodyless head in Jesus. Without Jesus you serve a decapitated body in the church.

Each and every thing you proclaim about Jesus came to you through the Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[ValPal]

Well, I understand what you’re trying to say, but you’re not exactly correct. “Valid” or “invalid” has a particular precise meaning in this context. In “invalid” marriage con be convalidated; in this example (two Catholics who marry in a civil ceremony) they are not in an “invalid marriage” – they can not have their “marriage” convalidated.

If the two Catholics had attempted to follow the proper form, but somehow went wrong (they didn’t use a minister who had the proper delegation to allow him to be the celebrant for the wedding, or they didn’t have two witnesses), then this situation would be known as a “defect of form”. This can be remedied by a convalidation.

If, on the other hand, the Catholics didn’t attempt to follow the correct form (e.g., they just went to the JP), then the situation is known as a “lack of form”. As I mentioned, this cannot be convalidated, and it’s not known as an “invalid marriage”. In order to correct this situation, they would need to go to their parish and go through the whole process, making sure that they have no impediments to marriage, that they follow the form, and they exchange consent during a wedding ceremony.

Father David recently posted about convalidations. His excellent explanation answered the above.

In your “lack of form” case, the attempted marriage can be convalidated. “Convalidation” has to do with the fact that there is a legally recognized civil marriage in place, and that the couple wishes to regularize there marriage with the Church. Convalidation would not apply if the civil marriage were invalid.

 

[ValPal]

I found the relevant post. See post #8 in the thread below:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8825898

 

[ricofall]

Easy, they keep Jesus in the forefront of their mind. the Church has never come before Jesus for me. I am a Christian before I"m a Catholic.

Just to point out that Catholics are Christians. In fact, Catholics are the original Christians.

 

[Luvtosew]

Just to point out that Catholics are Christians. In fact, Catholics are the original Christians.

Well were not hear to decipher who or who isn’t the Church, but the Church is not Christian if they don’t believe what Jesus said, that we are to forgive seventy times seven.

When 3 men on Earth, a Priest (of doctoral statue or versed in cannon law) and two clerics can decide whether or not a marriage is annulled and sentence people to the rest of their life on their decision I find is over use of power. We have one high Priest and that is Jesus.

Now the Church should concel people in this condition not punish them. But sometimes they refuse to allow the person to receive communion, a real punishment, I’m not too sure Jesus would be pleased with that at all, in fact I believe he would not be pleased.

Anyone who wants to follow their man made decisions is free to do so. But is the opinion of peeople going to change what happened , no, since the people who wish to follow what they decide is like taking Almighty God out of the picture, well 3 people said it was ok, so now its ok for me to be in another marraige, doesn’t change anything. I would say they are holding the Eucharists to the level of a dogbone, if your good you get the bone, if not you don’t.

That is what I"m saying. I mean no disrespect, just saying how I see it.

Also I never remember Jesus saying to anyone, well lets see, I’ll get back to you once I decide if your sin was forgiven or not, no he said, your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more.

 

[PRmerger]

Well were not hear to decipher who or who isn’t the Church, but the Church is not Christian if they don’t believe what Jesus said, that we are to forgive seventy times seven.

Is there a teaching in the Church that you think states that we are NOT to forgive 70 times 7?

 

[PRmerger]

When 3 men on Earth, a Priest (of doctoral statue or versed in cannon law) and two clerics can decide whether or not a marriage is annulled and sentence people to the rest of their life on their decision I find is over use of power.

Why do you accept the authority of the Church to say that a couple is married? If the Church has no such “power” then why get married in the Church in the first place?

We have one high Priest and that is Jesus.

Amen!

And, curiously, the ONLY way you know that this is true is through the POWER of the Catholic Church–which has discerned that this is part of God’s revelation and kept it in His Holy Word.

 

[Luvtosew]

I got married by a Justice of the Peace, and I am married not matter what the Church says.
No the Catholic Church is not the way I know Jesus is our high Priest, they say the Pope is. I don’t want to get into whether I believe all the Church teachings or not, its pretty apparent I don’t.

Oh and all my husband and I need to do is get our marriage blessed, due to ignorance and a technicalitiy. So thats a bit hypocritical isn’t it.

POWER of the Catholic Church yes very powerful and they use their power.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You speak like a Protestant, Luv.

Why not put “dissenting Catholic” as your religion? It’s pretty obvious that you are objecting to the Church’s authority.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Luvtosew, the Church absolutely agrees that you are civilly married. There is no argument about that. The Church does get to say, however, that if you are a Catholic and wish to have the marvelous privilege of a sacramental marriage, there is a particular way to go about that.

This is a whole different animal than divorce and remarriage. The Church recognizes my civil divorce and is totally fine with it because of the situation. It wasn’t a sin, and there isn’t any punishment.

In many places, where they just don’t have recourse to a Tribunal for practical reasons, people who divorce don’t get to remarry again, period, because there is no way to prove that the dissolved civil marriage wasn’t also an indisoluble sacramental one. It used to be like this everywhere, even for Protestants, and it still is in some denominations. In the church I left, if there was no adultery involved, you couldn’t divorce. It was better to be beaten to death and know I was “in God’s will” than to leave an abusive situation.

The Tribunal process we have in the USA is actually a huge blessing (even though it seems to be taking forever), because those “three men” have been given the authority, delegated by the bishop, to consider the possibility of nullity. This is not the default, and never has been. Not all that long ago, I not only wouldn’t have been able to ask for an investigation, I would have been unable to escape my husband via civil divorce.

A declaration of nullity and the freedom it brings are a huge luxury in our time and place, and not something to be demanded.

 

[Luvtosew]

You speak like a Protestant, Luv.

Why not put “dissenting Catholic” as your religion? It’s pretty obvious that you are objecting to the Church’s authority.

I know and your right, I didn’t realize it myself when I first came here, but yes I am discovering how I truely feel, it could be to my ignorance all these years about what really the CC teaches on certain subjects, just having basic cathecism.

It does leave me in kinda a bind now on what to think anymore, and has left me feeling so unsure about my Catholic faith or lack of Catholic faith now,. It has quite turned my whole upside down actually and while I was ready several years ago to get my marriage blessed in the Church

I came here and now I’m really not sure, in no way meaning I do not plan on staying with my husband till death do we part, and if he would divorce me I’m sure I would not remarry, so that is not an issue, ie being free to remarry again is not in my agenda.

So yes you are right, and I will be honest to admit it.

also to be a Catholic they say one must believe and submit to all Catholic dogma and I honor that, I do not take the host except spiritually , but right now I am not ready to recommit by getting my marriage blessed as that would make me a hypocrit and well a liar at this point. Its a dilemma.

 

[agapewolf]

I got married by a Justice of the Peace, and I am married not matter what the Church says.
No the Catholic Church is not the way I know Jesus is our high Priest, they say the Pope is. I don’t want to get into whether I believe all the Church teachings or not, its pretty apparent I don’t.

Oh and all my husband and I need to do is get our marriage blessed, due to ignorance and a technicalitiy. So thats a bit hypocritical isn’t it.

POWER of the Catholic Church yes very powerful and they use their power.

I guess I don’t get why its so hard to understand.

The state has laws… in order to have a valid marriage civilly you have to do certain things, get married by someone they have appointed, follow their rules. 2 people can’t just go on and do their own thing, declare themselves married, and expect the state to recognize it.

THe Church, which is Christ’s bride also has rules you have to follow. In order to have valid sacraments, you have to have valid form and matter. For Eucharist, you need a priest to say the words (form) and have bread and wine (matter). Same for all the sacraments.

How exactly is this “using their power”? You’re thinking of it upside down. In order to unite us with the rest of the church, we have rituals. these rituals guard the sacraments in order to care for our souls.

And by the way, Christ appointed the pope as leader in Matthew 16.

 

[Luvtosew]

I understand everything perfectly well.

**Christ appointed the pope as leader in Matthew 16. ** Your referring to Peter I know.

Peter was never referred to being a Pope in the Bible, and if he was Paul wouldn’t of said to him what he said in Gal 2:11-21, no one would talk to a Pope like that and get away with it. Peter was going back to his Jewish beliefs, he was a Jew with Jews and a Gentile with Gentiles.

The Catholic Church declared themselves as Christ’s bride. and the word Pope was first used somewhere in the middle of the 2nd century.

Yes I know the church has rituals and its the sacrements that save your souls, and without your souls are dammed, the Church has made that clear.