Divorce

[discipulus]

All interesting points, and I understand them.

Ok, so, since the point of “If a spouse is being beaten and tortured by the other” is raised, should remarriage be illegal then?

 

[Petergee]

Yerusalyim:

Further, the church could doctrinally care less if a couple that was not married sacramentally receive a divorce. If they aren’t married sacramentally then no true marriage exists, therefore, civil divorce is meaningless to the Church.

That’s not quite true. The Church cares about the physical, mental and spiritual welfare of all, even non-Christians, and the stability and justice of civil society as a whole. It is not at all happy with the present situation of virtual serial polygamy in Western countries. It would like all married people to have permanent exclusive marriages and promotes the enactment of civil laws to support that aim.

 

[1ke]

discipulus:

Hmm… it has always struck me as interesting an odd…

To the Catholic Church, homosexual marriage is a sin that should not be tolerated and violates all natural law. I agree that homosexual marriage is wrong, and that working to pass a law to forbid it from our country is a good thing.

So, my question: given that the Catholic church also forbids divorce just as much as it does homosexual “marriage” shouldn’t we also lobby to outlaw divorce as well? I mean, it seems right that we should be consistant.

There are many things that, in days past, were illegal as well as immoral. Divorce, contraception, and abortion for example.

Countries began legalizing or liberalizing the laws (such as “no fault” divorce) at various times in history. The US has been one to abolish most all laws that protected society at one time.

The Church supported these laws, and condemned their change and abolition. In countries that still have these sorts of laws the Church opposes their removal.

In countries such as the US where these laws have been abolished we absolutely should work towards reinstating them.

There is no inconsistency in the Catholic position-- only the moral failure of Catholics in cases wehre they could, but don’t, take action to change the laws.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Ok, so, since the point of “If a spouse is being beaten and tortured by the other” is raised, should remarriage be illegal then?

Illegal, no…against Cannon Law? Well, unless an annulment is abtained remarriage isn’t allowed following ANY divorce.

I’ll say it bluntly, I think you have an agenda in asking these question. I’ve seen it before in my discussions with those who support the idea of gay marriage.

Look, you just can’t equate the gay marriage issue with divorce…they are mutually exclusive issues. Cannon law and moral law allows for divorce and annullment…neither cannon law nor moral law allow for gay marriage.

Marriage is a contract NOT between just two people, but rather, between two people and SOCIETY who have recognized the traditional family as the basic building block of society and has therefore granted a special privelege called marriage between the progenetors of microcosmic society…the husband and wife who are capable…all things being equally…of producing children. That’s why society requires a contract to begin a marriage, and a contract to end it.

There is no inherent RIGHT to marriage…be it gay or straight…or polygamist either…however, as a societal contract society should decide for itself what relationships it wishes to honor…and if society (not a judge) decides to allow gay marriage…so be it…but the Church never will.

 

[John_Higgins]

I think Catholics should rally so that everything which the Church believes is a grave matter should be a felony and everything less grave should be a misdemeanor.

Not.

John

 

[Montie_Claunch]

I took Child Psycology last semester and as part we had to research something about it and give a speech over it. I did mine over the effects of divorce on children and on that simply one could build a good cause on getting rid of (if not strongly restrickting dirvoce [hopefully better than my home state does]).

 

[discipulus]

Yerusalyim:

There is no inherent RIGHT to marriage…be it gay or straight…or polygamist either…however, as a societal contract society should decide for itself what relationships it wishes to honor…and if society (not a judge) decides to allow gay marriage…so be it…but the Church never will.

I don’t quite understand what your saying, are you saying that it’s ok to just sit back and if society chooses to allow gay marriage, as it does abortion, that “so be it” as you say.

I don’t think that’s a Catholic understanding at all, but I may not quite understand what you are saying. Please help me, I’m lost.

Yerusalyim:

I’ll say it bluntly, I think you have an agenda in asking these question. I’ve seen it before in my discussions with those who support the idea of gay marriage.

Oh, and if you were wondering, I do have an agenda in asking this question, I want to know what people think and I want to explore morality, after all that is what a forum is for.

Petergee:

…in most protestant-majority states and countries, divorce has been legal since the 16th century, although until recent decades it was more difficult to get a divorce, and divorce was quite rare.

The Church agrees with people obtaining a civil “divorce” in some circumstances, but it understands this “divorce” as a legally enforced separation, NOT as what the State understands, that the spouses are free to remarry.

I did not know that divorce had been illegal before, I always thought it was legal but more discouraged. Thanks for telling me that, I learn something new every day.

 

[Tietjen]

discipulus:

Ahhh, that makes more sense, thank you for explaining that to me, I did not know that.

Hmm, but if the scenario you mentioned above occurs, should we then outlaw remarriage after divorce?

It already is outlawed; at least within the Church. One can not remarry in the Church unless one has been granted an annulment by the Church. Divorce is a matter of civil law. Annulments are a matter of Cannon Law. Divorce is society’s idea of ending a marriage (which in truth cannot be done in the eyes of God). An annulment is when the Church declares that a valid marriage never took place and therefore those involved in that non-existent marriage are in fact not married. There is a difference.

 

[discipulus]

Tietjen:

It already is outlawed; at least within the Church. One can not remarry in the Church unless one has been granted an annulment by the Church. Divorce is a matter of civil law. Annulments are a matter of Cannon Law. Divorce is society’s idea of ending a marriage (which in truth cannot be done in the eyes of God). An annulment is when the Church declares that a valid marriage never took place and therefore those involved in that non-existent marriage are in fact not married. There is a difference.

Ahhh… makes sense, now I think I get a more clear view of what’s going on.

 

[wjp984]

How cna you outlaw something that Catholics do all the time. More than half the marriages in this country end in divorce and Catholic marraiges are not by any means exampt from that statistic. However, true practicing Catholics won’t get divorced at least I hope they won’t.

 

[Tietjen]

wjp984:

How cna you outlaw something that Catholics do all the time. More than half the marriages in this country end in divorce and Catholic marraiges are not by any means exampt from that statistic. However, true practicing Catholics won’t get divorced at least I hope they won’t.

As do I. However, speaking personally here, it is possible for a “true practicing Catholic” to find themself divorcing. It only takes one person in the marriage to file for divorce. The other spouse in such a situation, has little say over whether or not the civil court grants the divorce. After that, a “true practicing Catholic” is left to burden the cross of knowing that he/she really is still married and therefore cannot enter into any other relationships unless an annulment is granted by the Church. It’s a sad story but as you indicated, one that happens all to often in society (Catholics included). My point though is that just because a Catholic is divorced, it is wrong to assume that they have or are in sin on the issue.

 

[homewardangel]

Oh my gosh!! I can’t believe what some of these posts are saying!! The truth of the matter is that both the gay lifestyle and divorce are just results of problems in life.

In a perfect world there would be no divorce, everyone would be perfect. In a perfect world we could never marry an abusive or alcoholic person - there wouldn’t be any of those types of people because the world would be perfect.

As far as the effects of divorce on the upbringing of children, remember there is more than 1 side to every study. I know countless children who would be better off if their parents would divorce. But since divorce is wrong the spouse stays with the abusive, alcoholic, demeaning soul crushing partner. That is very harmful to a child’s development - now a divorce may not make the child’s life perfect but it could improve very much.

I don’t know any one person who is gay, so I don’t know this. But I have a hard time believing that people are born “gay” anymore than people are born murderers or rapists. Free will can cause lots of problems, maybe the child had some type of traumatic life as he grew - some kids turn to drugs, alcohol, rape, murder…so maybe some turn to gay lifestyle. Just how I see it with my limited experience.

Terry

 

[maryjk]

homewardangel:

As far as the effects of divorce on the upbringing of children, remember there is more than 1 side to every study. I know countless children who would be better off if their parents would divorce. But since divorce is wrong the spouse stays with the abusive, alcoholic, demeaning soul crushing partner. That is very harmful to a child’s development - now a divorce may not make the child’s life perfect but it could improve very much.Terry

children in single-parent homes get less attention, spend less time with their folks, have fewer economic opportunities, and in the end they get less education. A college-educated mom is worried about giving her kids the best possible education and formation so that they can get into the best universities. A single mom is working hard just to make ends meet. It’s a marital stability gap perpetuating a cultural and material resource gap. Or check out what Wade Horn, assistant secretary at Health and Human Services, wrote in Crisis Magazine. Among other things, he says that at retirement, married couples have, on average, assets worth two and a half times as much as their single counterparts.

Only 10% of kids at America’s top 50 universities have made it there from divorced families.

From
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184236,00.html

Yes, we want to get children out of the house if there is abuse.

But how many times is it simply because Mom and Dad don’t love each other anymore? Or because Mom or Dad “found someone else?” Or because Mom or Dad grew apart? Or whatever the newest reason is?

I feel that there should be a stop to the “no fault” divorce. Where no one is at fault. Well, if no one is at fault, then stay together. If he/she is beating you, get out.

 

[Tietjen]

maryjk:

From
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184236,00.html

Yes, we want to get children out of the house if there is abuse.

But how many times is it simply because Mom and Dad don’t love each other anymore? Or because Mom or Dad “found someone else?” Or because Mom or Dad grew apart? Or whatever the newest reason is?

I feel that there should be a stop to the “no fault” divorce. Where no one is at fault. Well, if no one is at fault, then stay together. If he/she is beating you, get out.

I wholeheartedly agree! Well said and God bless you!

 

[homewardangel]

I came from a home where parents did not get divorced. I don’t mean that they should have gotten divorced. But remember just because parents stay married that doesn’t mean it was a good place to be raised. Believe me, there were NO economic advantages in my house. No college discussions. Dysfunction happens in many different ways.

I was not given “attention”, I was 1 of 7 children I was lucky to get fed. All that I got were hand me downs and told don’t get my hopes up wanting things, then I won’t be disappointed.

I still to this day do not know my father. Since he did not graduate from high school he had to work 60 to 70 hours per week to provide for his family. I never spent time with him. My 2 parent family worked harder to make ends meet that I do as a single parent family.

When I was married I didn’t have a college degree, now I am divorced and I do have a degree. I do want whats best for my kids and look out for their development. I just wish that my parents would have done the same for me. But they couldn’t because they were too busy trying to get through the day at hand.

I am not going to weigh my retirement in versus raising my children. If I end up with less money when I retire, but my kids are healthy, well adjusted human beings then I made the right decision in life. Staying married isn’t about the money…I thought we were talking about the spiritual aspect of the issue.

Terry

 

[Ted_CharlotteNC]

maryjk:

From
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184236,00.html

Yes, we want to get children out of the house if there is abuse.

But how many times is it simply because Mom and Dad don’t love each other anymore? Or because Mom or Dad “found someone else?” Or because Mom or Dad grew apart? Or whatever the newest reason is?

I feel that there should be a stop to the “no fault” divorce. Where no one is at fault. Well, if no one is at fault, then stay together. If he/she is beating you, get out.

I never thought about that. Maybe accepting blame for the break-up would help.

 

[Tietjen]

homewardangel:

I came from a home where parents did not get divorced. I don’t mean that they should have gotten divorced. But remember just because parents stay married that doesn’t mean it was a good place to be raised. Believe me, there were NO economic advantages in my house. No college discussions. Dysfunction happens in many different ways.

I was not given “attention”, I was 1 of 7 children I was lucky to get fed. All that I got were hand me downs and told don’t get my hopes up wanting things, then I won’t be disappointed.

I still to this day do not know my father. Since he did not graduate from high school he had to work 60 to 70 hours per week to provide for his family. I never spent time with him. My 2 parent family worked harder to make ends meet that I do as a single parent family.

When I was married I didn’t have a college degree, now I am divorced and I do have a degree. I do want whats best for my kids and look out for their development. I just wish that my parents would have done the same for me. But they couldn’t because they were too busy trying to get through the day at hand.

I am not going to weigh my retirement in versus raising my children. If I end up with less money when I retire, but my kids are healthy, well adjusted human beings then I made the right decision in life. Staying married isn’t about the money…I thought we were talking about the spiritual aspect of the issue.

Terry, I am very sorry for what you endured growing up, and I mean that sincerely. However, what you described doesn’t lead me to believe that life would have been better for you or your siblings had your parents divorced. No, it’s not entirely about finances either. It’s so much more than that. It’s about demonstrating to your children how to love and be loved. It’s about honoring commitment. It’s about raising children. It’s about friendship and companionship. Most of all it’s the reflection of Christ’s relationship with His Church.

I am by no means telling you or anyone else that they should stay around and be abused if a spouse is doing that. What I’m saying is that divorce should not be thought of as a way out so quickly. Regardless whether someone divorces civilly or not, in God’s eyes, they are still married. Who among us can dissolve what God joined? I say this while I sit in an apartment alone while my wife and children are living in a house 30 minutes away. In my case, there was no abuse, no alcoholism, and no drugs. I was asked to leave simply because, as my wife put it, I “just didn’t do it” for her anymore. Yes, there were arguments, but the underlining reason behind it all was that she “felt trapped” and wanted a change. Therefore, when I see other people who are considering divorce, bells go off inside, screaming at me to say something. The alternative would be to say nothing and watch another family be ripped apart. God bless.

 

[homewardangel]

I’m sorry that your marriage didn’t work out. I’m sorry that your wife left you. But I know in my heart that my ex has no clue what was wrong - even when I laid it out, and point blank told them. They just would not see it. Just as my mother and father could not see things that could be done for us - I’m sure there are things that I don’t see about my own life as well. But the difference being that I do ask, I do go to counseling and I do try. I don’t just say its the other person and wash my hands of it.

I think if you hear that someone is getting divorced, ignore the bells that go off. Their divorce is not your business - if you feel the need to help, then say a prayer, a novena, offer up a mass or something on those lines.

The best thing that can be done is to raise our children to be good well balanced adults. Give them good info to make good choices and pray. My divorce in fact was because I had lived such a sheltered life. Had my parents opened my world up when I was young I would have done many things different. Its like I got married when I was 27, but I was only 12 years old emotionally. No one would expect a 12 year old to make wise life choices, but I was expected to.

Terry

 

[wcknight]

It’s a shame when any marriage fails no matter what the cause.

The ones that end because of abuse are no brainers, no one should have to live in fear or suffering.

The ones where cheating is involved, well, that’s where Christ warns us, folks who break their vows do so at their own peril.

The others, I suspect possibly could have been saved or still can be saved. I don’t buy the just feel trapped or want a change in scenery stuff. When you get married you make a solemn commitment to stick it out till death do you part.

No one gets the luxury of choice to opt out on a whim or just because they think it is too hard to make things work. We all have faults and those warts look a lot worse after few years of marriage. But that’s just tough bananas, you have to live with what and who you committed to.

Marriages last when folks stay 100% committed to staying together no matter what, from the very beginning. All too often folks jump into marriage with the idea that IF things don’t work out just right, they can always jump ship.

So when troubles hit and they almost always will, they are much more prone to bail out instead of working hard at making things work. When people anticpate failure at the beginning they create a self fullfilling situation.

IF you go in with an attitude that failure is not an option, you will more likely succeed.