Indeed. The same problem was faced by John Wesley, who, although he believed in presbyteral ordination as per the ancient Alexandrian custom, refused to exercise what he believed to be his authority to ordain until after the American Revolution, since he thought it would be wrong to break the canons of the Church of England and the laws of the Realm in doing so.
Evangelcatholic,True. And all Christians other than Roman Catholics deny papal infallibility. So it is a draw!
Please do not ascribe quotes to me that I never made. You may want to go back and find who you are allegedly quoting and direct your statement to that poster.
I don’t know much about the ACNA situation. I would have guessed that they are in communion but not recognised as canonically erected. Obviously their communion with the Episcopal Church in the United States (at least as a whole, corporate body) has been largely broken, but as far as I am aware there has been official break of communion with Canterbury and York.
I don’t believe that for a minute. (And I see others have contradicted it as well.) The ACNA may not be in full communion with the CoE, but the CoE isn’t the only province in the Anglican Communion.The Anglican Church is North America is in communion with no one
There’s the rub: Rome hasn’t made an official statement that Lutherans do not have valid AS; but that doesn’t mean that Rome recognizes your AS either.
Right, it varies. I’ve also heard of ex-Catholics and ex-Anglicans who became Orthodox and were rebaptized.
To my knowledge, the line of bishops of the primate of Sweden, for example, goes from Johannes Magnus, consecrated by Pope Paul III to Laurentius Petru, first Lutheran archbishop of Uppsala, who was consecrated by Petrus Magni, Bishop of Västerås though perhaps by coercion from Gustav I, King of Sweden in 1531. There was no break in Apostolic Succession, which was apparently important to Swedish Lutherans even though the Augsburg Confession claimed it was optional.
Should I take this to mean there are no words in common with Anglican Ordination and Catholic Ordination? Apostolic Succession needs previous Bishops, confirming the Pope’s selection of a Priest as a new Bishop. Each bishop succeeding the other in the ministry. To break that succession (traces all the way back to the Apostles), the consecration of a Priest must be invalid in some way. So we would be saying the Anglicans don’t have legitimate Priests as well; as we understand the term.
Of course you would.* Apostolicae Curae* says so.Should I take this to mean there are no words in common with Anglican Ordination and Catholic Ordination? Apostolic Succession needs previous Bishops, confirming the Pope’s selection of a Priest as a new Bishop. Each bishop succeeding the other in the ministry. To break that succession (traces all the way back to the Apostles), the consecration of a Priest must be invalid in some way. So we would be saying the Anglicans don’t have legitimate Priests as well; as we understand the term.
Certainly, it simplifies the discussion if we’re only talking about places like Sweden, where Lutherans had a line of bishops right from the beginning. (I.e. it would complicate the discussion if we also consider the places where Lutherans had no bishops, and priests were ordained by other priests.) However, even for that, Rome has made no definitive statement … thus leaving open the possibility that Lutherans may have lost valid orders (perhaps in the way that Apostolicae Curae says that Anglicans lost them once upon a time).
Papal nomination to all but a handful of Sees is very much a late nineteenth/early twentieth century development.
I need to study this situation a bit more. My sense is that all Lutherans in Scandinavian and Baltic countries maintained apostolic succession, in part, to the fact that the Swedes conquered/ controlled parts of northern Europe.
Evangelcatholic,
Oops again. Sorry Ufam; you are correct.Evangelcatholic,
I do want to go back to direct you to your statement #14. Scroll back you will find it:thumbsup:
They say the mind is the last thing to go, so please come Home before it is too late.
This was your post to bben “True. And all Christians other than Roman Catholics deny papal infallibility. So it is a draw!”
Ufam Tobie
