DNA Vs Mormonism

[MelanieAnne]

OH-- yeah, I have read that they tend to go overboard with jello donations to covered-dish suppers. It is quite cheap compared to the tithes they give-- gotta cut corners somewhere.

Oh, yes, you did make reference to puns.

This is SO OFF TOPIC, but anyway…

Do you guys know that bringing Jello to gatherings of any kind was once-upon-a-time a way of showing off that you had a refrigerator at home? So it has gone from a way of showing off how rich you were to the cheap dish.

 

[zaffiroborant]

LOL. Did you mean this to be a pun on the Mormon cultural affinity for jello?

Their beliefs are like jello-- suitable for reshaping to fit the situation. Someone here has said “Talking with them is like trying to pin jello to a wall.”

I was alluding to both the lime jello and nailing it to a wall. Sorry for derailing, sometimes the smart aleck in me gets out.

 

[Jerusha]

I especially like the one with grated carrots and crushed pineapple.

 

[MelanieAnne]

NO LIME JELLO!

 

[xixxvmcm85]

There are no Jewish haplotypes found in any Native American populations found to date.

There. Now we’re back on topic

 

[teancum79]

teancum, human reason isn’t able to know God as a trinity without the aid of divine revelation. Human reason is able to know God as One. This is because to us the Divine Persons are identicle. They are distinct only to themselves. The Father eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. " Only the Son knows the Father". This is the internal dialogue of God. Being made in His image we too have a constant internal dialogue. This dialogue that Jesus enjoyed with His Father was continual as well. The prayer you cited was a part of that dialogue Jesus wanted us to know about.

Ah so God talks to himself in front of people so that we can understand him/them/it better.

So when he said that he wanted the apostles to be one like He and the father are one are the 12 going to be all in one nonbody?

 

[teancum79]

I thought I said this before, but it came up. The LDS know the Bible has problems. We also know that the original text from which it has come have value to us. It does not require any degree if faith the CC to accept the writings of Moses.

As far as non canonized books of the era some may join the cannon at some point. I’ve heard it suggested that God will not give us too much more scripture until we make better use of what he has given us.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Ah so God talks to himself in front of people so that we can understand him/them/it better.

Jesus, in His human aspect, did many things to set a pattern for us to follow. He was baptized, although He obviously had no need of baptism. He prayed within earshot of others to the Father and said, among other things, one of the most important things that we can also say to God in our lives, which is “Thy Will be done.” Try it in your life, with sincerity, and you’ll see the effectiveness.

This nonsense of suggesting that God was “talking to himself in front of people”, while some may think of as being clever, is actually an insult to God. I don’t understand why anyone would want to ridicule God. That’s not being clever at all.

 

[Benadam]

Ah so God talks to himself in front of people so that we can understand him/them/it better.

So when he said that he wanted the apostles to be one like He and the father are one are the 12 going to be all in one nonbody?

No the whole idea is to enjoy the fruits of Christ’s victory over death of the body. But as scripture says and I paraphrase I trhink " we will see him as He is because we will be like Him".

Knowledge in it’s deepest sense is a union of likeness. That’s why Jesus said that to know Him is to know the Father. That knowing of God establishes a unity that isn’t earthly but divine so it is more of a oneness possible between body and soul.

 

[teancum79]

John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The 12 and those who believe are supposed to be one as the Son and Father are one

If its two different parts of the same “guy” life in heaven is going to get very strange having a few billion people all mushed together.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Continuing to ridicule the body of Christ is both unproductive as well as off topic. And it continues to be an insult to God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The 12 and those who believe are supposed to be one as the Son and Father are one

If its two different parts of the same “guy” life in heaven is going to get very strange having a few billion people all mushed together.

No, that isn’t what was explained to you at all.

Your first error is your Mormon belief that God the Father is flesh and bone. He is spirit.

Your second error is believing that the Eucharist, or “sacrament”, is but a “remembrance”. As this passage you site ties directly to the Eucharist, as well as Christ’s Sacrifice, and our Salvation. Christ is speaking of them all, at once.

Your third error is your Mormon belief that glorification=exaltation. This belief is unsupported by scripture and Sacred Tradition. Glorification is what was explained to you.

 

[teancum79]

No, that isn’t what was explained to you at all.

Your first error is your Mormon belief that God the Father is flesh and bone. He is spirit.

Your second error is believing that the Eucharist, or “sacrament”, is but a “remembrance”. As this passage you site ties directly to the Eucharist, as well as Christ’s Sacrifice, and our Salvation. Christ is speaking of them all, at once.

Your third error is your Mormon belief that glorification=exaltation. This belief is unsupported by scripture and Sacred Tradition. Glorification is what was explained to you.

So the scripture does not really mean what is says and I have to be in the CC to get it? Gee why don’t I buy that?

 

[MelanieAnne]

The topic is whether the DNA studies of population migrations support in any way the story told in the Book of Mormon. They definitely do not.

 

[Benadam]

So the scripture does not really mean what is says and I have to be in the CC to get it? Gee why don’t I buy that?

Teancum, you are calling what you think it means 'what it say’s" . A document that you must claim to have missing parts in order for it to mean what you think. I don’t really see the point in discussing it at all. Anyway, Melanie Annie is right this isn’t the topic and i must say I was hoping to discuss this with a mormon who found the DNA evidence something to ponder. As I think it should be to any intellectually honest Mormon.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Teancum, you are calling what you think it means 'what it say’s" . A document that you must claim to have missing parts in order for it to mean what you think. I don’t really see the point in discussing it at all. Anyway, Melanie Annie is right this isn’t the topic and i must say I was hoping to discuss this with a mormon who found the DNA evidence something to ponder. As I think it should be to any intellectually honest Mormon.

I agree with Benadam. Intellectually honesty demands that you at least ponder the significance of there being absolutely no evidence in the DNA of present day inhabitants of the New World to support the Book of Mormon story.

A discussion of why Mormons think that God is like them, and must be thought of and understood in human terms (more than a bit of human conceit!) and in fact CAN ONLY be understood in those terms, might be interesting but it is not pertinent to the topic at hand and serves only as a source of mis-direction.

If Mormons have the courage of their convictions, they should be able to discuss the utter absence of scientific evidence to support the Book of Mormon story without resorting to changing the subject every time they don’t like the result.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

The 12 and those who believe are supposed to be one as the Son and Father are one

If its two different parts of the same “guy” life in heaven is going to get very strange having a few billion people all mushed together.

Not at all!, as I was trying to explain on the “straw men” thread.
A husband and wife, when properly married are “one flesh” – this doesn’t mean they are completely identical, nor does it mean that they don’t have identities.
What it does mean is that for fleshly human beings it is possible to have a change in the flesh such that the two share the same flesh in a certain way – and this affection for each other in the flesh aids the two in acting together and doing good for each other.

For a simplistic example, there is at least a fleshly change in the brain related to all those neurotransmitters which go off during the sexual union – but the change is also quite permanent in the brain (which is flesh) which is what many amoral people do not realize. People do not walk away from casual sexual relationships unchanged – this “change” being only between two people here on Earth rather than three, four, or more doesn’t at all compare with what God can do in heaven.
We are not yet given the ability to be totally one with all others – men can’t be that way with other men, and so on…

Jesus took on flesh so that we may be united with him in a way that was not possible without the body. We will be one like the father and son – not identical.

The unity of the father and son is what the unity of a wife and husband is modeled on – in Gods image he made them male and female – this simple sentence is pointing not to the sexual union – but to the union of body and spirit which the complimentary sexes are capable of.

Strange is hardly accurate – it will in fact be the complete fulfillment of what it mean to be human.

1Cori 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
…
1Cori 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
…
1Cori 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

An alternative to the one flesh idea of heaven in a spiritual body is what the Cretans professed, and is what St. Paul refers to here:

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Now liars do not ALWAYS lie, but the Cretans believed that they had the Grave of Zeus – the God most powerful in Greek religion(s). The Cretans, as a Pagan practice and boast, told other Greeks that Zeus was once a man who became deified (demigod).

But, their own prophet condemns them – for it is obvious that a man who lived on Earth can not be credited for creating that same Earth in any way…etc.
This is why the Greeks had endless geneologies – because they went in circles where the son(s) became their own fathers (grandfathers…) … This is the result of a deification theory that some Greeks held.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

If Mormons have the courage of their convictions, they should be able to discuss the utter absence of scientific evidence to support the Book of Mormon story without resorting to changing the subject every time they don’t like the result.

Yet very few do. WHEN they do (such as LDS apologists like Jeff Lindsay) all one sees, as I mentioned earlier, is an appeal to possibility.

“Since anything is possible, the Book of Mormon is true”.

 

[teancum79]

Teancum, you are calling what you think it means 'what it say’s" . A document that you must claim to have missing parts in order for it to mean what you think. I don’t really see the point in discussing it at all. Anyway, Melanie Annie is right this isn’t the topic and i must say I was hoping to discuss this with a mormon who found the DNA evidence something to ponder. As I think it should be to any intellectually honest Mormon.

I’m all up for talking about DNA evidence sadly most of what has been discussed here is religious belief in a DNA fad.