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rainbow1
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Aw geez…guess I have to go by myself…hahaha…
Glad you have a good and supportive parish now…
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Glad you have a good and supportive parish now…
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joanofarc2008
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You can come visit mine - I told you that before.
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rainbow1
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Planning to!
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joanofarc2008
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Planning to!
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FCGeorge
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Father, I hope you are well. I do not necessarily disagree. The key question is whether my heart is “demanding respect from others” out of a love for myself, or whether it is out of a love of the other. Jesus didn’t "demand respect for Himself, for His own sake. Rather, out of love of the other. As you rightly point out, God knows our hearts.
I google searched, “american catholic bishop, divorce” and did find a pretty good article by
Siobhan M. Verbeek, JCL, associate director for the Secretariat of Doctrine of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
I also found a good article telling of the attempt of a small group of abandoned spouses to encourage our American bishops to address the inconsistent teachings about divorce…
speroforum.com/a/39853/Catholic-bishops-must-resolve-inconsistent-teachings-about-divorce
But I could not find anything from any American bishop that said anything close to what Hermas said…
And I said to him, “What if the woman put away should repent, and
wish to return to her husband: shall she not be taken back by her
husband?” And he said to me, "Assuredly. If the husband do not take
her back, he sins, and brings a great sin upon himself; for he ought
to take back the sinner who has repented…In this matter man and
woman are to be treated exactly in the same way. –The Shepherd 4:1-10
There is even a bishop in Peoria, IL who has a youtube video out in which he says, “we all know that marriages end in divorce.”
For the faithful Catholic, however, we know that marriages do NOT “end in divorce.” (This is why our Blessed Lord says that it is “adultery” to divorce and marry someone else. The divorce did not end the marriage.)
Father, if you know of clear teaching from an American bishop defending marriage against divorce then I truly would like to hear/read it. I do, very much, pray that you are right. And that more bishops are courageous in proclaiming the Truth in this battle against the father of all lies.
May God bless you Father,
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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EvelynEVF
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I’d also like to thank Joan and Melissa for sharing here and in the divorce/annulment forum. One of the difficult things about being in a marriage with an NPD/BPD is how well they can hide their disorder when they want to. And then when you combine that with a “good Christian” wife who is taught not to criticize her husband, ever, we sometimes have trouble reminding ourselves that we really are perceiving reality, however bizarre it is. During my (typical) phase in the first year or two after I left, where I just had to talk to somebody practically any chance I got, this was the place I could write, knowing that people here would actually believe me. I converted in the middle of the mess, so my old church disowned me, and while everyone is very kind in the new parish, initially I didn’t know people well enough to be having those sorts of conversations.
IRL, Dh is very involved in a visible ministry in the parish and has freely spread the tale that I just up and left him for no reason at all. Some of his acquaintances have recently begun to invite me to social events or ministries where he will also be going, and I am getting more and more uncomfortable declining without explaining.
I am very well supported by all the clergy and staff, who know the real scoop.
It tickles me that we’ve passed 700 posts! I wish we could all be together with a big pot of tea!
IRL, Dh is very involved in a visible ministry in the parish and has freely spread the tale that I just up and left him for no reason at all. Some of his acquaintances have recently begun to invite me to social events or ministries where he will also be going, and I am getting more and more uncomfortable declining without explaining.
I am very well supported by all the clergy and staff, who know the real scoop.
It tickles me that we’ve passed 700 posts! I wish we could all be together with a big pot of tea!
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rainbow1
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Evelyn…I went through something similar, where I questioned if I were perceiving reality correctly…so wanting to not misjudge my husband. What helped me was to write down actual statements coming out of his mouth and then to hang onto the paper for a couple weeks and then reread it …wow, I was really amazed at how the time difference helped me to grasp the subtelties of what had been said. It was very healing to me. I still occasionally find pieces of paper in pocketbooks or suitcases where I stuck them away to reread…in fact, I found one yesterday and let me tell you…4 1/2 years down the road and I am very happy not to hear that stuff anymore… maybe we all can meet one day…that would be wonderful!
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rainbow1
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rainbow1
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Oops , sorry, I sent the above post with no content…
It is Monday morning, what can I say!Bryan,
On the topic of respect. If I am in a relationship with another person, and if I permit the other person to treat me disrespectfully, then in effect, what I am also allowing is for the other person to be disrespectful to themselves also. If I allow someone to be disrespectful to me, then I also am allowing them to sin and be disresctful towards themselves…I would be an enabler.
Now granted, there are some people who continue to behave exactly how they are going to behave despite anything any of us will do…but I do not have to stay in their company and encourage it. For example, if I have an aquaintance who consistently belittles my ideas, then I am doing not only myself a disfavor, I am giving the other person the idea that this type of behavior is ok. If I set clear boundaries with the person, and eventually leave the situation if the behavior does not stop, then I actually am respecting the other person more and doing them a favor. Perhaps they eventually will learn somewhere down the road that disrespectful behavior is not ok.
On the topic of divorce and the Church. The insinuations you are making imply that the majority of bishops are not concerned with the number of divorces happening and hence are not pro-marriage. I am concerned that you have this concept about our faith, and assure you, that this is not the case. I challenge you to set up an appointment with your own bishop, or at least your hometown priest and talk to him to see what his opinions are. I think that you will find that your priest is pro-marriage, and actually could support you in your pain of your own marriage. If you were truly in a valid marriage, I am sure your priest would support you in upholding that relationship. I also continue to ask that you share your own specific issues about your own situation. The folks on this thread are a caring bunch, and I am sure you will also find support here.
Bryan, you certainly are very entitled to having your own opinion, if you believe that no marriages should be classified as null. And we can all discuss that and have good conversation about that. But please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church’s stance anymore in this thread. State the true stance of the Church, and how you disagree with it. If you do not understand the stance of the Church, please go back to the first 300 posts which really do go into detail about the legalistic stances of the Church, and reread those. Lots of people do not understand them, and that is why we spent alot of time going over it.
The divorce and annulment topic is a very sensitive and difficult topic for people to discuss. I ask that we all pray to keep our hearts open to be sensitive and nurturing towards all involved and to make this a safe place to share our opinions, our hurts, and our hopes.
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joanofarc2008
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Evelyn- I too went through that period of wondering if I had been the one to lose it. Then my xh started sending me emails. I still have them. I would go back and read some of the horrible things he said to me. Of course he made an account just to send them that were supposedly from another person so I could never get them put under the “harassment” umbrella. Once the decree goes through I will be destroying them as well as all the other paperwork that I have from him. As it was I had to get all of the other paperwork out of my house. It almost after a while became this very dark presence in my house. When the decree is done my friend promised to destroy it for me. That has been the only hard part about the process not being able to completely make the break until I have completely made the break.
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rainbow1
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I so know what you mean about a “dark presence” in the house…I ended up putting two boxes of the paperwork in the garage…I have a friend who is willing to burn it for me when I can sort through it and finally get rid of it! Interesting thing, when I got the stuff out of the house, the kids even noticed a difference in the house…strange enough…
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joanofarc2008
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I thought it was just me. Knowing his history - and those of you that have talked to me more know it - maybe there is something a little more spiritual about that. I actually started sleeping through nights once it was gone.
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FCGeorge
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Hello Rainbow,
This is kind of what I have tried to say. My concern for my spouse “disrespecting” me is not based on how it makes me feel. Rather, it is based on what it is doing to *her *and reveals about her. This is Christ’s concern for us disrespecting Him. I’m sorry if I was not very clear about that.
First of all I would like to praise the large number of shepherds who are now speaking loudly about what is now happening with our President forcing Catholics to pay for contraceptives through forced insurance plans. My own bishop has written a strong letter about this. The problem, however, is that they are looking to assemble an army for battle and behind them they hear only crickets chirping in the empty field. One recent study found that 98% of “Catholic” women who are sexually active use some form of contraception. (*'The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. *
St. Louis Marie de Montfort)
Why is that? It is largely because men and women can comfortably sit in pews every Sunday (or the Sunday’s they feel like going) and partake of Holy Communion as if they are not in the midst of any mortal sin. Why is that? It is because the shepherds have largely been silent on the issue.
When have you ever heard, “I, Father ____ love you so much that I am going to tell you something that may offend you. It may make you mad at me. It may cause you to consider not coming back. But, I would rather you be upset with me than comfortably sit in these pews until you die 45 years from now and find yourself in front of the King and are told, “I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!” This is what will happen if you do not repent of the grave immoral offense of contraception. You are not to be partaking of Holy Communion if you are obstinately persisting in this grave sin. I love you enough to tell you this. If you do not understand why contraception is so gravely sinful then please, I beg of you, come to me privately or with a group. There is so much teaching on this over Church history. In your bulletins you will find very plain quotes from St. Augustine, Pope Paul VI, etc…”
Imagine for a minute that this message had been preached for the last 40 years.
It is the very same message that needs to be preached with regards to divorce. Yes, a CIVIL divorce is morally licit in certain exceptional situations. However, it is ALWAYS gravely sinful to claim that the indissoluble bond of a valid marriage has been broken. (Again, I beg of you, please, please, please do not interpret this as a spouse who is being abused or cheated on cannot ever file for civil divorce… there ARE certain times when civil divorce could be okay.)
Now, imagine if this message had been preached for the last 40 years.
Recently many of the bishops of the country of Malta fought tooth and nail to prevent the legalization of civil divorce. They already had in place a means of separation for gravely abusive situations. Can you find ONE SINGLE STATEMENT FROM ANY AMERICAN BISHOP helping the bishops of Malta??? Please do not use the “it is not in there boundaries” excuse. I will post a quote from the late (and probably Saint!) Archbishop Fulton Sheen showing that bishops role in the Church extends beyond their diocese. They are responsible for fighting evil throughout the world. Why the silence???
Rainbow, I pray that you really do not think I believe that. I have even given examples on here of truly invalid marriages. (i.e. 1) adulterous remarriages, 2) “Hey, you are my sister!?! I never knew!! Ughh!” 3) “I was drunk and woke up in a Vegas hotel with a ring on my finger. What!?!”, etc…)
Please, if you feel that there has been a misrepresentation then I pray that you will point it out. We will be held accountable for our words and I would appreciate the opportunity to correct mine where need be
Along these lines… out of true charity… a while back you posted a hypothetical where a woman committed adultery. I pray you reconsider your interpretation of Church teaching on that. Where does the Catholic Church teach, “You can commit adultery as long as you do not think it is adultery and as long as your husband is gone many nights out of the week and as long as you have had a terrible childhood. If these things have happened, then you may commit adultery and receive the Blessed Sacrament without true repentance from the adultery.”
Many posts ago you asked me to share my personal story and you listed a few questions. Do you know what post that was? Maybe you are right and I should share. I just still don’t know.
May God bless you and and continue to use you as His instrument in the life of your troubled friend.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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FCGeorge
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I pray to have the opportunity to meet with His Excellency. It is not as easy as one thinks it should be. My priest is a very faithful priest. He was God’s primary instrument to helping bring this stubborn Baptist boy to seeing the Truth of Catholic Church (not a single family member is thrilled with the conversion). I am blessed to be able to meet with him often. I am blessed with a very faithful priest. He prays for our bishop… who has a youtube video saying, “we all know that marriages end in divorce.” Our priest allowed me to preview the dvd version and refused to distribute the dvd version to our parish… “Return to sender.”
But again, I sincerely praise His Excellency for the strong letter against what the President’s administration is currently doing. I just pray it is not too late.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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rainbow1
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I have been thinking about what Mamaslo had said several posts back about how music gives her a way to express her deep feelings. Years ago I participated in a divorce support group, and the leader of the group would put together a cd for each member with songs about losing a relationship that reminded him of each of the member’s situations. I was wondering if any of you have had a special song that helps put into words the feelings that you have had during the divorce/ annulment experience? Or maybe a song that helps pull you through?
Blessings to all…
Blessings to all…
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joanofarc2008
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How do you know they sit comfortably? Sin of pride. Not all shepherds have been silent on this issue and most have not been. Again sin of pride? Your priest from what you have said seems to going against his own promises of obedience to his Bishop. This is between him and his bishop. However saying that some marriages end in divorce is just basic fact it is not anything to against Church teaching. St Francis says regardless even if a priest is the worst kind of sinner we are still to kiss the hands of the one that consecrates the Eucharist. I wonder if you can extend yourself to listen to all the Saints or only those that agree with you.
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TryingToLearn
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Can you please cite the study? I have yet to find a study that reports that fact. I am aware of two studies, one from the CDC in 2002 and one from the Guttmacher Institute from last year which may have been combined to create that imaginary number but it is just that, imaginary.
First, lets be clear, neither come close to saying that 98% (99% of what the White House is citing and wants us to believe) of Catholic women ARE using contraception. The 2002 CDC report at best states that at least one time 99% of all women HAVE used contraception. And in their study NFP counted as contraception.
In the more recent Guttmacher Institute report the abstracts and results are very hard to figure out what the truth is. However, the stats are clearly not anything near 98 or 99% of Catholic women actively using contraception. At best the numbers show that of all sexually active Catholic women that do not wish to get pregnant right now 87% are using some form of birth control other than NFP.
Now, let’s consider that number… First, 87% is not close to 98%.
Second, we have no indication what percentage of Catholic women are not using birth control because they are open to pregnancy. That could really shift the number dramatically.
Third, the number is reporting strictly for women “at risk” of getting pregnant. In other words, women choosing to remain chaste were also excluded. Now, the report helps a bit here, it tells us that 30% of Catholic women in the survey sample had not engaged in pre-marital sex.
Whoa! That means that at best we are looking at 61% of Catholic women actively using birth control. If 1 in 10 Catholic women are currently trying to get pregnant, and 1 in 10 are open to pregnancy, that number falls to below 50%. The more actively trying to get pregnant or open to pregnancy (women excluded from their statistics on contraceptive use) the further that number falls.
The other thing that I find terrible about the reporting on that Guttenmacher study is that they outright state that the results are weighted, but they give no indication for how they went about weighting the results or why. Did they find that fewer Catholic women would answer the questions so they just weighted the results assuming the women that wouldn’t discuss their sexual activity would have answered in the same ratios as women willing to discuss their sexual relations? Did they weight the results in some other manner? No raw numbers are offered to help analyze the numbers that are clearly flawed if the intent is to show how many Catholic women are not following the Church’s teaching.
Beyond that, the number is irrelevant. Taking the logic used here, we can do the following mental gymnastics. 70% of all women engage in premarital sex, therefore we should institute a law that mandates all women have premarital intercourse. And, if 98% of all American cheat on their taxes, should that be legally sanctioned as well.
Just because people do wrong does not mean we legally endorse or fund it. It’s a flawed argument and flawed statistics… Don’t buy into the lies and flawed rhetoric.
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rainbow1
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Bryan,
You grossly misrepresented my post about the woman and her possible scenario…post number 603. I’m just sayin’…
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FCGeorge
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jonathanturley.org/2012/02/05/catholics-contraception-the-heretical-98/
Hey TryingtoLearn,
Thanks… I guess I should “try to learn” from TryingtoLearn!
I agree, the 98% of “sexually active U.S. Catholic Women” seems unrealistically high. I’ll trust your analysis as I don’t have time to dig into the study. Whether it is 50% of “sexually active Catholic women” or 60% or 89% or 98%, it is WAY too many. These are souls that are likely headed to Hell unless they repent of the sin. The message needs to be clearly preached. It seems, instead, however, that some rely on the “But, but, but, these women do not know it is gravely sinful. Therefore it is not gravely sinful for them.”
The ignorance, however, in order to make these women innocent, must be invincible ignorance. The vast, vast majority of women (and men… lets not forget that the man is equally sinful in this… it takes two to tango) in the U.S., who honestly want to know the Truth about contraception could easily search the Catechism’s teaching or teachings of various popes. It is very clear there. The vast majority of men and women who do not know that contraception is gravely sinful do not know because they haven’t loved the Truth enough to seek it.
Again, I pray this doesn’t come across as “Grinch-ish.” It is truly about a love of souls. The reason the discussion on this topic came up here is that the Truth on divorce needs to be clearly preached just as the Truth on contraception needs to be clearly preached. The failure to teach and preach both has helped to lead to where we are now. Let’s pray for the continued courage of the bishops who are now standing up to lead us into battle. And let’s join them in the fight!! “In god’s name! Let us go bravely!”- St. Joan of Arc, 1429
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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joanofarc2008
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St Joan of Arc did not just preach - she lead by example. If you wish to invoke and pull quotes out of context in order to suit your purpose than I suggest you also remember that she had three other Canonized Saints guiding her path. When you so brazenly question the Magisterium of the Church who is your guide?
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