Divorce

[Gorgias]

Oh and all my husband and I need to do is get our marriage blessed, due to ignorance and a technicalitiy. So thats a bit hypocritical isn’t it.

Well, it’s more than just a “blessing”. What makes a marriage a marriage? The Catholic Church says that, for Catholics, it takes consent, a lack of things that would otherwise make marriage impossible, and following the right form.

“Consent” means that each spouse is able to say “yes” to the marriage, and freely does so, at the time that the wedding takes place.

The “lack of things that otherwise make marriage impossible” are things like already being married eek or trying to marry your brother or sister (again, !).

“Following the right form” is an important one, too. The Church says that marriage, when it validly takes place, is a sacrament. That means that it has to have the right “stuff” (which includes a man and a woman, and a representative of the Church to witness that a valid marriage is taking place, and two witnesses) and the right form (the fact that consent is properly exchanged at the time of the wedding, etc).

So, there’s a lot more to a Catholic marriage than a blood test and a marriage license from the state. In fact, while the Church realizes that non-Catholics don’t follow the form of Catholic marriage (and yet, since they’re following what their church or denomination requires, their marriage is valid), it also requires that Catholics who marry follow the requirements of the Church in order to be able to say that they have a “valid, sacramental marriage”.

Would the Church say that you and your husband are married? Well, it certainly wouldn’t say that you two have just been shacking up all this time! But, it would have a hard time saying that you have a marriage in the sense that a couple who went through marriage prep, did all the due diligence that the Church requires, and was married before a priest or deacon, does have a marriage…

I don’t want to come off sounding mean, since I do sympathize with your dilemma.

But, if you told your kids to “go to school”, and they went onto the school property, then turned around and hung out in the mall all day, would you say that they “went to school” in the way that you intended? Even if they did it without intending to do something different than what you had intended, would you still say that they’d “gone to school”?

 

[rainbow1]

Not sure Mary and Joseph did all that…
Also, we don’t, thank goodness, have a machine that we put our social security number into and that of our spouse to see some calculated output about how “good” of a marriage we have based on our preparation…all the preparation in the world may not touch some hearts…
I don’t know what her marriage is like, so I for one am not feeling qualified to judge it against the modern day Catholic marriage…whose divorce rates aren’t so hot either… but she does seem to think her spouse is a loving man… and that they have a good friendship that is lasting…that is more than I accomplished as a cradle Catholic with all sorts of higher education, having been a second grade first Communion teacher at age 20 and a huge proper marriage ceremony…( I am not mocking the holy sacrament of marriage, either)…I’m just sayin’…

“You can catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a barrel of vinegar” Francis de Sales

 

[Luvtosew]

Gorgias,
Because my husband didn’t get a whats it called a dispensation? to get married in his first marriage, the Priest said he doesnt’ need an annullment, and that we would just need to get our marriage blessed at this time, so because he didn’t know he needed a D, whatever it is, we kinda lucked out, which
and then I read other stories here and the good men seemed to be pretty innocent in issues (if they told the truth and why wouldn’t they on this site- I believed them) and well its seems hardly fair, as my husband and I are just as quilty I guess.

So that is all I’m saying here. It bothers these very good men here to be in such a bind as not to be able to receive the Eucharist, and to have their annullment denied.
Now I’m sure the tribunal is fair as good as can be, so apparently something must have been missed here.

I am not complaining about my situation. No your not coming off as mean.
And no my husband is not my brother

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Luv, the thing is, what happens during a marriage (such as adultery etc.) does not in itself have a bearing on the validity of a marriage.

Granted a person who commits adultery may have done so because he or she never planned to give full consent to marriage for life. They may not have had a correct understanding. We don’t know. And we aren’t canon lawyers who have undergone years of training in the subject.

What does have a bearing on the validity of a marriage is the state of the two spouses at the time of the vows. Either they were capable of full and free consent and a reasonable standard of understanding of the nature of marriage . . .or they were not.

If they were indeed capable and to the best of their knowledge and understanding and to the best of all understanding based on the testimony of themselves and witnesses it can be demonstrated that they did indeed freely and fully consent, then the marriage itself is valid no matter what happens ‘later’.

Because it is for better or worse. It is very tragic when it is for worse. . .when the spouse who never drank, for example, gradually starts to drink, maybe for years drinks socially with absolutely no problem, and then little by little sinks into alcoholism. Just the fact that he or she becomes alcoholic however does not mean that he or she was such a personality ‘at the start of the marriage’, or that he or she should have somehow guessed that alcoholism would become a problem, and thus the marriage is invalid because the other spouse would not have chosen to marry an alcoholic.

IF on the other hand the person had already had problems drinking before the marriage, and deliberately concealed those problems because the spouse to be had said they could never marry somebody with a drinking problem, then one could argue the marriage was not valid because all the information that SHOULD have been made known was deliberately hidden.

But if the person never knew he might have a problem drinking, then the marriage probably was valid because there was nothing ‘hidden’ from the spouse.

It is very hard to know for sure (especially when we are only hearing from one side, and that in a difficult situation and only what the person himself understands, and indeed in some ways has not accurately understood about other things) whether a given marriage situation is valid or not, and that is why we have tribunals and people with the kind of specialized knowledge and expertise and time and facilities to do that kind of research.

 

[Luvtosew]

Tantum ergo,

Ok I’m getting it, the most important thing is the time of getting married, the state of both people, no hidding anything, consenting adults, etc,

what happens that caused the divorce is not important or taken in consideration. So the OP adulteress wife had no bearing on his annullment. Ok thats a tough one to swallow , yes.

I guess he has to do whats best for his life now then, probably no use to appeal.

Thanks for being so patient with me, but one has to admit this is very confusing, and I sure hope they stess this 50 times before letting anyone get married in the Church, meaning make sure they completely understand. But I do believe most people who get married do honestly believe its for life, but unfortuatnely its not always that way.

 

[SMHW]

Thanks for being so patient with me, but one has to admit this is very confusing, and I sure hope they stess this 50 times before letting anyone get married in the Church, meaning make sure they completely understand. But I do believe most people who get married do honestly believe its for life, but unfortuatnely its not always that way.

It is sad that ALL people, Christian or otherwise, don’t understand marriage the way we Catholics do.

Catholic marriage preparation is supposed to explain this to those who do marry according to the laws of the Church. Unfortunately that is too late for many Catholics; they don’t receive the marriage instruction that they ideally should be getting in their teen years and they end up attempting marriage outside of the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

No the Catholic Church is not the way I know Jesus is our high Priest,

Luv, the ONLY way you know that Jesus is our high priest is because the Catholic Church saw fit to put that into the Bible.

That’s the ONLY way.

You would not know it any other way except to thank the Church for preserving the words of God for you.

they say the Pope is.

Well, it’s true that the Pope is a priest, and that he’s a bishop, and that he’s the vicar of Christ.

But as for Pope B16 being THE high priest, you’ll have to provide some Church document that says this, Luv.

Please cite your source. Thanks.

 

[Luvtosew]

Read the book of Hebrews is all I can say.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo,

Ok I’m getting it, the most important thing is the time of getting married, the state of both people, no hidding anything, consenting adults, etc,

what happens that caused the divorce is not important or taken in consideration. So the OP adulteress wife had no bearing on his annullment. Ok thats a tough one to swallow , yes.

I guess he has to do whats best for his life now then, probably no use to appeal.

Thanks for being so patient with me, but one has to admit this is very confusing, and I sure hope they stess this 50 times before letting anyone get married in the Church, meaning make sure they completely understand. But I do believe most people who get married do honestly believe its for life, but unfortuatnely its not always that way.

If what happened during the marriage is directly related to the state of the spouse(s) prior to or at the time of the marriage, it is taken into consideration because, as I gave in the drinking example, if one spouse had a history of cheating and covered it up, or always thought he/she could ‘get out of the marriage whenever’ even if repeatedly told they could not, then it would be an indication that even from the start the person doing the wrong was either covering up (so the other spouse lacked full knowledge and thus couldn’t give full consent), or was indicating a serious problem that if the other spouse had realized they would not have married him/her, because the cheating spouse was showing that HE could not fully and freely commit to marriage.

BUT if something comes up that was not directly related to the person’s life, experience, character, etc. prior to or before the wedding, then it probably does not have that kind of impact, even if it is a devasting thing to experience.

A person could live for 20, 30, 40 years perhaps and never even THINK about the idea of divorce, could love his or her spouse devotedly, and then have a mid life crisis, see a ‘new person’, and then suddenly years of devotion and love go out the window. . .they never dreamed that THEY could feel that way, they simply MUST have ‘love’, blah blah.

Because the actions appear the same (spouse leaves for another person) it is hard to imagine that the psychology is radically different and that ‘just because’ a person had the tendency and the intent to do a wrong before they married is a valid argument for a decree of nullity, whereas something that had never been intended and was completely ‘out of the blue’ would most likely NOT be. I know it’s hard to understand especially when you’re the person being hit with the wrong action and I agree, it is something that needs to be made clear. . .but I think part of the problem isn’t that the Church doesn’t make it that clear (I can in fact remember the discussion from my pre-Cana classes), it really is that there has been almost a kind of conspiracy in every aspect of societal living that has contributed to a lack of understanding that would have been almost unbelieveable in my grandparent’s time. No matter how often the priest and the couples and the teachers etc. try to make it crystal clear, people are seeing everything from an abundance of decrees being given (for a variety of mostly good reasons) to a ‘push’ from society on every level to make it look as though marriage is something that is ONLY about the satisfaction of physical love and only as long as one spouse considers he or she is ‘fulfilled’ and that when the ‘love’ goes, the person should be ‘free’ to pursue the NEXT love because otherwise he/she is being persecuted and hurt etc. And because the Church is fighting against the ‘wisdom’ of society and some of its members have been ruddy stupid gits in many other areas, people are equating ‘stupid’ with ‘Church’, then applying ‘stupid’ to anything the Church teaches that goes against society’s great ‘wisdom’, and just arguing arguing arguing until it’s amazing people can get out any coherent thought whatsoever. . .

God bless ANYBODY who is even trying to understand and appreciate marriage and religion these days, because I believe that only when people do start to truly understand and go back to or embrace the fullness of teaching, will we start to see the kind of benefit to all people that real marriage, done in understanding and true love, seen as a contractual union of one man and one woman offering themselves to each other and in union with their loving Creator, for the purpose of uniation and procreation, will be.

 

[PRmerger]

also to be a Catholic they say one must believe and submit to all Catholic dogma and I honor that,** I do not take the host except spiritually** ,

You are a noble, virtuous woman, Luv. God bless you for your integrity and honesty.

I pray that some day you will indeed be able to take the Eucharist physically, and become One Flesh with Christ–the most intimate union and sublime gift this side of heaven!

 

[PRmerger]

Read the book of Hebrews is all I can say.

Right.

And who decided that the book of Hebrews was from God?

The Catholic Church!

You would not know it any other way.

 

[faerie114]

I guess he has to do whats best for his life now then, probably no use to appeal.

Thanks for being so patient with me, but one has to admit this is very confusing, and I sure hope they stess this 50 times before letting anyone get married in the Church, meaning make sure they completely understand. But I do believe most people who get married do honestly believe its for life, but unfortuatnely its not always that way.

I think he can still appeal, but he shouldn’t use the ‘adultery after marriage’ as his reason for the annullment. It has to be something that was already there even before they married. I think this is why annullments take years, you need to think back to the time before you said ‘I do’ at the altar and find ‘fault’ in their behavior/personality from there. (sorry I use quotes on fault, can’t find a better word for it).

As for consent of marriage being stresses 50 times over, I think this is why we are required to attend Pre-Cana seminar before exchanging wedding vows. The seminar really lay it out for you what you can/will expect in the marriage, and what you can/will expect/get from the Church. At that time, my husband and I thought being married in the Church is just for me to fulfill my Catholic obligations (he’s not Christian), but we were wrong. It ‘opened’ our eyes to what the true meaning of ‘consent’ was; and it’s not just about being free to say ‘I do’. It was really enlightening for both of us, and I thank God everyday that even though we both attended the seminar just for ‘ticking the box’ in the list of things to do, we came out of it with a new understanding of what a Catholic marriage is. When you say ‘for better or worse’, you really need to mean “FOR WORSE”.

This was the advise given to me by a very smart woman a month before I walked down the aisle: You don’t need to prepare for your wedding, you need to prepare for your marriage.

I hope I helped. I will keep you all in my prayers …

Big hug to everyone…:grouphug:

 

[rainbow1]

Big hug to all too!

 

[rainbow1]

Big hug to all too!

Sort of hating to break up the group hug …lol!
This morning I was listening to an interesting podcast …that looks at marriage from a somewhat different , but very interesting, perspective… it is done by Presbyterian professor and pastor who is a friend of mine…
You can find it by googling, “Is it really love? Spiritual Way of the Six Loves”…
I am trying to think about this podcast in terms of how he assesses what is necessary for him to feel comfortable to celebrate a marriage in his faith in comparison to what the Church looks at when reviewing a marriage for an annulment…

 

[PRmerger]

Not sure Mary and Joseph did all that…

But when the Church declared that we must do that, then we must do that.

 

[rainbow1]

But when the Church declared that we must do that, then we must do that.

Oh, I didn’t mean to sound like I don’t think people should follow the premarriage training recommendations! I just was cringing at the thread for starting to take a turn towards the idea that a Catholic marriage is necessarily a “better” marriage than a non-Catholic one, just because of the title and not to do with the actual relationship. I think we have to be careful saying a “Catholic” is better than a protestant …or that a particular Catholic is better than another Catholic…and it sounded to me that we might be heading down that road again… I love our Church and know it holds Truth…but I’m just saying I believe we need to be careful setting ourselves as individuals on any pedestal. Our protestant brothers and sisters in Christ are also His beloved children…even if they don’t have their marriages in our Church…
But to clarify…I sure do hope my children get married in the CC , that they have beautiful sacramental marriages, and I sure do hope they get that training and more!!! In fact, I hope I have already done a very good job starting it years and years ago…and that I send them to the training already well trained…

 

[rainbow1]

Sort of hating to break up the group hug …lol!
This morning I was listening to an interesting podcast …that looks at marriage from a somewhat different , but very interesting, perspective… it is done by Presbyterian professor and pastor who is a friend of mine…
You can find it by googling, “Is it really love? Spiritual Way of the Six Loves”…
I am trying to think about this podcast in terms of how he assesses what is necessary for him to feel comfortable to celebrate a marriage in his faith in comparison to what the Church looks at when reviewing a marriage for an annulment…

Sorry…I meant to add that it is episode #36…there are alot of podcasts…
Makes me wonder about marriages in our Church whose marriage would be classified as null at the time of the marriage, and yet grew over time…and then if some trauma happens and one spouse leaves then they could get an annulment, when actually the marriage had changed form over time…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The Catholic Church’s view of marriage is as hard to fulfill as her view of sexual intimacy.

No ifs, ands, or buts - God asks nothing less of us. But being the weak vessels that we are, we try to find the loopholes and skirt around those commandments every which way.

“But what if we…?”
“I didn’t realize that…”
“Even if…?”

Yes, even if. Even if it hurts. Even if it’s hard. Even if we don’t know HOW we are going to be able to obey. We still obey.

My husband and I married civilly. We are both baptized Catholics, so that marriage wasn’t valid. 12 years ago, we got married in the Church. We were doing the pre-Cana test about interests, viewpoints, etc. and our test results came out so diametrically opposed that DH still reminds me that we aren’t compatible at all.

Yet, something held us together for the 10 years before we married in the Church, and something still binds us together, it will be 23 years in May. The Holy Spirit is working, and I pray that some day, my husband will return to the Church with his whole heart.

I think any youth group needs to tackle both of these subjects head-on. I was totally lapsed so I would not have gotten that teaching in any case, but we could do better. So many people seem to think the marriage consists entirely of the wedding day and honeymoon and don’t have any idea how very difficult true commitment is.

 

[kbachler]

We were doing the pre-Cana test about interests, viewpoints, etc. and our test results came out so diametrically opposed that DH still reminds me that we aren’t compatible at all.

Maybe ya’ both like a good challenge…

 

[Luvtosew]

**This was the advise given to me by a very smart woman a month before I walked down the aisle: You don’t need to prepare for your wedding, you need to prepare for your marriage/B

Smart lady, us older women probably think that all the time when we see young people getting married, that its easy to get married, hard work to stay married.

Rainbow- smart pastor, people do change with passage of time, hopefully for the better and not for the worst, no one stays the same. Thanks for the link.

The Real Juliane- well something kept yous together, and still is, so you can’t be all that
incompatible, I hope your husband goes back to Church full force. One never knows.
One always hears opposites attract, that maybe true, do they stay together I don’t know, yous did.

I think its a lot of give and take, its never always 50/50. In some marriages tho one person is more giving that the other, more easy going.

I have no idea what the pre marriage counceling is in the CC, Who teaches it? A Priest? or lay people?

I have read a lot depends on Parents, if ones parents have been divorced or not, and the parents view on marriage, but reading a few posts on the board here, I don’t know if that is true.

I do think a long dating period is helpful. Some people are spoiled too, they think life is suppose to be a bed of roses, well we all know thats not true.**