Divorce

[rainbow1]

I know and your right, I didn’t realize it myself when I first came here, but yes I am discovering how I truely feel, it could be to my ignorance all these years about what really the CC teaches on certain subjects, just having basic cathecism.

It does leave me in kinda a bind now on what to think anymore, and has left me feeling so unsure about my Catholic faith or lack of Catholic faith now,. It has quite turned my whole upside down actually and while I was ready several years ago to get my marriage blessed in the Church

I came here and now I’m really not sure, in no way meaning I do not plan on staying with my husband till death do we part, and if he would divorce me I’m sure I would not remarry, so that is not an issue, ie being free to remarry again is not in my agenda.

So yes you are right, and I will be honest to admit it.

also to be a Catholic they say one must believe and submit to all Catholic dogma and I honor that, I do not take the host except spiritually , but right now I am not ready to recommit by getting my marriage blessed as that would make me a hypocrit and well a liar at this point. Its a dilemma.

Luv,
If I were there right now I would give you the great biggest hug I have ever given anybody in my life. Do not worry about labels…like “The best Catholic” , “The next best Catholic”, “A not so good Catholic”, “A horrible Catholic”…“A Never-was Catholic”…“A Maybe could be Catholic”…our Lord was very, very explicit to His followers about people judging other people and about how things usually end up with those who are considered least usually end up first. After having gone through a horrible divorce myself, the one thing I have learned is to be very patient and to “wait” in the peace of the Lord for the Lord to decide things for Himself, because rarely do things on this earth end up truly being a reflection of His most pure and holy Love. Things here are very distorted, although we still try to do our very best …and sometimes the best thing we can do is just sit quietly in adoration and let the Lord figure it all out. The Catholic Church that we know and love starts with a Capital “C”…it was founded by Christ…but the human element, the mistakes of the people, from Popes down to the lay person, and the greediness, selfishness, and judgementalism of Her people reduces the earthly reality to a small “c” in many instances. But even those who do the judging are trying to do their best…at least I hope and trust they are. But do not be discouraged …transcend above the worry…trust that our Lord, in His timing , and only His timing , will make all things well. You, as a lover of our Lord, have every much right to call yourself a Catholic (with a capital C) as any other person on this thread. I will pray and especially lot for you today. I applaud your stating your opinions and hope you do not stop.

 

[rainbow1]

Beginning to wonder if we took a poll , if the majority of Catholics in the world would feel that if a person does not agree 100% with the way the annulment process is run, should they leave the church?
I am beginning to get new insight onto the sad statistic that some 80% of divorced Catholics leave the Church… at least I think it is sad…perhaps another poll could determine what % of Catholics feel remorse that this happens…or feel responsible to help change those statistics…

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Oh and all my husband and I need to do is get our marriage blessed, due to ignorance and a technicalitiy. So thats a bit hypocritical isn’t it.

Why is it hypocritical?

BTW, pay no attention to those who wish to draw dividing lines between Catholics.

 

[rainbow1]

Why is it hypocritical?

BTW, pay no attention to those who wish to draw dividing lines between Catholics.

 

[faithfully]

I got married by a Justice of the Peace, and I am married not matter what the Church says.
No the Catholic Church is not the way I know Jesus is our high Priest, they say the Pope is. I don’t want to get into whether I believe all the Church teachings or not, its pretty apparent I don’t.

Oh and all my husband and I need to do is get our marriage blessed, due to ignorance and a technicalitiy. So thats a bit hypocritical isn’t it.

POWER of the Catholic Church yes very powerful and they use their power.

It’s not hypocritical to allow people to get it right. I think that’s the beauty of our Church. We always have the option to get things straight… Also, I don’t think it’s so much a USE of power. I have to think of the term that’s on the tip of my tongue… will be back in a bit!

I know and your right, I didn’t realize it myself when I first came here, but yes I am discovering how I truely feel, it could be to my ignorance all these years about what really the CC teaches on certain subjects, just having basic cathecism.

It does leave me in kinda a bind now on what to think anymore, and has left me feeling so unsure about my Catholic faith or lack of Catholic faith now,. It has quite turned my whole upside down actually and while I was ready several years ago to get my marriage blessed in the Church

I came here and now I’m really not sure, in no way meaning I do not plan on staying with my husband till death do we part, and if he would divorce me I’m sure I would not remarry, so that is not an issue, ie being free to remarry again is not in my agenda.

So yes you are right, and I will be honest to admit it.

also to be a Catholic they say one must believe and submit to all Catholic dogma and I honor that, I do not take the host except spiritually , but right now I am not ready to recommit by getting my marriage blessed as that would make me a hypocrit and well a liar at this point. Its a dilemma.

My personal recommendation would be to start reading. You will start to see things and say “I didn’t know that!” And then you read more on THAT until you have a better understanding. Many of us have had HUGE aha! moments. And huge WOW!!! How did I miss that growing up. I actually compare this a bit to what’s going on right now with the change at mass, and all the new verbage. I’m tripping over myself over and over again. Partly because I just KNOW the old words, and they are so carved into my brain, I haven’t really even THOUGHT abut them. I just say them. And NOW, well, I’m having to give more thought. More thought to feel the difference, and hear the beauty. And THEN it starts to come. Take your time. Talk to God. Tell him you’re confused. Do not worry about all the rules as of yet. They will start to make sense (even if you don’t like some of them).

Hugs and prayers!

 

[rainbow1]

I am curious as to why Luv feels it would be hypocritical…it may not be rule related even…

 

[mamaslo]

The Church was given to protect the deposit of faith. What is bound on earth is bound in heaven. Have you ever wondered why they take 40 years to update anything worth it’s salt? It is because of all the prayer, and study, and thinking, etc that must be done int God’s time and not our time.

Many of us try to word or explain things the church teaches and you have at your fingertips, the Catechism that really explains things well. It is only the start, but the Holy Spirit has used it just like He has scripture, and nature to teach me truth. Am I done? Nope.

It is good you are asking questions, but maybe it is just the writing style but there seems to be a “grr” under a lot of what you respond. Keep in mind that most of us are not eloquent writers and if it is at all possible (I haven’t been completely successful either) try to not take it personal when someone slams you…or what seems like a slam. I haven’t done a great job with that either, but…here I go rambling.

Welcome to ask and seek and people here are more than open to explain, but you are right to use your head but seek answers and ask “why?”. I trust what the Church has protected and defined. That is what is settled for me, sometimes a better explanation needs to be written, but they are consistent and have been.

peace.

 

[ricofall]

Well were not hear to decipher who or who isn’t the Church, but the Church is not Christian if they don’t believe what Jesus said, that we are to forgive seventy times seven

I think there is a misunderstanding here. To forgive is different than to forget. For example, if you had a friend that stole your retirement money from you. He promised you that your investment will net you returns every month. He ends up stealing the money for a Ponzi scheme. He gets caught, goes to jail and then gets released. He ask for your forgiveness and you extend it to them. 6 months later, he states that he has another investment and wants you to invest like nothing ever happened. Would you do it? Remember that you forgave him so all should be well.

Jesus told us to forgive, but we also have to pay for our sins, even after forgiveness. Even if you look at your laws as a country, some laws will still punish you even after you complete your jail time. The state has forgiven you, but it will not forget the crime you did. Even when God forgave his ‘Stiff neck people’, he still punished them for their sins.

It seems that you are having issues for your faith. I did to when I started to look at going back into the church years ago. Other faiths were easier because they did not have many rules, or they were always forgiving and welcoming. I was told that I did not need a priest to forgive, just God. It is ok to be divorced 3, 4 ,5 times because God forgives all. Just sin away and ask for forgiveness. After all, we are all sinners so its ok to sin. I just need to read the Bible, and pick out my passages that made sense to me (being my own pope). It all made me have that feel good warmth inside. Then I looked around and saw people were given a free pass to sin. Why try to be good if God forgives and forgets all of your sins.

I find that being Catholic is hard. Being just a Christian is easy. I may not like all what the Church as dictated, but I will listen and do my best to obey. The same reasoning that a child might obey his/her parent. A child does not understand why they have to go to school, dress properly, eat properly and so forth. As they get older, they will understand more and more. The same goes for me, as I get older, I understand my faith more and more. I understand why things are the way they are. Keep the faith.

 

[agapewolf]

I understand everything perfectly well.

**Christ appointed the pope as leader in Matthew 16. ** Your referring to Peter I know.

Peter was never referred to being a Pope in the Bible, and if he was Paul wouldn’t of said to him what he said in Gal 2:11-21, no one would talk to a Pope like that and get away with it. Peter was going back to his Jewish beliefs, he was a Jew with Jews and a Gentile with Gentiles.

The Catholic Church declared themselves as Christ’s bride. and the word Pope was first used somewhere in the middle of the 2nd century.

Yes I know the church has rituals and its the sacrements that save your souls, and without your souls are dammed, the Church has made that clear.

The name “pope” doesn’t matter here…the popes have apostolic succession…we can trace it all the way back to peter. It’s in revelation that the church is Christ’s bride as well as at the crucifixion. These are some basic tenants of the faith. You’re really showing how much you don’t know and understand here.

You’re not answering actual points brought to you, just commenting in a sarcastic way. I won’t participate in a discussion like that

 

[rainbow1]

The name “pope” doesn’t matter here…the popes have apostolic succession…we can trace it all the way back to peter. It’s in revelation that the church is Christ’s bride as well as at the crucifixion. These are some basic tenants of the faith. You’re really showing how much you don’t know and understand here.

You’re not answering actual points brought to you, just commenting in a sarcastic way. I won’t participate in a discussion like that

I didn’t understand her as being sarcastic, I understood her as hurting. I am not sure that any of us know exactly how much Luv knows, but she does seem to have a whole lot of knowledge about being a caring person and a good and open heart from having read alot of her posts…

I hope you do stay in the discussion…we are a church family…we need one another despite our differences…we all have contributions to give…we all need to balance each other out…

I see a parallel in some ways between marriage being seen as non permanent…and church family members being seen as non permanent… but all relationships are sacred…church family relationships, relationships with civil spouses, relationships with ex spouses, etc…God is in all of them… we all need to be able to be truthful about our thoughts/feelings and learn from each other…edify each other…be humble enough to know we all need to learn from one another… none of us are disposible…

 

[rainbow1]

It is possible that even with full knowledge of the faith, or a full desire to understand more and more truth, that a person can have individual issues that would make the annulment process as it stands (and I hope for reform, and don’t consider that against the faith for saying it) to be an unhelpful process.
For example, what about a hypothetical Catholic spouse and non Catholic spouse where the non Catholic spouse civilly divorces the Catholic spouse against his/her wishes. Say the non Catholic spouse is an emotionally/ perhaps even physically abusive spouse. Perhaps after years of reflection and growth, the Catholic spouse decides it would be a good thing to get remarried to a very decent Catholic person who would be an excellent step parent. But the divorced Catholic spouse realizes

1. the abusive spouse would lie in the annulment process and many of the witnesses would also lie to prevent the Catholic from ever remarrying
2. the abusive spouse would begin once again to emotionally and probably physically abuse the child (smart enough to leave no bruises for a social service team to find) in order to retaliate should the Catholic bring up any issues to a Church tribunal
3. the Catholic’s fertility is decreasing and she may never have children again if she doesnt remarry soon
4. the Catholic has no witnesses since in the cycle of abuse the victim is frequently silenced
5. the Catholic believes that there never was a sacramental marriage to begin with…
   I see it very possible in this scenario, for the Catholic spouse to give up on the system and do what he/she thinks God would have him/her to do.
   We can talk about how the Catholic could offer up the rest of her life to God and never remarry and say that is admirable, but is it really and truly? Is that would our God would want?
   This is just a scenario that I see that could happen and I suspect there are lots and lots more. I think the Catholic may remarry , feeling for certain in his/her heart that he has done nothing wrong…but then suffers tremendously in not recieving the Eucharist and also in not having support from his/her brothers and sisters in Christ.
   I am very concerned about scenarios like this and the many more I can think up in my head…and I think the Church has a responsibility to figure out what can be done…and by saying the “Church” I am not laying this in the lap of the tribunals or the priests or Pope…I am laying this one in the laps of the devout lay people …people on CAF who love their faith…because we are the ones with experience in marriage and need to help the church to reform based on what we are responsible to find out to help the individual. Yes, the Church has a format that is designed to help the majority, but when 80% of divorced Catholics are leaving, I say it is time that we do some investigating…not to change the instructions of Christ or the Church, but to figure out ways to change our methods of reaching and helping divorced CAtholics to heal. And this includes the annulment process itself.

 

[Luvtosew]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. To forgive is different than to forget. For example, if you had a friend that stole your retirement money from you. He promised you that your investment will net you returns every month. He ends up stealing the money for a Ponzi scheme. He gets caught, goes to jail and then gets released. He ask for your forgiveness and you extend it to them. 6 months later, he states that he has another investment and wants you to invest like nothing ever happened. Would you do it? Remember that you forgave him so all should be well.

Jesus told us to forgive, but we also have to pay for our sins, even after forgiveness. Even if you look at your laws as a country, some laws will still punish you even after you complete your jail time. The state has forgiven you, but it will not forget the crime you did. Even when God forgave his ‘Stiff neck people’, he still punished them for their sins.

It seems that you are having issues for your faith. I did to when I started to look at going back into the church years ago. Other faiths were easier because they did not have many rules, or they were always forgiving and welcoming. I was told that I did not need a priest to forgive, just God. It is ok to be divorced 3, 4 ,5 times because God forgives all. Just sin away and ask for forgiveness. After all, we are all sinners so its ok to sin. I just need to read the Bible, and pick out my passages that made sense to me (being my own pope). It all made me have that feel good warmth inside. Then I looked around and saw people were given a free pass to sin. Why try to be good if God forgives and forgets all of your sins.

I find that being Catholic is hard. Being just a Christian is easy. I may not like all what the Church as dictated, but I will listen and do my best to obey. The same reasoning that a child might obey his/her parent. A child does not understand why they have to go to school, dress properly, eat properly and so forth. As they get older, they will understand more and more. The same goes for me, as I get older, I understand my faith more and more. I understand why things are the way they are. Keep the faith.

You know I just couldn’t agree with you more, except I don’t know what just being a Chritian means.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I know and your right, I didn’t realize it myself when I first came here, but yes I am discovering how I truely feel, it could be to my ignorance all these years about what really the CC teaches on certain subjects, just having basic cathecism.

It does leave me in kinda a bind now on what to think anymore, and has left me feeling so unsure about my Catholic faith or lack of Catholic faith now,. It has quite turned my whole upside down actually and while I was ready several years ago to get my marriage blessed in the Church

I came here and now I’m really not sure, in no way meaning I do not plan on staying with my husband till death do we part, and if he would divorce me I’m sure I would not remarry, so that is not an issue, ie being free to remarry again is not in my agenda.

So yes you are right, and I will be honest to admit it.

also to be a Catholic they say one must believe and submit to all Catholic dogma and I honor that, I do not take the host except spiritually , but right now I am not ready to recommit by getting my marriage blessed as that would make me a hypocrit and well a liar at this point. Its a dilemma.

I am going to pray for you. We want you in the Church.

 

[Luvtosew]

I am going to pray for you. We want you in the Church.

Thanks dear,I appreciate you saying that, but I was just upset with some of the sad stories here, I mean lets face it, after almost 60 years of being a Catholic (although not as knowledgable as most of yous are) I really don’t know where I’d go, I’d be at a lost.

 

[Gorgias]

Peter was never referred to being a Pope in the Bible

the word Pope was first used somewhere in the middle of the 2nd century.

Luv,

Hmm… I’m not certain that I understand why that’s relevant.

I don’t recall whether you mentioned if you have children or not. If so, then that means that they probably didn’t start calling you “Mama” until they were 10 or 12 months old. Does that mean that, for the first 10 months of their lives, you weren’t their Mom? Does that mean that your authority – as their Mother – isn’t valid, since you weren’t being called “Mom” from the start? Does that mean that, as you grew in your understanding of what it meant to act like a parent, that your authority is invalid because, when you started your parenting days, you had to learn what that role meant and how to do it properly?

 

[Cristiano]

Thanks dear,I appreciate you saying that, but I was just upset with some of the sad stories here, I mean lets face it, after almost 60 years of being a Catholic (although not as knowledgable as most of yous are) I really don’t know where I’d go, I’d be at a lost.

That is exactly what Peter said to Jesus: “Where should we go? You have the words of eternal life, we believe and know that you are Christ the son of God”. Hang in there!

 

[rainbow1]

Thanks dear,I appreciate you saying that, but I was just upset with some of the sad stories here, I mean lets face it, after almost 60 years of being a Catholic (although not as knowledgable as most of yous are) I really don’t know where I’d go, I’d be at a lost.

Yeah, some of the stories are really, really sad. But our Lord always wants to comfort us. I prayed for you in front of the Eucharist this morning in our adoration chapel…will do so again tomorrow…Our Lord loves you so much!

 

[Gorgias]

One more correction on something I said earlier:

One huge difference would be in the effects – an invalid marriage that’s convalidated becomes sacramental back to the time of the original marriage ceremony (not the time of the later convalidation); a non-existent marriage that’s later followed by a valid marriage becomes sacramental at the time of the marriage in Church, not the original attempt at marriage (in this example, at the JP).

The invalid marriage becomes sacramental at the time of convalidation, as does the non-existent marriage that is subsequently celebrated in the Church. If it’s a radical sanation, rather than a convalidation, then that is effective retroactively to the time the marriage ceremony took place.

 

[Gorgias]

Father David recently posted about convalidations. His excellent explanation answered the above.

In your “lack of form” case, the attempted marriage can be convalidated. “Convalidation” has to do with the fact that there is a legally recognized civil marriage in place, and that the couple wishes to regularize there marriage with the Church. Convalidation would not apply if the civil marriage were invalid.

I found the relevant post. See post #8 in the thread below:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8825898

Thanks, Val! I’ll take my question there…

 

[rainbow1]

Check out the utube called “Dog, Cat, and Rat”…