DNA Vs Mormonism

[MomblessedX3]

I’m not Denying DNA I’m questioning the assumptions that are not consistent with the principles of good research. And again we here there is no evidence. has anyone even bother to look at the info I posted?

Teacum–
I have been following this thread very closely.I have checked out everything you have posted and I fail to see, in regards to the DNA research, where the principles of good research weren’t followed.

Will you please explain?

 

[teancum79]

Teacum–
I have been following this thread very closely.I have checked out everything you have posted and I fail to see, in regards to the DNA research, where the principles of good research weren’t followed.

Will you please explain?

Sure. DNA markers are slight changes in DNA that are passed down I believe that markers on the Y chromosome are all the rage right now. Many here have stated that if a group does not now have a marker that another group has they must not be related. This however is inaccurate because not everyone has particular marker and in theory a mutation that made a marker could change back.

More to the point however is there is no way to confirm the history mapping being done. If we could track for oh say a few sundered years the progress of markers and be sure they work like we think they do we could be onto something, but this has not been done.

It is only in buying into assumptions about DNA markers that the ideas are presented that we have this evidence. You may recall a guy who thought he had taught a house to do math. The horse had learned to tap his foot while people looked down, but had not learned any math. While I don’t think the DNA people are that careless I’m not seeing outside evidence to support their assumptions and conclusions in a way that makes it much more than personal belief.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sure. DNA markers are slight changes in DNA that are passed down I believe that markers on the Y chromosome are all the rage right now. Many here have stated that if a group does not now have a marker that another group has they must not be related. This however is inaccurate because not everyone has particular marker and in theory a mutation that made a marker could change back.

More to the point however is there is no way to confirm the history mapping being done. If we could track for oh say a few sundered years the progress of markers and be sure they work like we think they do we could be onto something, but this has not been done.

It is only in buying into assumptions about DNA markers that the ideas are presented that we have this evidence. You may recall a guy who thought he had taught a house to do math. The horse had learned to tap his foot while people looked down, but had not learned any math. While I don’t think the DNA people are that careless I’m not seeing outside evidence to support their assumptions and conclusions in a way that makes it much more than personal belief.

You’re talking about mitochondrial (sp?) DNA. And it is valid for tracing back through either the male or female line (different markers for each). By this method they have confirmed, for example, the priestly line of Jews ~ the DNA supports the historical tradition.

This form of DNA is far more reliable than mere “belief”. That it represents a scientific achievement that the vast majority of the populace doesn’t understand does not transform it into something less reliable. It is solid enough to be used as evidence in court ~ it was used to convict Scott Peterson of the murder of his wife Lacey, for example. If the science wasn’t there, it wouldn’t be admissible. In fact when these things are introduced, the science is explained in excruciating detail.

The studies that have already been done on this form of DNA have confirmed migration patterns across the world and have blown the Book of Mormon story completely out of the water. It is 100% a “story”, there is no basis in fact. That’s just reality. It may be a difficult reality for the LDS church & its members to deal with, but those are the unassailable facts.

But since, as you’ve already stated, de-legitimizing the Book of Mormon wouldn’t affect your faith, it’s really not a problem for you. It might be for others.

 

[PaulDupre]

teancum,
You have obviously not seen the DNA research about Native American origins. The Y chromosome marker is not the only factor. mtDNA studies are far more dispositive, and point definitely to the east-Asian origin of the Amerindians.

From the website where you can see the video:

Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA testing are effective means of determining the ancestries and relatedness of people and people groups. DNA tests have been performed on thousands of individuals from scores of Native American tribes, from Alaska to the tip of South America. The results of the test show that the overwhelming majority (96.4%) of DNA originated in northeastern and north-central Asia, which essentially corroborates what had an already become a widespread consensus among archaeologists and anthropologists of varying disciplines.

The post-Colonial era intermarriage easily accounts for the remaining 3.6% discrepancy. In addition, the testing of the DNA in the pre-Columbian skeletal remains shows a 100% correlation with DNA from Northeastern and Central Asia. No indication of Hebrew ancestry has been found in the DNA of Native Americans.

In other parts of the world, DNA has been used to positively identify people groups who do have a clear genetic link to Israel from ancient times. This shows that DNA can be used to clearly show a genetic link (or lack thereof) between people groups. If Native Americans really were descended from Israelites, then their DNA would back up that claim.

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

teancum, the only plausible way that the DNA evidence against the BoM is meaningless, is if you believe the peoples described in the BoM were completely isolated and never produced children with other populations.

or

There are few descendants of the BoM people.

Given the BoM itself, which describes large, non-isolated people and the fact that until the DNA evidence against the BoM came to light, the Mormon church taught, JS and other Mormon prophets wrote, that every, single Native Amerian AND Pacific Islander were descendants of BoM peoples.

Your church takes the DNA evidence as real, conclusive, and valid, otherwise, why else would they be back peddling on something they have taught as FACT, not spiritual promptings?

 

[PaulDupre]

That’s just plain wrong. It’s an interpretation of the text but a wrong one.

The reference to the “land” is generally believed to refer to the specific area where Lehi’s people landed (and we don’t even know where that was!).

To take that to mean all of North and South America is a pretty wild stretch and doesn’t match most current LDS scholarship I’ve read.

Are you trying to tell me that in this quote:

2 Nephi 1:9: "Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. "

…that “this land” means a small area of land where the millions of Nephites and Lamanites built cities and highways connecting them, waged huge wars wherein millions of men died, hosted a visit from Jesus and where all the white people were destroyed?

And that all of the Amerindians from Siberia roaming the continents North and South never ran across the people and highways and concrete cities of these highly technological chariot-riding silk-and-steel-making warring Hebrew nations?

For a thousand years?

Does that sound reasonable to you? Do you think that’s how reality really works?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Maybe it works if all evidence of their existence was vaporized, along with all remaining members of the Lamanite and Nephite groups. Of course this would have to be done in such a way that no trace was left behind.

I’m trying to think of what would do that. A Romulan distruptor? A simple UFP phaser? Some sort of Cylon device? Do you suppose the Mormon God provided something high tech that eliminated all traces of the Lamanites & Nephites? Oh, but wait, another poster said God changed all their DNA, so I guess they could have all just blended in. That way they only have to vaporize the cities…

 

[PaulDupre]

Maybe it works if all evidence of their existence was vaporized, along with all remaining members of the Lamanite and Nephite groups. Of course this would have to be done in such a way that no trace was left behind.

I’m trying to think of what would do that. A Romulan distruptor? A simple UFP phaser? Some sort of Cylon device? Do you suppose the Mormon God provided something high tech that eliminated all traces of the Lamanites & Nephites? Oh, but wait, another poster said God changed all their DNA, so I guess they could have all just blended in. That way they only have to vaporize the cities…

They would also need to vaporize the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and the teachings of Joseph Smith and all the other LDS prophets, all of which deny the LGT and teach that the Nephites and Lamanites covered all of at least the North American continent.

The Mormons who still believe in the Book of Mormon don’t know their scriptures or their prophetic history.

Paul

 

[teancum79]

I’ve yet to see any evidence that DNA can tell you 100% who lived when and where in the past. Baring something to support it beyond “it just is”.

As far as the accusation that we don’t know our history. I do know my history. I know how I’ve been able to get the Book of Mormon the Bible the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. I am very thankful that a loving living God has not ceased to speak to man.And for that matter parents and teachers who taught me to think for myself and not jump on every band wagon of popular thought.

 

[majick275]

I’ve yet to see any evidence that DNA can tell you 100% who lived when and where in the past. Baring something to support it beyond “it just is”.

As far as the accusation that we don’t know our history. I do know my history. I know how I’ve been able to get the Book of Mormon the Bible the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. I am very thankful that a loving living God has not ceased to speak to man.And for that matter parents and teachers who taught me to think for myself and not jump on every band wagon of popular thought.

except for the 1800 years between the apostles and joseph smith…

I am thankful that the ONE and ONLY God never abandoned us thus making any “restoration” unnecessary.

 

[teancum79]

It was more like 1700, but anyways If the catholic church had the same doctrines that Christs did in the Bible I’d find your claim to be most compelling.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’ve yet to see any evidence that DNA can tell you 100% who lived when and where in the past.

Yes, in fact it can. People leave remains. Remains contain DNA. That DNA can be identified and compared with various other populations - 100%. If you don’t know that then you don’t know anything about the science of DNA.

And for that matter parents and teachers who taught me to think for myself and not jump on every band wagon of popular thought.

The well-established science of DNA is just a band wagon of popular thought?? Please, read a book, watch the science channel, anything - just learn something about the science and the 30-year+ studies of ancient and modern Amerindian and Siberian DNA, please! You’re living in an ignorant cult fantasy world.

 

[majick275]

It was more like 1700, but anyways If the catholic church had the same doctrines that Christs did in the Bible I’d find your claim to be most compelling.

close enough. the catholic church assembled the bible, preserved it and preached from it always and forever. of course our teachings are in harmony with it. this is far different than claiming a “restoration” while introducing never before seen teachings and practices that directly contradict not only the bible but even it’s own “scriptures”.

 

[Benadam]

It was more like 1700, but anyways If the catholic church had the same doctrines that Christs did in the Bible I’d find your claim to be most compelling.

Teancum, doesn’t the mormon church claim that the bible is a corrupt version of the Gospel?

 

[Eden]

It was more like 1700, but anyways If the catholic church had the same doctrines that Christs did in the Bible I’d find your claim to be most compelling.

Can you name a teaching in the Catholic faith that is contradictory to the Bible?

 

[Benadam]

My feeling is that Mormons simply can’t deal with reality when it comes to the DNA issue. They know it blows their whole religion out of the water. All they can do is make excuses about why the DNA studies don’t prove anything. They don’t want to accept the obvious because their whole world view would fall apart.

I would think there would be a few who are reconciling that world view with the DNA evidence like in the video. I wouldn’t expect very many mormon’s to be doing that at the level the mormon scientists were but I would expect many to have a grasp of the kind of certainty this field of research has achieved and to be seeking resolution in the degree they do grasp it.

 

[LaMar]

Yes, in fact it can. People leave remains. Remains contain DNA. That DNA can be identified and compared with various other populations - 100%. If you don’t know that then you don’t know anything about the science of DNA.

The well-established science of DNA is just a band wagon of popular thought?? Please, read a book, watch the science channel, anything - just learn something about the science and the 30-year+ studies of ancient and modern Amerindian and Siberian DNA, please! You’re living in an ignorant cult fantasy world.

I haven’t seen any scientific or historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, nor of Padre Pio’s “miraculous” bloody stigmata, of the fraudulent shroud of turin, of Mary’s appearance in Medjugorje, nor a thousand other things which Roman Catholics hang on to.

One thing that this forum has taught me is that the psychopathology of Catholicism is precisely similar to the Mormon psychopathology. If you’re calling Mormonism a cult, you’re indicting yourself. All Catholics can do is vilify and spew filth toward anyone who doesn’t believe as they do. This thread is a good example of it. Pretty much the same looney behavior I witnessed as a kid in Utah.

Teancum has his fairy tales, you have yours. If Catholics or Mormons were actually content with their fairy tales, they wouldn’t try so hard to force them on others. People who are happy and at peace don’t care what others believe. Both Catholics and Mormons seem to cultivate a psychopathological personality, and both attract converts who are deeply disturbed and psychologically damaged at a fundamental level.

Deep down, the true believers in both camps know they’re full of ****, and that’s why they squeal so loudly when their beliefs are deconstructed.

 

[LaMar]

LaMar can be ignored as far as “what scholars believe” goes. He has been unable to produce any evidence that scholars think the Bible is a fraudulent document, but he persists in piping up with this line anyway. Responding to him only reinforces, in his mind, his own credibility.

Love the fact that you’re bugging your husband to convert, kooky. That’d explain why you can be found posting passive-aggressive nonsense here at all hours of the day and night, seven days per week. LOLOLOLOLOL!

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’m not a moderator, but I’d still like to see some semblance of charitable behavior return to this thread.

 

[LaMar]

I’m not a moderator, but I’d still like to see some semblance of charitable behavior return to this thread.

Really? Here’s how you described me earlier:

a cover for intellectual laziness, ignorance and self-absorption occasionally bordering on narcissism. And the saddest thing is that they are all too often the most unhappy people around. If there’s something to be said for atheism, I’ve yet to see an concrete example.

Nice to see such a shining example of “charitable behavior”. LOL!

You’ll note that I never treated you disrespectfully. Only now that I pay back just a tiny bit of the 'tude that you’ve already vomited up do you start whining. Another similarity between Catholicism and Mormonism. Both cults hold their fairy tales to be above rational inquiry, and cult members stoop to personalizing things whenever rational people don’t grovel before their silly beliefs.