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ibkc
Guest
I reject all of these points about Joseph Smith with the exception of #3. I think JS was a complete and total fraud. It is blasphemy to compare him to Saint Peter in pretty much any way.
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teancum79
Guest
Well you are welcome to your opinions.
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hosemonkey
Guest
mormons want so badly to be regarded as Christians by the rest of Christianity, but they have no problems with blaspheming not only Sts. Peter and Paul, but heartily blaspheming against the Blessed Mother Herself, in that they believe that Elohim had physical sex with the Blessed Virgin. Makes me sick. Worse than any moslem. Proof of their higher regard for Joseph Smith is the mormon belief and teaching that you must have Joseph Smith’s approval before you can enter Heaven. mormans, is that not so?
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I’m coming to the conclusion that Mormons are not Christians. I used to resist that idea, but I’m coming to believe it has merit. Mormons may believe in God, but not the God that we believe in. They may believe in Jesus, but not the Jesus we know. Their Holy Spirit cannot be the same Holy Spirit we know because the Holy Spirit would not confirm for us two diametrically different versions of the Truth.
Christian words, names and terms were apparently co-opted by the Mormons to achieve a semblance of normalcy with the rest of the US, and ultimately, the world. But the understanding of the words is so different as to constitute another “language”. In the past Mormons set themselves apart from the Christian world. Perhaps they should return there. I don’t say that to be hateful, it’s just that there are such differences in understanding that we cannot be talking about the same general religion “Christianity”. At least with most of the Christian world we have some common understanding of terms, concepts, etc. Not so with Mormons.
We were warned about receiving another Gospel, and that we should reject it as an abomination. I once thought it referred to Islam, and perhaps it does. But it applies equally to the Mormon religion:
The DNA evidence is just one more nail in the coffin.
Christian words, names and terms were apparently co-opted by the Mormons to achieve a semblance of normalcy with the rest of the US, and ultimately, the world. But the understanding of the words is so different as to constitute another “language”. In the past Mormons set themselves apart from the Christian world. Perhaps they should return there. I don’t say that to be hateful, it’s just that there are such differences in understanding that we cannot be talking about the same general religion “Christianity”. At least with most of the Christian world we have some common understanding of terms, concepts, etc. Not so with Mormons.
We were warned about receiving another Gospel, and that we should reject it as an abomination. I once thought it referred to Islam, and perhaps it does. But it applies equally to the Mormon religion:
Whatever it is, the Book of Mormon is not from God. It came from an Angel? But an Angel sent by whom? Not God.
The DNA evidence is just one more nail in the coffin.
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teancum79
Guest
so your back, but still won’t answer my question.
If we do believe in a different God and Christ I’m very sorry for you because the scriptures are very very plan that He is the only way to salvation. If the rude accusations conclusion jumping and general judge first and only look for faults is typical of so called Christianity you all can keep it. I’ll stick to following Christ.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
What question?
You’re right that following Jesus is the right thing to do, He is the Way and the Truth and the Light. But Mormons don’t follow Jesus, starting with the Holy Eucharist. He set forth a pattern to follow and Mormons don’t follow it. Mormons have rejected nearly every aspect of it. In so doing Mormons reject Jesus Himself.
It’s unfortunate if you find the truth to be “rude accusations” but the truth is the truth. No one is jumping to conclusions or jumping first and looking for faults. Sometimes the truth hurts, and that’s too bad, but it wouldn’t be very Christian of any of us to confirm anyone in their error. So we tell you the truth.
Bottom line ~ If you didn’t know there wasn’t something missing in Mormonism you wouldn’t be at a Catholic Forum.
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wademann
Guest
This is the non-catholic religion forum, so what are you doing here?
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hosemonkey
Guest
We really should have a “non-Christian Forum” for mormons.
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ibkc
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She’s discussing non-Catholic religions. Duh.
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why_me
Guest
It is all a matter of opinion. And all will find out the truth when they are dead. JS was either a fruad or a prophet. Most mormons would put it this way. For Mormons, he was a prophet. For those who are not mormons, he can be called a fraud. End of story.
JS accomplished much in his young life and he seemed to grow into his prophethood. He certainly was not the same man in 1830 that he was in 1844. In those fourteen years he established cities, built temples, led a growing church, taught a revolutionary form of christianity, ran for president, and was esteemed and hated. Not a bad resume for someone who did not reach the age of 40.
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why_me
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Some protestants would put catholics in such a forum.We really should have a “non-Christian Forum” for mormons.
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MelanieAnne
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Having a discussion.
I could ask the same thing ~ what are you doing here? Or did you say that just to be rude?
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ralphinal
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And Alexander the Great conquored the free world before he was 30. St. Francis started a movement in the Catholic Church that is esteemed in non-Christian circles, Protestant, and Catholic groups today before he was 30. Jesus saved the world by 33. Of these four men, two are truly worthy to be called holy.
Success at a young age does not prove anything.
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teancum79
Guest
my question was how man sins could Paul (or another apostle) be accused of before they would not be an acceptable messenger for Christ?
You are right in that it would not be Christian to confirm someone in error.
As to jumping to conclusions I can’t imagine where I’d get that idea. I make a comparison between Christ and JS and you say we think JS was Christ. I’m on this forum so there must be something wrong with my beliefs. silly me no jumping to conclusions there.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I have no idea what your question is. It does not make sense to me.
As for the conclusions you are jumping to, they are unfounded and they appear to deliberately misstate points posted elsewhere. As such, I will not distinguish them further with any reply. Victimization claims, no matter how popular in society at large, are poor substitutes for reason.
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ibkc
Guest
The apostles repented of their sins and spent the rest of their lives living humbly and spreading the Word in an extremely hostile environment, with all but one dying martyr’s deaths. Joseph Smith held his sins up as holy, developed a messianic complex, tried to establish a theocratic dictatorship and got killed in a gunbattle.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You are confusing sin with crime.
Paul was accused of one crime, following the teachings of Christ. He freely confessed to this crime and was executed, as a criminal.
Paul freely confessed his sins, some are in his writings that are found in the Bible. And he admonishes all the followers of Christ to free themselves from sin. And to confess them, in order to gain forgiveness.
Joseph Smith was accused of crimes. These crimes would fall under the general category of fraud. These crimes have nothing to do with following Christ, or being a messenger for Christ.
Smith perpetrated his sin of adultery by claiming his sins were commanded by God AND that others should follow him into this sin.
He was arrested for treason, which has nothing to do with following Christ. He was not executed for his crimes, as he was murdered before he could go to trial.
How are the two men comparable?
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hosemonkey
Guest
straight up, I have studied mormonism for many years. The thing that becomes immediately appearant is the fraud and deception upon which mormonism is based. The story reads like a boy’s novel, mystical appearances, buried treasure (plates) Mysterious guardians (salamanders) magical spectacles (decoder) Mysterious arcane documents (Book of Abraham) On and on and on. I would be willing to bet that Joseph Smith just could not wait to find out what he was going to invent in the next chapter! In my humble opinion, mormonism would have been just a blip on the American loony religion scene but for two factors. Firstly, Joseph smith provided the cult with a perfect martyr when he got himself shot in the Carthage jail. The second factor was the exodus to Utah where the shrewd successor to JS, Brigham Young,was able to “educate” a captive population to his will. (Witness Mountain Meadows) That fortress mentality exists to this day. Typical of this kind of thinking is the statement by one poster "Really don’t care if the BOM is true or not, I’m going to belive it anyhow. “Do not confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.”
Many so-called TBMs no longer believe in mormonism, but are trapped in the system by family, jobs, lifestyle etc. They cannot bear to lose the support system. Too bad.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
teancum79,
I have to comment – your willingness to go thorough the garbage on a forum is quite respectable. wow.
Getting back to where we left off, (the metal lettering), I looked around to see a bit about that in the 17-1800s and have some thoughts that you might have comments on:
Kind of in a strange repeat of history, copper etchings were available at the time – sometimes as “art” and sometimes as part of various printing press arrangements – eg: like wood cuttings – both of which were novelty items in the 17-1800’s. The printing press technology was a positive or “raised” letters to take ink – but the art or novelty item most people would see are often negative images inscribed into the metal. This process was often used at the time by manufacturers of novelty equipmenty – for example I have a stage coach telescope which is period and which has the company name and the owner’s name inscribed in it. Although this particular item was early pony express era (about 20 years after JS’s time – the company had been manufacturing the scope for some years prior to that. Foundaries apparently, often marked metal casting serial numbers (like the libery bell’s liberty in metal also) on every expensive item.
From the previous conversations, I gather that the plates being spoken of are not just a “prophecy” but are an actual artifact of some kind. So, there are several bolstering or negative proofs which could be drawn from an actual analysis of the material – for example the “shroud of turin” which is seen primarily as an object of inspiriation for Catholics has also been long held by many to actually “be” the burial cloth of Jesus. It has been subjected to various tests over the year which seemed to disprove it at first – but then later (secular non catholic sources) proved that the original evidence actually bolsters it’s claims. Ultimately pollens indiginous to the holy land were found on it – which are found no where else and pin the date down to Jesus’ time. Of course it might be another Jew’s burial cloth – but it is DEFINITELY a period and location cloth.
The material the plates are actually made of would be quite an indicator of when and where the plates were made – as metals contain impurities based on where the metal was mined from. If they were a fake of some kind, the odds are based on the technology avalable in the 1700-1800’s that the metal would be an acid etchable material – rather than a pure charcoal fire refined material like the ancients hammered. If so, the odds of them being (say) pure gold are negligable – for gold is not easily etched by acids and I doubt JS was rich at the time this all began. Is any of this information available on the plates – eg: what are they really made of under chemical analysis? For that would be strong supporting or detracting evidence. The other question is how heavy are they – as the gold designs of the ancients were temple adornments not meant to be carried around so weight was not a problem.
I have to comment – your willingness to go thorough the garbage on a forum is quite respectable. wow.
Getting back to where we left off, (the metal lettering), I looked around to see a bit about that in the 17-1800s and have some thoughts that you might have comments on:
Kind of in a strange repeat of history, copper etchings were available at the time – sometimes as “art” and sometimes as part of various printing press arrangements – eg: like wood cuttings – both of which were novelty items in the 17-1800’s. The printing press technology was a positive or “raised” letters to take ink – but the art or novelty item most people would see are often negative images inscribed into the metal. This process was often used at the time by manufacturers of novelty equipmenty – for example I have a stage coach telescope which is period and which has the company name and the owner’s name inscribed in it. Although this particular item was early pony express era (about 20 years after JS’s time – the company had been manufacturing the scope for some years prior to that. Foundaries apparently, often marked metal casting serial numbers (like the libery bell’s liberty in metal also) on every expensive item.
From the previous conversations, I gather that the plates being spoken of are not just a “prophecy” but are an actual artifact of some kind. So, there are several bolstering or negative proofs which could be drawn from an actual analysis of the material – for example the “shroud of turin” which is seen primarily as an object of inspiriation for Catholics has also been long held by many to actually “be” the burial cloth of Jesus. It has been subjected to various tests over the year which seemed to disprove it at first – but then later (secular non catholic sources) proved that the original evidence actually bolsters it’s claims. Ultimately pollens indiginous to the holy land were found on it – which are found no where else and pin the date down to Jesus’ time. Of course it might be another Jew’s burial cloth – but it is DEFINITELY a period and location cloth.
The material the plates are actually made of would be quite an indicator of when and where the plates were made – as metals contain impurities based on where the metal was mined from. If they were a fake of some kind, the odds are based on the technology avalable in the 1700-1800’s that the metal would be an acid etchable material – rather than a pure charcoal fire refined material like the ancients hammered. If so, the odds of them being (say) pure gold are negligable – for gold is not easily etched by acids and I doubt JS was rich at the time this all began. Is any of this information available on the plates – eg: what are they really made of under chemical analysis? For that would be strong supporting or detracting evidence. The other question is how heavy are they – as the gold designs of the ancients were temple adornments not meant to be carried around so weight was not a problem.
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Rachel_Malloy
Guest
This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who have participated.
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