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PJM
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OK
For the sake of discussion
WHAT then goes to final judgment when WE die?
WELCOME home!
GBY
Patrick
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PJM
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PJM
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PJM
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amen!:dinstead of worrying about our pet being in heaven, we should make sure we are going to be there.
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John_Martin
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Scripture does not say, but does not deny animals will be in the resurrection. The Preacher in Ecclesiastes writes (chpt. 3)
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
As for the content or type of an animal’s soul, Scripture also hints that there is more to the animal soul than we grant it credit for, since we cannot reason with them as with each other (although reason is used very little in this country and world today).
I am recalling Balaam’s donkey in the book of Numbers (20, I believe). This donkey manifested reason and moral thought after ‘I AM’ opened the donkey’s mouth. It does not say he was “inspired” with words and thoughts to speak, just his mouth was opened, and what was already within this donkey had a path of expression. He also used the personal pronouns to refer to himself and Balaam, indicating a relationship of persons.
“Just a ‘story’”, if just a story, what part is not real? The donkey reasoning part? The angel of ‘I AM’ blocking the way? ‘I AM’ telling Balaam what to say to the King multiple times? The whole book of Numbers?
Know the LORD who knew Balaam’s donkey when you speak with God about your pet, and remember the preacher.
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
As for the content or type of an animal’s soul, Scripture also hints that there is more to the animal soul than we grant it credit for, since we cannot reason with them as with each other (although reason is used very little in this country and world today).
I am recalling Balaam’s donkey in the book of Numbers (20, I believe). This donkey manifested reason and moral thought after ‘I AM’ opened the donkey’s mouth. It does not say he was “inspired” with words and thoughts to speak, just his mouth was opened, and what was already within this donkey had a path of expression. He also used the personal pronouns to refer to himself and Balaam, indicating a relationship of persons.
“Just a ‘story’”, if just a story, what part is not real? The donkey reasoning part? The angel of ‘I AM’ blocking the way? ‘I AM’ telling Balaam what to say to the King multiple times? The whole book of Numbers?
Know the LORD who knew Balaam’s donkey when you speak with God about your pet, and remember the preacher.
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rcwitness
Guest
Was Solomon referring to animals, or ungodly men?
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John_Martin
Guest
Beasts means animals, lions, tigers, bears, dogs, cats, cows, goats.
Solomon would have called an ungodly man by the term “the ungodly” or “the unrighteous” or “the evil man”, etc.
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rcwitness
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Yes, you are probably correct. But I’m not convinced this is an affirmation for possible animal resurrection. What is Solomon trying to say here? For sure, he is stating the obvious, that both beasts and man die, then they decompose back into the matter of dirt. He then “seems” to imply that the “spirit” (or life?) of man and beast might die or live on, right? So according to this logic, is he saying man may not live on in heaven?
I think he is saying that, according to our wisdom, we cannot know. But we do know, according to God’s revelation, that man is saved from death and offered eternal life with Him. So I find this a difficult passage to conclude that Solomon is promoting the belief in an animal resurrection.
Btw, I am not opposed to believing that the new heaven and Earth will have animals. I just don’t believe in a resurrection of animals.
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DarkNight
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PJM
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My friend. WHAT bible version are you quoting? *
I did a bile search of the Douay & the RSV and could NOT locate it:shrug:
GBY
Patrick*
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DarkNight
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John Martin is quoting the English Standard Version.
Douay-Rheims uses this wording:
Douay-Rheims uses this wording:
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John_Martin
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Correct, he is saying we do not know; and correct, Solomon is not asserting animal resurrection.
And we are standing as “wiser than Solomon” if we say that we do know their End.
While we may give reasons one way or the other, all is speculation, and not revelation.
But we can hope in our Lord, that we will delight in his understanding of animals when we see him face to face - it will then also be our understanding.
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Vonsalza
Guest
Well, that settles it. I’m going to spend eternity with my Boston Terrier, Bailey.
She and I would both like to know; are there going to be miniature soccer balls in heaven to play with?
New Thread?
She and I would both like to know; are there going to be miniature soccer balls in heaven to play with?
New Thread?
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PJM
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THANK YOU!
Can you please supply the book, chapter and verses; I’d like to read more on this
God Bless you
Patrick
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JanetF
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For me it’s a question of the type of soul they have. Immortal souls of humans go to heaven. Animals have mortal souls, so no they don’t go to heaven.
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PJM
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THANKS:thumbsup:
Ecc. 3: 19-22 [Douay Bible with explanations]
[19] Therefore the death of man, and of beasts is one, and the condition of them both is equal: as man dieth, so they also die: all things breathe alike, and man hath nothing more than beast: all things are subject to vanity.[20] And all things go to one place: of earth they were made, and into earth they return together.
[19] Man hath nothing more: Viz., as to the life of the body.
[21] Who knoweth if the spirit of the children of Adam ascend upward, and if the spirit of the beasts descend downward? [22] And I have found that nothing is better than for a man to rejoice in his work, and that this is his portion. For who shall bring him to know the things that shall be after him?
[21] Who knoweth: Viz., experimentally: since no one in this life can see a spirit. But as to the spirit of the beasts, which is merely animal, and become extinct by the death of the beast, who can tell the manner it acts so as to give life and motion, and by death to descend downward, that is, to be no more?
Num. 22: 22-35 [Douay Bible with explanations]
[22] And God was angry. And an angel of the Lord stood in the way against Balaam, who sat on the ***, and had two servants with him. [23] The *** seeing the angel standing in the way, with a drawn sword, turned herself out of the way, and went into the field. And when Balaam beat her, and had a mind to bring her again to the way, [24] The angel stood in a narrow place between two walls, wherewith the vineyards were enclosed. [25] And the *** seeing him, thrust herself close to the wall, and bruised the foot of the rider. But he beat her again:
[26] And nevertheless the angel going on to a narrow place, where there was no way to turn aside either to the right hand or to the left, stood to meet him. [27] And when the *** saw the angel standing, she fell under the feet of the rider: who being angry beat her sides more vehemently with a staff. [28] And the Lord opened the mouth of the ***, and she said: What have I done to thee? Why strikest thou me, lo, now this third time? [29] Balaam answered: Because thou hast deserved it, and hast served me ill: I would I had a sword that I might kill thee. [30] The *** said: Am not I thy beast, on which thou hast been always accustomed to ride until this present day? tell me if I ever did the like thing to thee. But he said: Never.
***[28] Opened the mouth: The angel moved the tongue of the , to utter these speeches, to rebuke, by the mouth of a brute beast, the brutal fury and folly of Balaam.
[31] Forthwith the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel standing in the way with a drawn sword, and he worshipped him falling flat on the ground. [32] And the angel said to him: Why beatest thou thy *** these three times? I am come to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse, and contrary to me: [33] And unless the *** had turned out of the way, giving place to me who stood against thee, I had slain thee, and she should have lived. [34] Balaam said: I have sinned, not knowing that thou didst stand against me: and now if it displease thee that I go, I will return. [35] The angel said: Go with these men, and see thou speak no other thing than what I shall command thee. He went therefore with the princes.
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