Divorced but still married

[Xantippe]

Ok, I believe it is time I chimed in. First of all, I am not harassing my wife. I came to terms with my anger back in July after giving it all to God. Even before then, I never threatened my wife, either verbally or through texts. Before or after the civil divorce. I have admitted my wrong doing to her and asked for forgiveness.

I have told her that I love her and always will. I also make it a point to tell my kids that I love their mother very much and do not talk negatively about her, so please don’t tell me that I am on legal thin ice or engaging in “post divorce behavior.”

If you persist in unreciprocated communications when asked repeatedly to stop, it will be viewed as harassment.

 

[bellasdad]

We have a difference of opinion. That’s ok. This thread is just another example of dozens I could look up ( if I had I the time or inclination) where the advice given a male (suck it up, your wife needs time/space, supplication is the correct action) vs. females (always given the benefit of the doubt, your husband is a jerk for expecting sex more than you see fit to give it to him [no matter the interval], and my favorite - being depressed excuses all). The OP mentioned a long period of depression in his post, why no sympathy for that?

I agree with a lot of this. Thank you for not assuming me the bad guy here. I left pretty much everything out that I feel my wife did to create a negative atmosphere. Yes, there were years of frigidity, including the wedding night. She is very hard and matter of fact. In the 24 years we have been married I have never once heard her tell her parents or siblings, "I love you ". Quite the opposite of my family.

I also went through years of med that didn’t help the depression but did cause me to have very little sleep which no doubt led to some of my bad choices. I am very surprised, and disappointed, in so many “practicing catholics” who advised both of us to “just move on.” So much til death do us part, huh!?

And I am not worried about her finding another man. I believe she is asexual, so there are no physical desires for sexual intimacy. She is very independent and has a Phd. Her career is her focus and always has been.

Given all that, she is still my wife and I love her deeply.

Because he chose not to trash his wife, for what I suspect may have been many years of icy, frigid treatment - in and out of the bedroom - and instead admitted his emotional infidelity, he immediately lost any and all sympathy. My advice to him was what I truly believe is his best chance at getting her back.

Her not taking off the ring means little IMO. She’s already won. Removed him from the house, got the kids, extracted financial support. By keeping the ring on she gets to remain a “good” Catholic. And assuming she is somewhere between the mid-forties and mid fifties (and healthy), the fact that she is prepared to go the next 30-40 years without sex substantiates the OP when he claimed he went through neglect (physical, at least). That, or like I surmised, she’s keeping her options open.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

And what is it, exactly, that the OP’s wife has done to make her a bad Catholic? Getting a divorce? Not forbidden. Not wanting to equate forgiveness with reconciliation? Not wrong, and it doesn’t make her a worse Catholic than the OP.

Divorce is sometimes permitted when there is an extra-marital affair or abuse. Absent those offenses it is a serious sin. One thing that many posters on this forum do, IMHO, is stretch the definition of what constitutes abuse and cheating to such an extent that a divorce is never really out of the question in any marriage.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Coming back to this, I feel like like there’s some stuff you need to know:

A woman’s having sex against her will with a man she despises and hates won’t make her like him better. In fact, it may cause her to hate him more and make reconciliation more, not less difficult.

I know it’s hard for you as a guy to understand this, but for a woman, it is quite possible to be having sex while simultaneously seething with rage and wanting to be anywhere else, doing anything else.

The difference in advice you see probably comes from the fact that a lot of posters intuitively understand this about female sexuality.

I think the difference is more than likely because most of the posters here are female and naturally see themselves in the place of the wife.

Happy feelings or not you owe your spouse your continued support. Unilaterally deciding to withdraw sex will destroy even the strongest of marriages. If that is what happened in the case of the OP it makes the emotional affair much more understandable and forgivable.

 

[Tablefor9]

Divorce is **sometimes permitted when there is an extra-marital affair or abuse. **Absent those offenses it is a serious sin. One thing that many posters on this forum do, IMHO, is stretch the definition of what constitutes abuse and cheating to such an extent that a divorce is never really out of the question in any marriage.

emphasis mine. Source? Because the Church permits divorce to protect self and children, hands down, even when it is a financial/emotional issue. Divorced persons are not barred from the sacraments, so I really think this is some misinformation you have going here.

To the OP, you have gotten mostly great insight and advice. I would encourage you to listen to the women trying to help you understand your wife’s point of view. You may have been so lost in depression that you don’t know how she and the children were impacted, or what she was doing to change herself (“work on her own issues”). Pray, concentrate on healing and becoming the type of man and father you should be. That is very attractive, and in time may win her back. If not, please don’t blame the priest and your wife for a mess you made with emotional infidelity.

 

[bellasdad]

I think the difference is more than likely because most of the posters here are female and naturally see themselves in the place of the wife.

Happy feelings or not you owe your spouse your continued support. Unilaterally deciding to withdraw sex will destroy even the strongest of marriages. If that is what happened in the case of the OP it makes the emotional affair much more understandable and forgivable.

And I agree that I don’t believe divorce is justified in the Catholic faith for infidelity. Only in certain cases of abuse. And even the I believe the Church says to try legal separation first. She didn’t do that.

Thank you Burt. There was never ANY abuse in our marriage. No verbal, physical or any other. I never threatened her, EVER. She is from an emotionally frigid family, no physical affection or verbal. I insisted for years that we go to counseling. This infuriated her. I stood by her in the early years when her mom asked me to not leave hrr. I stood by her when she went through post pardum psychosis and had vision of killing our newborn. She went to counseling the last few years but again never to address her issues, only mine.

This is where i just list heart. I was not into it.i felt defeated. It was wrong for me to give up. I Regret That Now. Years of med for depression left me going on very little sleep which no doubt contributed to me making bad choices. I have told her how sorry I am and love her with all my heart.

 

[Xantippe]

I think the difference is more than likely because most of the posters here are female and naturally see themselves in the place of the wife.

Happy feelings or not you owe your spouse your continued support. **Unilaterally deciding to withdraw sex will destroy even the strongest of marriages. ** If that is what happened in the case of the OP it makes the emotional affair much more understandable and forgivable.

What is the alternative? Forcing an unwilling spouse to have sex? Either way, somebody is going to be unhappy–either 1) the spouse that wants sex is going to go without or 2) the spouse that doesn’t want sex has sex imposed on them (i.e. something really close to rape). Those are both bad options, and I would argue that a couple working with that dilemma is already not in the “strongest of marriages”.

One thing people haven’t mentioned yet is his repeated (?) concussions. Repeated brain injury is a big deal and could have contributed to making the OP less capable of making good judgments in his relationships with his wife and his children.

So, again, we are not dealing with the “strongest of marriages.”

 

[Tablefor9]

Happy feelings or not you owe your spouse your continued support. Unilaterally deciding to withdraw sex will destroy even the strongest of marriages. If that is what happened in the case of the OP it makes the emotional affair much more understandable and forgivable.

A couple owe each other a loving relationship that expresses itself in sexual intimacy. One person can’t disregard the needs of another then claim their own “rights”.

 

[pianistclare]

You had an affair, you send nasty texts, and you’ve managed to forgive your wife? And you wonder why she hadn’t forgiven you? This whole post was very you oriented. What you did, how you feel, what you want, your “humiliation”, but yet, no consideration for her or her pain and humiliation. Heck, you go so far as to blame her for her hurt and acuse her off just not trusting Jesus enough. And yet, you were mad that the therapist wanted to work on you. The only time it’s not about you is when it’s time to make changes or take responsibility for problems.

She does need to heal, and you need to start looking beyond yourself.

I’ve forgiven an abusive stepfather, but he will never be around my children unsupervised. Forgiveness certainly does not mean all consequences are removed. You may not have been abusive, but this post comes off as extremely narcissistic and I can’t blame her for not wanting to reconcile or raise children under the same roof.

I agree. This sums up my thoughts as I read your post as well.
Praying for you.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

What is the alternative? Forcing an unwilling spouse to have sex? Either way, somebody is going to be unhappy–either 1) the spouse that wants sex is going to go without or 2) the spouse that doesn’t want sex has sex imposed on them (i.e. something really close to rape). Those are both bad options, and I would argue that a couple working with that dilemma is already not in the “strongest of marriages”.

One thing people haven’t mentioned yet is his repeated (?) concussions. Repeated brain injury is a big deal and could have contributed to making the OP less capable of making good judgments in his relationships with his wife and his children.

So, again, we are not dealing with the “strongest of marriages.”

The option is that the less amourous spouse supports their partner out of love.

I do many things for my wife that I don’t particularly enjoy. I wouldn’t necessarily want sex to be one of those things but if it came down to it I’d still have to provide for her needs. If I don’t what can I really expect her to do?

 

[Tablefor9]

So she’s frigid because her family shows affection in a different way than you prefer? And you “stood by her” during a rare psychiatric event which was probably the darkest time of her life, and which may have led to some PTSD of her own. this is what real, loving husbands do. You don’t get a medal.

Apparently, she stood by you through multiple head injuries, years of insomnia and depression, bore you 6 children, raised them as Catholic, and somehow she’s not showing you affection. Did you have clean clothes to wear and dinner on the table? That was affection. Are your children learning to love God and others? That is affection. Did she remind you to call your mother or sister on their birthdays? That is affection.

Continuing to pray for your family. You both need healing and won’t get it under the same roof. Just for fun, you may want to get a book called The 5 Love Languages. She won’t do it with you right now, but why not give it a read to see if you can pick out how she was trying to show you love and how she might have liked to receive love. 5lovelanguages.com

 

[Burt_Macklin]

A couple owe each other a loving relationship that expresses itself in sexual intimacy. One person can’t disregard the needs of another then claim their own “rights”.

I’m not saying that anyone should claim anything; it’s something that should be offered without asking. If one spouse is refusing to provide any affection and not willing to work on the reasons for refusal I’m not really sure what people expect to happen. If you want to push your spouse to an affair that is probably the best way to go about it.

 

[Tablefor9]

I’m not saying that anyone should claim anything; it’s something that should be offered without asking. If one spouse is refusing to provide any affection and not willing to work on the reasons for refusal I’m not really sure what people expect to happen. If you want to push your spouse to an affair that is probably the best way to go about it.

So what does a person who is not having their needs met in other ways get pushed to?
Seriously. If a partner is emotionally absent or treats the spouse and children like pawns at the periphery of their own self-absorbed life, what is that person pushing the spouse to? If a partner is chronically withholding of approval and is consistently negative in their own interactions with family, what are they pushing the spouse to?

Why is it that S-E-X gets all the airtime?

 

[bellasdad]

So she’s frigid because her family shows affection in a different way than you prefer? And you “stood by her” during a rare psychiatric event which was probably the darkest time of her life, and which may have led to some PTSD of her own. this is what real, loving husbands do. You don’t get a medal.

Apparently, she stood by you through multiple head injuries, years of insomnia and depression, bore you 6 children, raised them as Catholic, and somehow she’s not showing you affection. Did you have clean clothes to wear and dinner on the table? That was affection. Are your children learning to love God and others? That is affection. Did she remind you to call your mother or sister on their birthdays? That is affection.

Continuing to pray for your family. You both need healing and won’t get it under the same roof. Just for fun, you may want to get a book called The 5 Love Languages. She won’t do it with you right now, but why not give it a read to see if you can pick out how she was trying to show you love and how she might have liked to receive love. 5lovelanguages.com

Not frigid because they showed affection differently, it wasn’t shown at all. And she wouldn’t consumate on the wedding night either.And yes I stood by her during those dark times and I did not blame her for that condition or accuse her of exaggerating symptoms as she did for me and my clinical depression.

Yes me and the kids had clean clothes, but only because I did 90% of ALL the house work. And no she did not remind me of any birthdays, thank you.

I also bought the book the 5 Love Languages when we were in counseling. She wasn’t interested in it.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

So what does a person who is not having their needs met in other ways get pushed to?
Seriously. If a partner is emotionally absent or treats the spouse and children like pawns at the periphery of their own self-absorbed life, what is that person pushing the spouse to? If a partner is chronically withholding of approval and is consistently negative in their own interactions with family, what are they pushing the spouse to?

Why is it that S-E-X gets all the airtime?

All of those would certainly be very serious problems. Maybe not all that relevant to the OP but very serious problems all the same. Sex doesn’t deserve all the airtime but it does deserve some attention.

 

[Xantippe]

I think the difference is more than likely because most of the posters here are female and naturally see themselves in the place of the wife.

Happy feelings or not you owe your spouse your continued support. Unilaterally deciding to withdraw sex will destroy even the strongest of marriages. If that is what happened in the case of the OP it makes the emotional affair much more understandable and forgivable.

The OP has given a long, long list of problems he and his wife had during their marriage.

 

[bellasdad]

So she’s frigid because her family shows affection in a different way than you prefer? And you “stood by her” during a rare psychiatric event which was probably the darkest time of her life, and which may have led to some PTSD of her own. this is what real, loving husbands do. You don’t get a medal.

Apparently, she stood by you through multiple head injuries, years of insomnia and depression, bore you 6 children, raised them as Catholic.

And I raised them Catholic. She was never interested in the faith until 2009 when I insisted she go on a CHRP retreat.

 

[Xantippe]

So she’s frigid because her family shows affection in a different way than you prefer? And you “stood by her” during a rare psychiatric event which was probably the darkest time of her life, and which may have led to some PTSD of her own. this is what real, loving husbands do. You don’t get a medal.

Apparently, she stood by you through multiple head injuries, years of insomnia and depression, bore you 6 children, raised them as Catholic, and somehow she’s not showing you affection. Did you have clean clothes to wear and dinner on the table? That was affection. Are your children learning to love God and others? That is affection. Did she remind you to call your mother or sister on their birthdays? That is affection.

Continuing to pray for your family. You both need healing and won’t get it under the same roof. Just for fun, you may want to get a book called The 5 Love Languages. She won’t do it with you right now, but why not give it a read to see if you can pick out how she was trying to show you love and how she might have liked to receive love. 5lovelanguages.com

Yes.

I’d also add–considering your wife is a frigid lady, you guys have a lot of kids.

 

[Tablefor9]

…

And I raised them Catholic. She was never interested in the faith until 2009 when I insisted she go on a CHRP retreat.

Okay, so with clinical depression and multiple head injuries, you did 90% of all housework, had no emotional (name removed by moderator)ut from your wife, and shouldered all the responsibility for your children’s upbringing. I have no idea why you want a reconciliation and even less idea why you would blame a priest for saying this mess isn’t a marriage. You ought to send your wife a thank you card, right?

 

[Xantippe]

So what does a person who is not having their needs met in other ways get pushed to?
Seriously. If a partner is emotionally absent or treats the spouse and children like pawns at the periphery of their own self-absorbed life, what is that person pushing the spouse to? If a partner is chronically withholding of approval and is consistently negative in their own interactions with family, what are they pushing the spouse to?

Why is it that S-E-X gets all the airtime?

Right.

Why is that the only “marital right”?