DNA Vs Mormonism

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I found this video on youtube addressing the negative results in regards of finding Jewish DNA within the indiginous South American peoples. Several Mormon scientists are interviewed. It’s kinda long 49 min. I would be interested in how other Mormon’s are dealing with the issue it is presenting.

YouTube - DNA vs. The Book of Mormon
 
Last I checked they did not find a genetic marker. Much like asking God to make a personal appearance if he does you really have something, but if not you have not proved anything. While some LDS base their beliefs on scientific evidence most have a knowledge that comes from the Holy Ghost. Such are not troubled by trivial science anymore than those who believe in the creation are bothered by a pro Darwin study.
 
DNA is cool stuff. We are however a far cry from fully understanding it. Many people have been trying to make a huge deal out of the non presence of a genetic marker in Native Americans that is common in Jews. That matters little.
 
teancum79 said:
DNA is cool stuff. We are however a far cry from fully understanding it. Many people have been trying to make a huge deal out of the non presence of a genetic marker in Native Americans that is common in Jews. That matters little.
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Whaaa? If you’re trying to claim that Native Americans are actually Israelites (that is, of relatively recent Middle Eastern extraction) then DNA evidence pointing to something else makes a gigantic difference - enough to destroy the original theory. DNA tracing is about as accurate as it gets.
 
keep in mind what is being looked at. We find a genetic marker that is common in people in the Middle East now. We look to see if people in the Americas have the same thing. As far as LDS people are concerned the migrations happened about 600 BC thats awhile back.

Again as I said if the marker was there we would really have something, but its not being there does not tell us much.

2,600 years of human of human history can really do a lot. It is not like we have studied the process of Human DNA changes for hundreds of years yet. Its still a fairly new science and like all sciences I know subject to error and under a constant process of refinement.
 
It was a new science. It is pretty good at tracking ancient migrations now. There has never been a shred of evidence of Jewish migration to the new world and now we know that there are no decscendants of Jewish blood in the indigenous people.
 
we now pretty much know not only where the native americans originated from but when and the general paths of the various waves of migration. People who think the holy ghost is testifying to the truth of a book supposedly written by a man gazing into a “peep stone” in a hat are being deceived.
 
teancum79 said:
keep in mind what is being looked at. We find a genetic marker that is common in people in the Middle East now. We look to see if people in the Americas have the same thing. As far as LDS people are concerned the migrations happened about 600 BC thats awhile back.
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How do you propose these migrations took place, and not leave any trace in the DNA record?
 
teancum79 said:
Last I checked they did not find a genetic marker. Much like asking God to make a personal appearance if he does you really have something, but if not you have not proved anything. While some LDS base their beliefs on scientific evidence most have a knowledge that comes from the Holy Ghost. Such are not troubled by trivial science anymore than those who believe in the creation are bothered by a pro Darwin study.
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Hello Teancum, are you saying that some future revelation either scientific or divine will discredit the scientific conclusions drawn from the current evidence?
 
pnewton said:
It was a new science. It is pretty good at tracking ancient migrations now. There has never been a shred of evidence of Jewish migration to the new world and now we know that there are no decscendants of Jewish blood in the indigenous people.
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Wow ever check the pupul Vuh? Ever noticed the Hebrew like writings found in the Americas? I’m assuming not.

Anyhow we don’t know that there are not Jewish decedents. We just don’t have conclusive proof that they are.

These two concepts are very far apart.
 
Benadam said:
Hello Teancum, are you saying that some future revelation either scientific or divine will discredit the scientific conclusions drawn from the current evidence?
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It is very likely. We are still trying to figure out how gravity works and we’ve had a lot more practice with it. DNA is a very complex collection of tiny bits of stuff. To assume that looking at it can tell us 100% for sure where everyone came from without a possibility of being wrong is absurd.

I have a hard time believing that we have enough DNA evidence to tell us who had kids with who when and where the whole history of the world over. Not buying that one. I’m not discounting the possibility to learn things from DNA, but to assume that we now know it all is nuts.
 
teancum79 said:
It is very likely. We are still trying to figure out how gravity works and we’ve had a lot more practice with it. DNA is a very complex collection of tiny bits of stuff. To assume that looking at it can tell us 100% for sure where everyone came from without a possibility of being wrong is absurd.

I have a hard time believing that we have enough DNA evidence to tell us who had kids with who when and where the whole history of the world over. Not buying that one. I’m not discounting the possibility to learn things from DNA, but to assume that we now know it all is nuts.
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There was a Mormon anthropologist and scholar interviewed in the video who said there wasn’t ‘any’ evidence within any discipline of science validating the Book of Mormon. At the same time these disciplines are validating history contrary to the Book of Mormon. Mormon scientists it seems aren’t finding a reason to believe. This would be a small trial if they weren’t finding reason’s to not believe I think.

A friend had asked me a few weeks ago what I would do if some conclusive evidence was ever found that threatened my beliefs, I couldn’t think of what it could be. Neither could he. Then I came across this video and thought I would ask. Thank you for responding teancum.
 
teancum79 said:
It is very likely. We are still trying to figure out how gravity works and we’ve had a lot more practice with it. DNA is a very complex collection of tiny bits of stuff. To assume that looking at it can tell us 100% for sure where everyone came from without a possibility of being wrong is absurd.

I have a hard time believing that we have enough DNA evidence to tell us who had kids with who when and where the whole history of the world over. Not buying that one. I’m not discounting the possibility to learn things from DNA, but to assume that we now know it all is nuts.
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Jeez, you’re sweating the lack of evidence for Lehi’s transatlantic crossing?

You shouldn’t worry so much about it. Lehi and Nephi were fabrications…but so were most of the other characters in the original bible. There were a few (I think Caesar Augustus is in there) that actually did exist in the real world, but those are simply added in to make the story seem realistic.

Abraham, Noah, Lot, Job, Moses, Jesus…Nephi, Korihor, King Noah, Laban… no serious scholar would ever do much more than laugh or scoff at the idea that any of these people ever existed. Christians can laugh at our book…I laugh at theirs just as heartily.
 
teancum79 said:
keep in mind what is being looked at. We find a genetic marker that is common in people in the Middle East now. We look to see if people in the Americas have the same thing. As far as LDS people are concerned the migrations happened about 600 BC thats awhile back.

Again as I said if the marker was there we would really have something, but its not being there does not tell us much.

2,600 years of human of human history can really do a lot. It is not like we have studied the process of Human DNA changes for hundreds of years yet. Its still a fairly new science and like all sciences I know subject to error and under a constant process of refinement.
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I seem to recall something about identifying Jewish dna in an African group and being able to estimate it’s introduction to between 2 and 3 thousand years ago. 2,600 hundred years seems like along time in human history, our life now is totally different than our ancestors 2,600 years ago (at least in industrialized nations). DNA is not like human communication technology it doesn’t change dramatically in 150 years.

As far as I’m concerned it’s not being there speaks volumes.
 
zaffiroborant said:
I seem to recall something about identifying Jewish dna in an African group and being able to estimate it’s introduction to between 2 and 3 thousand years ago. 2,600 hundred years seems like along time in human history, our life now is totally different than our ancestors 2,600 years ago (at least in industrialized nations). DNA is not like human communication technology it doesn’t change dramatically in 150 years.

As far as I’m concerned it’s not being there speaks volumes.
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Yes, that’s right, zaffiroborant. The Lemba of Africa have been linked by both tradition, customs and DNA to the Jewish people:

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

According to the oral history of the Lemba, their ancestors were Jews who left Judea about 2,500 years ago.

From Wikipedia:

“According to recent genetic research, a substantial number of Lemba men carry a particular polymorphism on the Y chromosome known as the Cohen modal haplotype, which is indicative of Y-DNA Haplogroup J found amongst some Jews, and in other populations across the Middle East.
One particular sub-clan within the Lemba, the Buba clan, is considered by the Lemba to be their priestly clan, while among Jews, the Kohanim are the priestly clan. From a small sample of the Buba, fifty-two percent of males were found to carry the Cohen modal haplotype. Among Jews the marker is also most prevalent among Jewish Kohanim, or priests.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba#DNA_testing
 
teancum79 said:
Last I checked they did not find a genetic marker. Much like asking God to make a personal appearance if he does you really have something, but if not you have not proved anything. While some LDS base their beliefs on scientific evidence most have a knowledge that comes from the Holy Ghost. Such are not troubled by trivial science anymore than those who believe in the creation are bothered by a pro Darwin study.
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Creation doesn’t disprove evolution, and evolution doesn’t disprove creation.

But no Jewish blood does disprove their theory.
 
zerinus said:
Already addressed in this post:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/08/dna-evidence-and-book-of-mormon.html

zerinus
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No you didnt.

Most of it was the usual misdirection stuff that you have done before. Other parts are based on a book that you cant even validate (the Book of Mormon), which has an extremly questionable origin and should rightfully be regarded as a work of fiction.

The part about God changing the DNA of the Lamanites was interesting.

If you believe the BoM, God can change a races DNA. But God appears to have no idea about smaller things like grammar, spelling, human languages (much interperating them) which required His book (the BoM) to have multiple editions and thousands of corrections.

Of course there is also the point that there are no original texts that we can verify the BoM translations against, although that could arguably be put down to a question of faith, but that also means that there was no original source to use for comparisons when corrections were done to the BoM. Which raises questions about how it could actually be corrected at all!!!

Even the part in the Book of Mormon about the Lamanites being the principal ancestors of modern American Indians is a correction, it used to be that they were the sole ancestors of modern American Indians.

I am sorry, but you are going to have to do better with your DNA argument (especally with your dismissal of critics not being scientists, where exactly did they get this lack of DNA evidence from?). Since it is quite apparent that the BoM is at best an unreliable source (an observation that you and other LDS have not been able to disprove), it cant be used as a source to discredit the lack of DNA issue (or any other LDS issue really).
 
Teancumseh 😃 :

What if----------------------------

DNA were to be found among Native Americans from the NE part of North America that links some of their ancestry to the Europeans that once settled on Greenland? The general BOM story lines up remarkably well with that established history.

Chronological Markers in the Book of Mormon Compared to Outside Events

AD 600 Voyage of St. Brendan

980 Landing on Greenland Eric the Red and Lief Ericson I Nephi

1052 Bishop Appointed Sacramentality arrives in the New World Jesus Chronology Begins (3 Nephi)

1421 Left Greenland Alma 63 (also Judges 38) “Hagoth” of Mormon 4 (363 JC)

1472 Moroni 9-10 (420 JC) “Chaos”

1492 Columbus lands

Red indicates events occurring within the Book of Mormon
Green indicates events documented elsewhere

The core document, once one shaves away the other plaigirisms, appears to have been an authentic account of pre-Columbian America. How, I don’t know. :coffeeread: :amen:
 
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