Divorce

[Gorgias]

I have no idea what the pre marriage counceling is in the CC, Who teaches it? A Priest? or lay people?

It varies, depending on the diocese, or even the parish! The ones I’ve seen that are the most helpful and successful, are the ones that are led by couples who have been married for quite a while, have a lot of success (and failures) under their belt, and who talk about not only Church “requirements” but real-life experiences…

 

[Gorgias]

Not sure Mary and Joseph did all that…

They didn’t, of course, but that train of thought presents two distinct problems…

First, Christian marriage is different than non-Christian marriage (or, in the case of Mary and Joseph, “pre-Christian” marriage!).

Second, as Catholics, we don’t presume that we have to do things exactly the way that the early Church did them in the very beginning. We look to the early Church, and at times it provides guidance, but at other times we value the ways in which we, as the People of God, have come to learn more about God and about God’s will for us in the world.

We can’t use the measuring stick of “how did they do it in the 1st century AD?” too rigorously – or else we’d have to hold onto slavery, the complete prevention of women taking on roles of ministerial leadership and participation in the Church, one-on-one confession, and a host of other practices.

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

First of all my heart goes out to you. All I know is that what has happened to you could happen to me, especially since I was divorced 4 years ago and have not yet filed for an annulment.

Second, I find the reliance on the advice of a priest very troubling. I suppose the priest should not have been so casual in his advice and maybe he should have said, get an annulment. I have never heard of anyone getting an annulment prior to getting a divorce decree but I suppose that the two tracks could be pursued simultaneously.

Third, I think that you should forum shop. It is somewhat improper in court proceedings but I am not aware of it being improper in the Church.

Fourth, it seems that many of Jobs’ friends have found their way to this forum. So you have lots of blessings to look forward to although I can tell you are currently in a lot of pain.

I will pray for you and your family. Peace, g.

 

[rainbow1]

They didn’t, of course, but that train of thought presents two distinct problems…

First, Christian marriage is different than non-Christian marriage (or, in the case of Mary and Joseph, “pre-Christian” marriage!).

Second, as Catholics, we don’t presume that we have to do things exactly the way that the early Church did them in the very beginning. We look to the early Church, and at times it provides guidance, but at other times we value the ways in which we, as the People of God, have come to learn more about God and about God’s will for us in the world.

We can’t use the measuring stick of “how did they do it in the 1st century AD?” too rigorously – or else we’d have to hold onto slavery, the complete prevention of women taking on roles of ministerial leadership and participation in the Church, one-on-one confession, and a host of other practices.

Yeah, I further explained what I was saying in post # 376…I was just saying we have to be careful not to judge some marriages as “less married” than others…my understanding is that two protestants who married can be just as married as two Catholics…

 

[joanofarc2008]

I have never heard of anyone getting an annulment prior to getting a divorce decree but I suppose that the two tracks could be pursued simultaneously.

The tribunal requires the parties be divorced prior to the decree of nullity being pursued.

 

[rainbow1]

First of all my heart goes out to you. All I know is that what has happened to you could happen to me, especially since I was divorced 4 years ago and have not yet filed for an annulment.

Second, I find the reliance on the advice of a priest very troubling. I suppose the priest should not have been so casual in his advice and maybe he should have said, get an annulment. I have never heard of anyone getting an annulment prior to getting a divorce decree but I suppose that the two tracks could be pursued simultaneously.

Third, I think that you should forum shop. It is somewhat improper in court proceedings but I am not aware of it being improper in the Church.

Fourth, it seems that many of Jobs’ friends have found their way to this forum. So you have lots of blessings to look forward to although I can tell you are currently in a lot of pain.

I will pray for you and your family. Peace, g.

At least in my state you can’t find out if your marriage is null until a civil divorce…seems sort of backwards…

 

[PRmerger]

Oh, I didn’t mean to sound like I don’t think people should follow the premarriage training recommendations!

I think we have to be careful saying a “Catholic” is better than protestant…or that a particular Catholic is better than another Catholic…

Those, indeed, are obnoxious statements.

However, do you cringe if you hear a Catholic state that Catholicism has the fullness of Truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Makes me wonder about marriages in our Church whose marriage would be classified as null at the time of the marriage, and yet grew over time…and then if some trauma happens and one spouse leaves then they could get an annulment, when actually the marriage had changed form over time…

Think of it this way, rainbow:

I have heard Fr. Vincent Serpa (chaplain at Catholic Answers) say (paraphrasing): if we could look into the soul of the newly baptized to see what occurs during the Sacrament of Baptism, nuclear fission would appear as child’s play,

An indelible mark is placed on this soul, never to be removed. That is, the universe is changed forever!

Similarly, at the confection of the Sacrament of Marriage, if we could look into the soul of the newly married, what occurs would make nuclear fission appear as child’s play.

What existed 30 seconds prior to the conferring of the Sacrament, exists no more.

A new entity exists–a couple joined indelibly at their souls, becoming ONE.

How amazingly sublime is that???

So, try to think of an annulment this way: a relationship that has been declared “null” by a marriage tribunal has been declared to never have had that sacramental (here, read “metaphysical”) change to their souls at the moment of the attempted conferral of the sacrament.

And so, to bring it back to your post above, if there were a couple whose relationship was declared null, but “grew over time”, still, sadly, they would not have a sacramental marriage. For this nuclear-fission like change to their souls never occurred at the time of their wedding.

 

[PRmerger]

Think of it this way, rainbow:

I have heard Fr. Vincent Serpa (chaplain at Catholic Answers) say (paraphrasing): if we could look into the soul of the newly baptized to see what occurs during the Sacrament of Baptism, nuclear fission would appear as child’s play,

An indelible mark is placed on this soul, never to be removed. That is, the universe is changed forever!

Similarly, at the confection of the Sacrament of Marriage, if we could look into the soul of the newly married, what occurs would make nuclear fission appear as child’s play.

What existed 30 seconds prior to the conferring of the Sacrament, exists no more.

A new entity exists–a couple joined indelibly at their souls, becoming ONE.

How amazingly sublime is that???

So, try to think of an annulment this way: a relationship that has been declared “null” by a marriage tribunal has been declared to never have had that sacramental (here, read “metaphysical”) change to their souls at the moment of the attempted conferral of the sacrament.

And so, to bring it back to your post above, if there were a couple whose relationship was declared null, but “grew over time”, still, sadly, they would not have a sacramental marriage. For this nuclear-fission like change to their souls never occurred at the time of their wedding.

And just to follow up on the above, let’s say someone believes he was baptized. He has lived his entire life believing that he was baptized as an infant.

But let’s say he wants to make sure. So he does some investigating and finds out that the priest who baptized him didn’t baptize him with water, but used Pepsi instead.

Sadly, this man would learn that he was, indeed, never baptized. That indelible mark on his soul, that metaphysical change to the universe, never occurred. He was not baptized, even if he lived 45 years believing that he was, attending Mass, living his life as a dutiful Catholic.

That may be the same parallel with a couple who, after doing some investigating, find out that they were never really married. They may have lived 45 years together believing that they were…but, sadly, it turns out, they never had that metaphysical, sacramental change to their souls that changes the universe forever called the Sacrament of Marriage.

 

[Luvtosew]

And so, to bring it back to your post above, if there were a couple whose relationship was declared null, but “grew over time”, still, sadly, they would not have a sacramental marriage. For this nuclear-fission like change to their souls never occurred at the time of their wedding.

Lost me there!!

 

[PRmerger]

And so, to bring it back to your post above, if there were a couple whose relationship was declared null, but “grew over time”, still, sadly, they would not have a sacramental marriage. For this nuclear-fission like change to their souls never occurred at the time of their wedding.

Lost me there!!

What part lost you, Luv?

At the time of their exchange of vows, nothing sacramental (“metaphysical”) occurred. So even if they grow close together in their relationship, they never had a sacramental change to their souls.

 

[Luvtosew]

How does one know that. Are you talking if they didn’t get married by a Priest?

 

[PRmerger]

How does one know that. Are you talking if they didn’t get married by a Priest?

How does one know if no sacramental marriage existed?

Luv, that’s what we’ve been discussing this entire time, right? A couple who wants to know this needs to present their case to a marriage tribunal who will review every aspect of the case and discern this.

That’s how we know that.

 

[Luvtosew]

they never had a sacramental change to their souls

ha ha , sorry, this is what I’m talking about, how in the world do we know what happened to their soul.

I guess what I’m asking is are you talking that if a couple doesn’t get married by a Priest that they are not sacrsmentally married, if so yes I agree with that.

 

[rainbow1]

In other words, if a couple got married when they are 19 years old, and really had no clue what they are doing, didnt understand the commitment they made, didn’t understand the idea of being faithful to one another because they have never seen a family operate that way, had no idea of being open to children and used bc, did not get church training because they were born in the 50s, but decided that they would get married in the Catholic Church because that is what everyone did… and then somehow in their 30s met a devout Catholic couple who mentored them, and a priest who taught them lots, got involved in the Catholic Church, had a few kids that they raised in the Church, started going to adoration, and then became devout Catholics, and started leading marital training programs because they found such love in their marriage…this couple would not be married …five years later at the age of 60, the man could lose his job, he could go into a depression, forget he ever loved his wife, file for civil divorce , go to the Church and tell the details on the early marriage, have no questions asked about the later years, and then easily be handed an annulment and the wife would be told the marriage never existed. The husband would feel he suffered greatly all those years in a non marriage because he truly was depressed and that is how depression affects people, and then get remarried in the Church. One day he would then get himself undepressed due to some antidepressant, and then wake up and realize that he did love his first wife, but voila, he now has two wives… no, just one wife…the one he was married to when he was depressed, but then that could be annuled too, because after all , he did not know what he was doing while he was depressed…so, looks like he is in sad shape with no wives at all!

 

[PRmerger]

they never had a sacramental change to their souls

ha ha , sorry, this is what I’m talking about, how in the world do we know what happened to their soul.

Well, Luv, it’s a way of expressing what the Church means by “sacramental”. I’m trying to put it into a picture so it’s more understandable.

We’re talking ontological change here that’s conferred with sacraments. It occurs at Priestly Ordination also (at the moment of Ordination what existed 30 seconds prior exists no more. The man is changed, ontologically, forever, at the essence (core/soul) of his very being!)

See? The Church is nothing if not consistent!

I guess what I’m asking is are you talking that if a couple doesn’t get married by a Priest that they are not sacrsmentally married, if so yes I agree with that.

Yes, if a Catholic couple does not get married by a priest they are not sacramentally married.

 

[rainbow1]

Well, Luv, it’s a way of expressing what the Church means by “sacramental”. I’m trying to put it into a picture so it’s more understandable.

We’re talking ontological change here that’s conferred with sacraments. It occurs at Priestly Ordination also (at the moment of Ordination what existed 30 seconds prior exists no more. The man is changed, ontologically, forever, at the essence (core/soul) of his very being!)

See? The Church is nothing if not consistent!

Yes, if a Catholic couple does not get married by a priest they are not sacramentally married.

Are you sure a priest is required? I read on a Catholic website today that what Catholics don’t realize is that a priest is not always required because it is between the couple and God…

 

[Luvtosew]

Wow, that poor man!!

so cluelessness and depression are two ways to get an annullment.

 

[PRmerger]

In other words, if a couple got married when they are 19 years old, and really had no clue what they are doing, didnt understand the commitment they made, didn’t understand the idea of being faithful to one another because they have never seen a family operate that way, had no idea of being open to children and used bc, did not get church training because they were born in the 50s, but decided that they would get married in the Catholic Church because that is what everyone did… and then somehow in their 30s met a devout Catholic couple who mentored them, and a priest who taught them lots, got involved in the Catholic Church, had a few kids that they raised in the Church, started going to adoration, and then became devout Catholics, and started leading marital training programs because they found such love in their marriage…this couple would not be married …five years later at the age of 60, the man could lose his job, he could go into a depression, forget he ever loved his wife, file for civil divorce , go to the Church and tell the details on the early marriage, have no questions asked about the later years, and then easily be handed an annulment and the wife would be told -]the marriage never existed. /-] a SACRAMENTAL marriage never existed. The husband would feel he suffered greatly all those years in a non marriage because he truly was depressed and that is how depression affects people, and then get remarried in the Church. One day he would then get himself undepressed due to some antidepressant, and then wake up and realize that he did love his first wife, but voila, he now has two wives… no, just one wife…the one he was married to when he was depressed, but then that could be annuled too, because after all , he did not know what he was doing while he was depressed…so, looks like he is in sad shape with no wives at all!

I amended your comment above.

 

[PRmerger]

Wow, that poor man!!

so cluelessness and depression are two ways to get an annullment.

Indeed.

How wise the Church is, no?

Do you really want clueless men going into the sacrament?

And no depressed person ought to be making such a serious commitment, right?

Would you want a clueless man becoming ordained to become your parish priest???

Or a depressed man becoming ordained at the peak of his despondency, not knowing at all what he was undertaking?