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Luvtosew
Guest
No, but I’m not feeling bad for the man, well I’m feeling bad for the wives, but I’m glad they could be rid of him.
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rainbow1
Guest
Do you think this is wise of the Church?
The man lived about 30 years in a marriage in a very healthy Catholic lifestyle not knowing that he was not in a valid marriage. He should be able to get an annulment during a depressive episode? Really? I doubt his wife would think so…I would think she would expect a tribunal to stand behind her and her children and tell the man he was married to her…the bulk of the marriage he had been living as if in a valid marriage.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
A few points. . .your original opening does not ensure the couple were not sacramentally married but only that they MIGHT not have been sacramentally married. After all, even at 19, they might have had the usual adolescent tunnel vision but have been perfectly adequately catecized by parents and teachers. This is especially probable in that they later come ‘on fire’. . .in which case if they DID harbor any doubt about their capacity to marry they would probably have renewed their vows. . .
The wife doesn’t get ‘handed stuff’. Both would have participated. Are you saying that both of them went in unprepared but it’s only the husband’s POV that gets seen?
Also just because the state of mind at the vows is what determines validity doesn’t mean that later years are NOT taken into account, so your premise that the later years aren’t even looked at is wrong.
And even with a decree of nullity. . .and a confession of depression. . .doesn’t mean hubby can go off and remarry in the church. If he was not ‘ready’ at the time of the marriage despite having become ‘thoroughly Catholic’ later in life PLUS getting depression, it is very likely that IF the Tribunal found his marriage not valid (and that is an if, not a guarantee), it would have recommended that he pursue specific steps before he attempts another marriage. Having been wrong ‘once’, they would be extremely careful to ensure that he was thoroughly ‘ready’ for a second marriage.
Much more likely that even though the couple originally was not OPTIMALLY prepared at the time of the marriage that there was enough catechesis from parents and teachers and enough effort afterward that they really WERE validly married.
Remember, we are holding people not to some impossible standard of perfection. The AVERAGE 19 year old (who went through Pre-Cana and presumably was practing the Catholic faith) is probably not going to be 100% ‘aware’ of marriage responsibilities or even 100% ‘sure’ he or she is ready to be married til death. . .because we are not 100% ANYTHING at any given point, really. Perfectly aware? Not likely. But aware enough to function as much as the ‘average’ Catholic person. . .very probable.
The immaturity and lack of consent are actually pretty difficult. We all mature at different rates so one would have to be MARKEDLY different from the usual 19 year old "I’m old enough to vote and drive and I can do ANYTHING’ maturING person. This would have to be somebody who is more at a mental age of 10, thinking, “I’ve just gotta be married before my roommate to prove I’m better than she is, and everybody will think I’m the hottest bride in the world OMG, I’m gonna have the biggest wedding EVER” immaturity with not just, “I’m not sure but I hope I’ll be a good husband/wife”, but it’s all ‘me me me’.
No worries. The tribunal is very thorough. If you’ve filled out the paperwork you know it isn’t just your whole youth and family life up through the vows, it’s also what happens after. They get a really good sense of who you are now, who you were then, and what you ‘did’ and do. They don’t just let ‘anybody’ say, "Oh I just wasn’t ready then, but I am now with new guy/girl’, or “he or she just is a horrible person even though I was a perfect saint”. They’re very upfront not just about where you went ‘wrong’ but where you went ‘right’ as well.
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rainbow1
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My understanding is that the annulment is determined based on what happened prior to and at the time of the marriage…not later…either it happened or it didn’t…
So if people want their marriages looked at as valid by the Church and have the chance of annulment minimized, then they better keep going and having their vows said again later in life…nobody recommended that to me or any of my friends…unless they want rid of their spouse…
So if people want their marriages looked at as valid by the Church and have the chance of annulment minimized, then they better keep going and having their vows said again later in life…nobody recommended that to me or any of my friends…unless they want rid of their spouse…
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rainbow1
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I love your sense of humor…just about spit out my coffee on that one!
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, either it happened or it didn’t, but your scenario was over the top in a few places and ignored the fact that what happened at the marriage vows might manifest itself in the marriage. . .or might not.
A selfish, immature person might be able to hide his or her immaturity and selfishness for a few months of courtship and up to the marriage, and even for a couple of years. . .but then during the marriage, the selfishness and immaturity start to come through as the person stops ‘acting’ and lets his or her true nature (the nature and truth which had always been part of the person but hidden and covered up briefly) shine through.
If you only looked at the events of the courtship and marriage without knowing the person’s nature before --and after–the courtship and marriage it could APPEAR that the person was sincere and genuinely capable of full and free consent and was perfectly normal at the time.
But if you look at the events of the person’s early life and saw that they were bone-lazy and selfish, treating their parents with disdain, demanding, even stealing what they thought ‘entitled to’. . .and then seemed to ‘change’ and become nice, something that COULD theoretically happen from maturity and change of character. . .but then after the marriage you saw their old ways come out, and you saw that events earlier in life showed the person pulling the same kind of ‘hiding behavior’ in order to get what she wanted. . .you could have a case that the person’s true character was hidden from the spouse at the time of the marriage, the true character is out now later in the marriage, and thus the spouse had been deceived.
Again, this would be a person with a serious, serious psychological character flaw.
Here’s something different. Suppose that I’m a perfectly nice normal person in every way but I really love cute shoes. The man I love is not into fashion at all and so to please him I only wear a couple of pairs of shoes and not the pointy ones I really adore.
Later after we’re married, I buy a pair of pointy shoes. Did I DECEIVE my spouse who didn’t realize I wore pointy shoes? No. Provided I’m not Imelda Marcos and don’t demand new pointy shoes every day, there is nothing wrong with my having ‘toned down’ items of my wardrobe in order to ‘fit in’ with my spouse. (plus HE might suddenly start wearing Hawaian shirts on a regular basis.)
There is a difference between hiding major character flaws and trying to present your ‘best side’. If you’re a normal person, you’re going to have a few flaws (we all do), but you’re not going to present yourself as a completely different person in a major way because you know that if you don’t, the person you ‘love’ would not consider marrying you.
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rainbow1
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But people without major personality flaws do get annulments…if they didn’t understand what they were actually signing up for…and people do actually change and grow…in some cases alot… in this scenario, the husband and wife presumably did not have major character flaws…that would be a different case…this is just a couple…very similar to many of us oldies who had very little marriage prep through the church in the 80s…so different than today…and we were those hippies…and we did grow lots and lots and now are the traditional catholics…but unfortunately …well, better not go down that road…but the growth later on is not part of the calculation…the calculation is did that sacrament actually take place and make a valid marriage or did it not? Doesn’t matter that that husband in the scenario changed 3000 diapers of six kids after they stopped using BC…
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PRmerger
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I am not sure how this scenario is an indictment against the Catholic Church, as you intended it to be.
Let’s say there’s no such thing as Jesus’ teaching on divorce and re-marriage being adultery, and that there’s no such thing as the Catholic Church.
This scenario would then be different, how?
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PRmerger
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A priest is not required to have a sacramental marriage ceremony for Catholics?
Could you please provide the source?
Now, while it is true that in the Catholic Church (as opposed to the Orthodox) the priest acts as witness, and that it is the couple themselves that confer the sacrament, I don’t think that equates to a priest (or a deacon) is “not always required”.
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PRmerger
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Indeed!
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PRmerger
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Not sure what you’re asking here?
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EvelynEVF
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rainbow1, your scenario makes it sound like the lousy husband could just go file for investigation and expect a positive decree. In some dioceses, maybe. In my diocese, this is far from the truth. When the respondent spouse contests, even when that involves refusing to release psychiatric records that the petitioner and several witnesses testify exist, you get three judges instead of one, and at the two year point they are still asking for additional testimony.
I have yet to meet a person in real life who actually got one of these easy decrees handed out “like candy.” Why on earth would so many divorced Catholics leave the Church if it were no big deal? In my experience, it is not uncommon for a divorced woman to read through the initial questionnaire, burst into tears, cry off-and-on for several days, and then put the papers in a drawer for months.
I have yet to meet a person in real life who actually got one of these easy decrees handed out “like candy.” Why on earth would so many divorced Catholics leave the Church if it were no big deal? In my experience, it is not uncommon for a divorced woman to read through the initial questionnaire, burst into tears, cry off-and-on for several days, and then put the papers in a drawer for months.
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rainbow1
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I am surely NOT making an indictment against the Catholic Church. I am just trying to understand if 80% of divorced Catholics are leaving the Church that perhaps there needs to be reform in the annulment process. I have not personally been through this process and that is why I am consistently asking for people who have been through it to give their (name removed by moderator)ut. Also, I understand that on this forum, it is unlikely to often run into someone who left the Church, but on this thread we were fortunate enough to have had the OP here until I am guessing he left.
I asked about the wisdom of this piece of the annulment process…which the Church is upholding at the current time. The Church historically does make reform in how she approaches things. That is not to say that we do not cherish or love the Church just because we ask if certain actions are wise or not wise. In fact , open communication often suggests that we do care deeply and are interested in helping the Church to grow and keep Her members.
I am seeing alot of judgement on this thread that I believe to be unhelpful.
I would like to clarify that in no way did I mean that the OP was in any way similar to the hypothetical person that I described a scenario of. In fact, it is likely the opposite. The OP did search out the help of more than one priest and did prayerfully consider his decision. I would also like to clarify I am not against having an annulment process…I believe “rebirth” is a very important part of our faith.
As a Catholic, I feel it is very important to evangelize to those that are going through difficulties in their lives and to advocate for them. When I hear a statistic of a large number of my fellow parishioners feeling the need to leave the Church, then it makes me wonder about their scenarios and how they would have felt. It is not likely that this large of a group is leaving due to a lack of devoutness on their behalf. In fact, if anything the OP clearly stated how his family is a Bible reading family that cares very much about whether or not he recieves the Eucharist and how he has been treated. The OP went into large detail of his emotional pain.
Historically, the Church has made reform in the way it has approached many things, and for a layperson to want to participate in the Church’s growth in the annulment process is far from heresy. In fact, I believe it to be a responsibility of its lay people. A large number of people opt to leave the Church, and I do not hold this against them, but for myself, I plan to stay, and try to advocate for the souls who need it. FCGeorge, I am with you on that wish for soul-saving, although we are approaching it from different angles.
I continue to believe at this point, that something is missing in the annulment process if a scenarios like I mentionned with the “clueless man” and the “abused Catholic” can happen. These scenarios are fictional, but are made up of snippits of what I am hearing from various threads. I am hoping to find more snippets…but it is not in order to hurt the Church, it is to help the Church which I love so dearly.
I am challenging people from taking a comfortable stance in the “being right” position to opening their hearts to hearing the pain of their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ if they are not already.
I am wondering if any of you have pm’d the OP to see if he is doing ok and to see if he felt offended by the discourse here…and have you reached out to him on a personal level?
Is there a special task force in the Church that investigates the experiences of Catholics who are thinking of the annulment process, who are in the middle of it, those who finished it and those who left the Church discouraged? How do lay people get involved in it? Are any of our thread posters/readers involved in this type of task force?
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PRmerger
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While I find it heartbreaking that anyone leaves the Catholic Church, esp. over a tragedy like a divorce, I think it speaks more about the* Catholic *rather than the annulment process.
Leaving the Church because you want to be re-married smacks of creating a god in your own image, rather than conforming yourself to Christ’s. You don’t like what Christ said said so you go and find a church that says what you want Christ to have said.
It reminds me of a co-worker who proudly talked about her mom taking her and her siblings to lots of different churches on Sundays, trying to find a church that the mom “liked”.
Isn’t that exactly backwards?
Shouldn’t you conform yourself to God, rather than finding a god that’s exactly how you “like” him to be?
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PRmerger
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Ironically, the above seems to be quite judgmental itself, no?
Which is especially egregious in light of the fact that you see “judgement” as being a bad thing.
I happen to believe that we are commanded to judge. But of course, to judge with “right judgement”. (See John 7:24)
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Luvtosew
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I think were actually going by a Church dogma here. If the Church would rather people leave than forgive them, thats their perrogative, and its the persons perogative to leave the Church if they want.
to tell someone, to continue coming to Mass and be involved in the Church and pray, but you can’t receive the Eucharist , is so well how do I say it politely, condescending. Doesn’t that make the Church itself,
a cafeteria Church,
its like a punishment, reward system. We not throwing you out, just not going to let you participate in the Body of Christ with the rest of parish (which can we assum are in less sin than the person not allowed).
Holding a bone in front of a dog is what it is, behave you get the bone if not you don’t.
So what kind of dog would stay in a home thats not feeding him, he’d find another place to get fed.
to tell someone, to continue coming to Mass and be involved in the Church and pray, but you can’t receive the Eucharist , is so well how do I say it politely, condescending. Doesn’t that make the Church itself,
a cafeteria Church,
its like a punishment, reward system. We not throwing you out, just not going to let you participate in the Body of Christ with the rest of parish (which can we assum are in less sin than the person not allowed).
Holding a bone in front of a dog is what it is, behave you get the bone if not you don’t.
So what kind of dog would stay in a home thats not feeding him, he’d find another place to get fed.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Luv, you still don’t get this. Or you are being deliberately dense.
NONE of us deserve the Eucharist. It’s not guaranteed to anyone. There are times when I have to sit it out and pray, most notably a few weeks ago when I was in Paris, in Notre Dame Cathedral. I was in mortal sin and could not desecrate the Eucharist by receiving. It’s not like getting dessert for goodness’ sake!!!
:banghead::doh2:
NONE of us deserve the Eucharist. It’s not guaranteed to anyone. There are times when I have to sit it out and pray, most notably a few weeks ago when I was in Paris, in Notre Dame Cathedral. I was in mortal sin and could not desecrate the Eucharist by receiving. It’s not like getting dessert for goodness’ sake!!!
:banghead::doh2:
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ricofall
Guest
Interesting enough, I went to a class last night by our local priest. He was talking about marriage and the tribunal process. He did refer to canon law, but I did not write down the number. Here are a few things he said
The Church is who designates the witness for God. Every diocese has their witnesses to God, a priest, who has permission to perform a marriage in his diocese, must ask for permission from the person in that diocese who has the permission. With that said, it does not have to be a priest, it can be a deacon or even a layperson (if priest and deacons are not available)
All marriages are considered valid until questions arises. Even from protestants that come into the church.
It was very informative.
The Church is who designates the witness for God. Every diocese has their witnesses to God, a priest, who has permission to perform a marriage in his diocese, must ask for permission from the person in that diocese who has the permission. With that said, it does not have to be a priest, it can be a deacon or even a layperson (if priest and deacons are not available)
All marriages are considered valid until questions arises. Even from protestants that come into the church.
It was very informative.
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rainbow1
Guest
I preferred not to be judged as harming my Church because I chose to ask about a procedure that I want to learn more about and because I am motivated to help our Church family grow.
I do believe that we have to be able to judge sinful and non sinful behaviors. How could we possibly grow in virtue if we do not? In fact we have to be extremely clever to keep a close watch on where satan might try to use us in a way we don’t want. I think of that each time I make a post. How will people interpret what I am saying? Will they think I am giving license to poor behaviors? Will they believe that I easily dismiss what my Church says and think they should disregard what our Church recommends? Will they possibly get further discouraged by a thread where they see Catholics arguing and see no resolution? Could satan be causing further damage to people by arguments on CAF or could there actually end up being good communication and respect for one another that will help all of us heal and our Church family to grow?
I do not believe it is necessarily a good approach to point fingers at people and claim they are not “good enough” or that they are" not a Catholic" as a method to try to reach them. And I hope we are trying to reach people. I hope the goal is to try to nurture souls to keep them in our beautiful and awesome Church which is the only place on earth the Eucharist is found. I do believe that strong stands for Truth are necessary , but sometimes that strong stance can be found in the kindest, most gentle words. St.Francis comes to mind.
I for one will not be leaving the Church…because it is where my Lord in the Eucharist is found here on this side of heaven. I do not blame people who do choose to leave, but I feel a very deep sadness for them. I actually ache for them. I ache for their children, and the generations to come that will never be a physical human tabernacle for the Lord and never know how blessed we are to have the Eucharistic feast each day.
I recommend we “step over” the arguments and try to focus trying to “understand” each other. This is an earnest request for peace.
Is there a task force in the Catholic Church where lay people have (name removed by moderator)ut into the annulment process? Where research is being done through the Church to understand the profound effects …such as on a woman who recieves the annulment questions and stuffs them in a drawer and cries for a few months? What is the support given to this woman as she reviews her marriage? How many Catholics feel suicidal when they go through trying to reunderstand their marriage? Is support given? Do people leave the Church because the process is too painful for them to deal with alone? Do divorced men and women leave because they can’t go through another “trial” when they just went through a civil one? Do parishes have an accountability program set up to make sure that people who start the process and find it too difficult are contacted to make sure they are ok? Is there a nationwide program to help Catholics who are suffering from divorce to deal with their raw aches, pains, tears, and despair rather than having them turn to protestant divorce support groups that welcome them with warm arms? Is there a divorce support group with reading and or video audio materials available that is soley written on the premise of staying connected to the Eucharist? Are there groups set up in churches to provide meals and ongoing care to men and or women and particularly the children whose families are falling apart with a goal to keep the children in our faith?
I am not here to argue, I am here to try to earnestly understand what others have experienced during divorce, to try to build bridges for Catholics who are divorced to stay connected with the Eucharist, and to also develope friendships with all of you here on this thread.
I do believe that we have to be able to judge sinful and non sinful behaviors. How could we possibly grow in virtue if we do not? In fact we have to be extremely clever to keep a close watch on where satan might try to use us in a way we don’t want. I think of that each time I make a post. How will people interpret what I am saying? Will they think I am giving license to poor behaviors? Will they believe that I easily dismiss what my Church says and think they should disregard what our Church recommends? Will they possibly get further discouraged by a thread where they see Catholics arguing and see no resolution? Could satan be causing further damage to people by arguments on CAF or could there actually end up being good communication and respect for one another that will help all of us heal and our Church family to grow?
I do not believe it is necessarily a good approach to point fingers at people and claim they are not “good enough” or that they are" not a Catholic" as a method to try to reach them. And I hope we are trying to reach people. I hope the goal is to try to nurture souls to keep them in our beautiful and awesome Church which is the only place on earth the Eucharist is found. I do believe that strong stands for Truth are necessary , but sometimes that strong stance can be found in the kindest, most gentle words. St.Francis comes to mind.
I for one will not be leaving the Church…because it is where my Lord in the Eucharist is found here on this side of heaven. I do not blame people who do choose to leave, but I feel a very deep sadness for them. I actually ache for them. I ache for their children, and the generations to come that will never be a physical human tabernacle for the Lord and never know how blessed we are to have the Eucharistic feast each day.
I recommend we “step over” the arguments and try to focus trying to “understand” each other. This is an earnest request for peace.
Is there a task force in the Catholic Church where lay people have (name removed by moderator)ut into the annulment process? Where research is being done through the Church to understand the profound effects …such as on a woman who recieves the annulment questions and stuffs them in a drawer and cries for a few months? What is the support given to this woman as she reviews her marriage? How many Catholics feel suicidal when they go through trying to reunderstand their marriage? Is support given? Do people leave the Church because the process is too painful for them to deal with alone? Do divorced men and women leave because they can’t go through another “trial” when they just went through a civil one? Do parishes have an accountability program set up to make sure that people who start the process and find it too difficult are contacted to make sure they are ok? Is there a nationwide program to help Catholics who are suffering from divorce to deal with their raw aches, pains, tears, and despair rather than having them turn to protestant divorce support groups that welcome them with warm arms? Is there a divorce support group with reading and or video audio materials available that is soley written on the premise of staying connected to the Eucharist? Are there groups set up in churches to provide meals and ongoing care to men and or women and particularly the children whose families are falling apart with a goal to keep the children in our faith?
I am not here to argue, I am here to try to earnestly understand what others have experienced during divorce, to try to build bridges for Catholics who are divorced to stay connected with the Eucharist, and to also develope friendships with all of you here on this thread.
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Luvtosew
Guest
No I get it= understand it perfectly , and no I"m not dense, I am stating my opinion.
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