Do animals have consciousness?

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But the claim is that evil entered the world because of the sin of one man. So evil is the consequence of his actions.

And ours. Take my example of humans who cause AGW, and their descendants who suffer. Is that not a true statement?

And there’s me thinking that the sin of one man brought death into the world. But how does sin cause a tsunami? You do realise I’m sure that some people take this argument to its logical conclusion and blame some sins (I dunno…homosexuality?) for some natural disasters (like…bushfires?).
Israel Folau under fire for implying bushfires are God's punishment | Israel Folau | The Guardian

 

[Famulus]

The Soul would be what differentiates us, if they do.

 

[Gorgias]

But how does sin cause a tsunami?

Are the causes of AGW morally illicit? (That is, are they sinful?)

Is one of the effects of AGW increased levels of catastrophic storms – hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis?

If your answers are “yes” and “yes”, then you’ve already answered your question. If your answers to either of these are “no”, then we need to talk about issues that are scientifically measurable.

You do realise I’m sure that some people take this argument to its logical conclusion and blame some sins (I dunno…homosexuality?) for some natural disasters

They do. They’re mistaken. You’re not asking me to associate myself with, and offer comfort and support for, those who teach things at odds with Catholic teachings… are you? If that were the case, then I should require you to offer support for all sorts of arguments that you yourself don’t believe in.
Is that reasonable? C’mon, man…

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But how does sin cause a tsunami?

Are the causes of AGW morally illicit? (That is, are they sinful?)

Is one of the effects of AGW increased levels of catastrophic storms – hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis?

If your answers are “yes” and “yes”, then you’ve already answered your question. If your answers to either of these are “no”, then we need to talk about issues that are scientifically measurable.

You do realise I’m sure that some people take this argument to its logical conclusion and blame some sins (I dunno…homosexuality?) for some natural disasters

They do. They’re mistaken.

Why are you asking about man made problems? The Boxing Day tsunami for example was caused by an earthquake. How did sin cause that?

 

[Gorgias]

The Boxing Day tsunami for example was caused by an earthquake. How did sin cause that?

Sin gives rise to natural evil. I’m not making the claim that you’re attempting to force me into making – namely, that ‘particular sins’ give rise to ‘particular evils’.

Sorry… I’m not making that claim, and any attempts on your part to force me into asserting that claim falls into the realm of the “loaded question fallacy” (you know… the one that often takes the form of “when did you stop beating your wife?”…!)

 

[EndTimes]

Not God’s teaching. Christian doctrine.

As a Catholic, i am completely

Catholic Christian Teaching - ergo true.

Anything else?

_

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

The Boxing Day tsunami for example was caused by an earthquake. How did sin cause that?

Sin gives rise to natural evil. I’m not making the claim that you’re attempting to force me into making – namely, that ‘particular sins’ give rise to ‘particular evils’.

Sorry… I’m not making that claim, and any attempts on your part to force me into asserting that claim falls into the realm of the “loaded question fallacy” (you know… the one that often takes the form of “when did you stop beating your wife?”…!)

So let’s not talk about particular evils or particular sins. And let’s pass on man made evils (global warming perhaps). Let’s just make sure I have this correct. So as you said:

Sin gives rise to natural evil.

So that would include such natural events as volcano eruptions, tsunamis and earthquakes. These are events that aren’t caused directly by man but indirectly (?) by sinning.

 

[Larquetta]

I meant consciousness. I was just asking this question because it relates to my college course and my professor seemed to suggest that the Church believes animals don’t have consciousness.

 

[EndTimes]

Assertion, not fact.

Actually… True

 

[EndTimes]

Are you saying Christian teaching is inerrant?
Why do you think that?

Jesus Christ is Truth… It’s not a “think”

_

 

[lelinator]

jan10000:

Are you saying Christian teaching is inerrant?
Why do you think that?

Jesus Christ is Truth… It’s not a “think”

You misunderstood the question.

The question isn’t, “Is Jesus Christ the Truth?” The question is, why do you think that Christian teaching is inerrant?

 

[EndTimes]

You misunderstood the question.

The question isn’t, “ Is Jesus Christ the Truth? ” The question is, why do you think that Christian teaching is inerrant?

Christian Teaching? Teaching from Christ/Truth

_

 

[Gorgias]

When you say “got the ball rolling”, what was the mechanism that specifically created the first natural evil?

No idea. And I don’t think I’ve ever read anyone who has speculated on it. But, I can give you this: “through one person sin entered the world” (Romans 5:12).

Did God see Adam sinned, and create first earthquake?

See… you’re sounding snarky again. Do you want to discuss this, or just make fun of it?

How does sin “cause” an earthquake physically?

I’m not claiming a one-to-one relationship between a particular sin and a particular event.

I feel like a dentist pulling teeth.

It’s painful for me, too, to have to keep explaining it.

Were animals present on this planet BEFORE human beings?

if yes - please respond to problem of animal suffering AND problem of evil

Yes.

You haven’t substantiated the “problem of animal suffering”, but just asserted it without attribution. We’ve already discussed the “problem of evil”.

And let’s pass on man made evils (global warming perhaps).

Let’s not, because that’s the whole point! Sin has consequences, not only morally but also physically. Period, full stop.

And if we all stop sinning, would natural disasters slowly stop?

No, because we’ve already “seeded” the world with negative consequences.

It also seems as if your theory of natural evil invalidates all the cosmological arguments used by Christians to justify theism - specifically, we now have a new cause in the cause and effect chain: sin.

Not sure how you’re reaching that conclusion. How does ‘sin’ invalidate God’s existence?

 

[Gorgias]

That’s the official Catholic teaching. Also that animals do not feel pain.

You keep claiming this. Please back it up with proof or stop asserting it.

Thanks!

 

[AlNg]

what I’m saying is that natural evil entered into the world as a deformation of God’s “good creation” when humans first sinned.

Were there any poisonous insects before humans appeared on earth?

 

[Gorgias]

Were there any poisonous insects before humans appeared on earth?

Let’s ask the question in a more helpful way. You’re trying to ask either:

• if insects defended themselves against other insect and animal predators prior to the appearance of humans on earth
• if humans were poisoned by insects prior to the first sin
  • after all, you can’t really be asking whether humans were poisoned by insects prior to the appearance of humans on earth!

Both questions work well with Catholic theology:

• it’s not a problem that animals lived and died prior to the arrival of humans
• it’s not a stretch to suggest that human poisoning by insects only happened after the first sin. After all, we’re not suggesting that humans lived for generations – or even years – without sin!

 

[AlNg]

Let’s ask the question in a more helpful way.

That is a different question. My question is this:
Were there poisonous insects on earth before homo sapiens appeared?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And let’s pass on man made evils (global warming perhaps).

Let’s not, because that’s the whole point! Sin has consequences, not only morally but also physically. Period, full stop.

And if we all stop sinning, would natural disasters slowly stop?

No, because we’ve already “seeded” the world with negative consequences.

We can and should pass on man made problems because we are talking about natural disasters. As you said to Jan above, they would not stop if we stopped sinning because we have ‘seeded’ the world with negative consequences.

So that is the answer. We experience natural disasters because of sin. And we can extrapolate from that. It’s not too hard to joint the dots. I mean, I know some people actually state that a specific disaster is the result of a specific sin, but if we talk in general terms then we could ask people what on earth do they expect if they suffer from an earthquake or a tsunami or a bush fire. Sin is the cause. It’s our fault.

As an ex-Australian rugby player said recently: ‘The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.’

Israel Folau under fire for implying bushfires are God's punishment | Israel Folau | The Guardian

It seems you and Izzy are on the same page.

 

[o_mlly]

Were there poisonous insects on earth before homo sapiens appeared?

I believe the particular insect that you referenced in an earlier post is not poisonous in itself. The creature can, however, transmit a parasitic virus.

The status of viruses as animals is debated. If we agree that viruses are not animals then the thing is just one more thing on the list of things that man cannot tolerate. Could man tolerate these things before the first sin? I think so.

All creatures, including man, that predate on other creatures may be called parasites of a sort. Plant life absorbs inert minerals in the soil, herbivores absorb plants, carnivores absorb herbivores (and other carnivores) and omnivores absorb all. The creation of new life always involves the death of existing life. So in a way, by metabolizing the lower forms of life, the lower forms participate in higher forms of life.

As to natural evils, before sin man had infused knowledge. Would it be likely that that knowledge prevented him from building cities on tectonic plates, or in hurricane or tsunami prone areas of the planet? I think so.

 

[AlNg]

I believe the particular insect that you referenced in an earlier post is not poisonous in itself.

The insect carries a deadly virus as do a few others. Was this insect or any other poison carrying insect alive before the appearance of homo sapiens? That would be my question. I suspect that there were such and even other poisonous species such as poisonous snakes or reptiles and that they could have caused problems for animals that existed at that time.