DNA Vs Mormonism

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Wow ever check the pupul Vuh? Ever noticed the Hebrew like writings found in the Americas? I’m assuming not.

Anyhow we don’t know that there are not Jewish decedents. We just don’t have conclusive proof that they are.

These two concepts are very far apart.
yes many of us have studied the popul vu. “hebrew like” writings are in the eye of the beholder it seems. despite faith promoting rumors in LDS circles there are no pre-columbian writings of jewish or egyptian origin. what is of greater significance is that we DO find evidence of asian origin. we find it genetically and even culturally and linguistically. we pretty much KNOW who came when and from where.
 
I don’t understand why all the discussion.

I am sympathetic to mormon beliefs (I am happily married to one–a mormon with beliefs)…that doesn’t mean I agree but am tolerant. Now with that being said…this topic is like many things regarding mormon teaching. If it shows an untruth they either deny it or they ignore it.

Many examples can be used…the most obvious would be the Egypian funeral scroll vs the Book of Abraham. Or the prophet Brigham Youngs talks about Adam being God and choosing one of his wifes to come to Earth to populate it.

Please know that I don’t write these things to inflame or irritate the mormons out here. I just think somethings are so obvious that they bear repeating…
 
Creation doesn’t disprove evolution, and evolution doesn’t disprove creation.

But no Jewish blood does disprove their theory.
How it was just stated that most Jewish men have the particular marker. If Lehi did not have it (carried on the Y) and Ishmael did not have it. It would not have made it with the group.

Am I to understand that a DNA item that most people have is imposable to have missed 2 guys and their families? And that’s supposed to be scientific?

I’m all for religious belief folks, but I don’t believe in bad science
 
yes many of us have studied the popul vu. “hebrew like” writings are in the eye of the beholder it seems. despite faith promoting rumors in LDS circles there are no pre-columbian writings of jewish or egyptian origin. what is of greater significance is that we DO find evidence of asian origin. we find it genetically and even culturally and linguistically. we pretty much KNOW who came when and from where.
Well as you say eye of the beholder you can not see as much (or more) when you close your eyes than someone can try to make appear. As far as some people coming for Asia the BoM has a recored of that (book of Ether)
 
I don’t understand why all the discussion.

I am sympathetic to mormon beliefs (I am happily married to one–a mormon with beliefs)…that doesn’t mean I agree but am tolerant. Now with that being said…this topic is like many things regarding mormon teaching. If it shows an untruth they either deny it or they ignore it.

Many examples can be used…the most obvious would be the Egypian funeral scroll vs the Book of Abraham. Or the prophet Brigham Youngs talks about Adam being God and choosing one of his wifes to come to Earth to populate it.

Please know that I don’t write these things to inflame or irritate the mormons out here. I just think somethings are so obvious that they bear repeating…
Could we leave the fictions is not taught in our church crude for another time?
 
Teancumseh 😃 :

What if----------------------------

DNA were to be found among Native Americans from the NE part of North America that links some of their ancestry to the Europeans that once settled on Greenland? The general BOM story lines up remarkably well with that established history.

Chronological Markers in the Book of Mormon Compared to Outside Events

AD 600 Voyage of St. Brendan


*980 *Landing on Greenland Eric the Red and Lief Ericson I Nephi

*1052 *Bishop Appointed Sacramentality arrives in the New World Jesus Chronology Begins (3 Nephi)

*1421 *Left Greenland Alma 63 (also Judges 38) “Hagoth” of Mormon 4 (363 JC)

*1472 *Moroni 9-10 (420 JC) “Chaos”

*1492 *Columbus lands

Red indicates events occurring within the Book of Mormon
*Green *indicates events documented elsewhere

The core document, once one shaves away the other plaigirisms, appears to have been an authentic account of pre-Columbian America. How, I don’t know. :coffeeread: :amen:
Well for one you’d have to figure out the “Great White God” story got all around the Islands before Cook sailed. Not to mention the various forms of it scattered all over the Americas.

Also If Hagoth was heading back to Greenland Why to the natives of New Zealand’s oral history say they came Central America?

Just a few thoughts.
 
I got the information about the funeral/burial papyrus from the news…the Adam God theory from your very own Journal of Discourses. Here is the quote:

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER andour GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good forman; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, theFather had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by theHoly Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest ofthe sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession.I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the wholetruth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitiousand over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era;and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming" great is the mystery of godliness," and tell nothing.

This is taken from journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-10.html

There is also discussion about it on fairlds.org/apol/ai002.html

Which as far as I am concerned only proves my point…

What is fiction?
 
How it was just stated that most Jewish men have the particular marker. If Lehi did not have it (carried on the Y) and Ishmael did not have it. It would not have made it with the group.

Am I to understand that a DNA item that most people have is imposable to have missed 2 guys and their families? And that’s supposed to be scientific?

I’m all for religious belief folks, but I don’t believe in bad science
You are right in that one can never disprove a negative. Likewise one can never disprove that aliens landed and colonized the new world. However, when one comes up with a fanciful tale like aliens or the book of Mormon, there should be some acknowledgment to the burden of proof shifting to the new idea.
 
Well for one you’d have to figure out the “Great White God” story got all around the Islands before Cook sailed. Not to mention the various forms of it scattered all over the Americas.

Also If Hagoth was heading back to Greenland Why to the natives of New Zealand’s oral history say they came Central America?

Just a few thoughts.
Thank you for your thoughts.

Just that the Gospel was preached throughout most of the world, even though the Church’s official Presence didn’t reach many areas.

Hagoth and his people, according to a Native legend, left for the “mythical” city of Kobenhoben. We know it as Copenhaven. 🙂

Pacific Islanders were legendary for their seafaring skills. What is new about that?

Thank you again. 😉
 
Well as you say eye of the beholder you can not see as much (or more) when you close your eyes than someone can try to make appear. As far as some people coming for Asia the BoM has a recored of that (book of Ether)
so you would have us believe that jaredites (who died out leaving no genetic impact on the BoM peoples) came from mongolia and siberia over the bering strait and on down? I’d like to see the reasoning behind that.
 
Ether seems to be Irish in origin. They may have assimilated freely with Natives, becoming “Lamanites”. That is why I include the Voyage of St. Brendan the Navigator.
 
Of course, faith must play a role in all this. Lets say that DNA was proving the book of mormon true. Where would all the catholics on this board be? Most likely joining the lds faith. Or at least questioning its truth claims in a more positive fashion.

Science will never prove the existence of god. DNA is no exception to the rule. We are on this earth to live by faith, not science.

But lets face it, if DNA was at this moment in agreement with the book of mormon many of the catholics and other christians would be flocking to the lds faith. And yet, not because of faith but because of scientific evidence. God’s plan will not be subverted by science whether as proof in god or just the opposite.
 
Did I miss something? Did teancum hold that the DNA proves nothing but if it had supported the BoM, it would have been important scientifically?

It does not work both ways, The test is either valid or invalid. DNA testing, thus far, has not been shown to be problematic. If a resonable person can accept it for a murder or rape case, where lives are on the line, why not for this?

Now, faith is another matter. Just say that no matter what the evidence is, you hold to your faith. That is fair.
 
Did I miss something? Did teancum hold that the DNA proves nothing but if it had supported the BoM, it would have been important scientifically?

It does not work both ways, The test is either valid or invalid. DNA testing, thus far, has not been shown to be problematic. If a resonable person can accept it for a murder or rape case, where lives are on the line, why not for this?

Now, faith is another matter. Just say that no matter what the evidence is, you hold to your faith. That is fair.
I really hate to be rude, but um hello?
There is a genetic marker that is often passed down. If people in place one have it and people in place two have it. We have reason to believe they are related.

If the marker was found it would be evidence that there is a relationship. Not finding the marker means that we don’t have that evidence, but given the very real possibility that the original people leaving the Middle East may have not had the marker it’s not being in the New world does not tell us that these people did not come from the Middle East.
 
so you would have us believe that jaredites (who died out leaving no genetic impact on the BoM peoples) came from mongolia and siberia over the bering strait and on down? I’d like to see the reasoning behind that.
They came by boat. All persons known to be part of that civilization died out, but it’s possible that some people packed up and took of oh say a few hundred years before the big kill everybody war and where so separated that they where not involved in the fight at all and they could have latter met with the new comers.
 
I really hate to be rude, but um hello?
There is a genetic marker that is often passed down. If people in place one have it and people in place two have it. We have reason to believe they are related.

If the marker was found it would be evidence that there is a relationship. Not finding the marker means that we don’t have that evidence, but given the very real possibility that the original people leaving the Middle East may have not had the marker it’s not being in the New world does not tell us that these people did not come from the Middle East.
If Native Americans came from the Middle East, traces of Hebraic or Semitic DNA would be present among them. If Hebraic and Semitic DNA is not present in Native American populations, then it’s pretty conclusive that they didn’t come from the Middle East. The example of the Lemba people was brought up earlier in the thread. This is a population in Africa which is descended from Jews who left the Middle East a very long time ago. Not only is the proof of their origins retained in their DNA, they also retained cultural practices - something else totally missing from Native Americans.
 
If Native Americans came from the Middle East, traces of Hebraic or Semitic DNA would be present among them. If Hebraic and Semitic DNA is not present in Native American populations, then it’s pretty conclusive that they didn’t come from the Middle East. The example of the Lemba people was brought up earlier in the thread. This is a population in Africa which is descended from Jews who left the Middle East a very long time ago. Not only is the proof of their origins retained in their DNA, they also retained cultural practices - something else totally missing from Native Americans.
The practices are not totally missing and for hopefully the last time. I don’t see how everyone can miss this.

ONLY IF THE GUYS WHO CAME TO THE AMERICAS HAD THE MARKER(S) COULD THE MARKER(S) NOW BE FOUND.

The line of reasoning I keep hearing runs like this. There is a flu epidemic in a city therefor everyone in the city must have the flu. Its not logically sound.:confused:
 
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