Do any Protestant communities have valid Apostolic Succession?

[GKC]

I suppose those who helped these legends along their way felt a myth could hold as much “truth” as a fact. Do you think that is what is happening in Hippolytus, or is it just that you think the doubtful provenance of Seventy Apostles makes it valueless as evidence?

I think that Hippolytus, or the Martyrology of the Greek Church, or Baronius, or any such (Lewis/ST .JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY lists a number of such, with respect to Aristobulus, inter alia) could not/did not distinguish from legend, or speculation, or chained citations. This is pious tradition, not history. And it is often at the service of various claims with respect to ecclesiastical history, raised for a number of purposes. I find no accepted evidence for an organized presence in the Isles before around 200 AD or so.

GKC

 

[Picky_Picky]

I think that Hippolytus, or the Martyrology of the Greek Church, or Baronius, or any such (Lewis/ST .JOSEPH OF ARIMATHEA AT GLASTONBURY lists a number of such, with respect to Aristobulus, inter alia) could not/did not distinguish from legend, or speculation, or chained citations. This is pious tradition, not history. And it is often at the service of various claims with respect to ecclesiastical history, raised for a number of purposes. I find no accepted evidence for an organized presence in the Isles before around 200 AD or so.

GKC

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

 

[GKC]

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

You are very welcome.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Until evidence to the contrary, one would be fairly assured of validity in RC churches, as religious views, or strength of belief are a different issue than a general intention to do what the Church does, and a formal contrary intention.

First, does apostolic succession even exist. In the case of Holy Orders and Apostolica Curae, from the Roman vantage point, Anglicans at least prior to the Old Catholic involvement in some consecrations in the early 1900’s were held to be invalid, so intention or no intention, even if only the intention to do what the Church does was a moot point. After, one would have to look at the lines of succession with Old Catholic lines. GKC was the first Anglican/Anglo-Catholic I’ve encountered who was able to support any documentation that these OC bishops participated in the actual laying on of hands and did not act as simple observers. Even the folks I spoke to at St. Mary’s in Los Feliz, and St. Clement’s were unsure of where it would be documented, I have no reason to believe GKC here and on other boards is anything but honest and well read on the subject.

As to the TAC bishop I’ve brought up, it would be a difficult to argue in favor of the ordinations he preformed, if upon further investigation beyond the conversation I had with him that for a matter such as Holy Orders found him holding a positive contrary intention, that he intended to not ordain priests to offer sacrifice (if this bishop did somehow have valid orders) would be overcome a general intent to do what the Church does. But paired with other statements he made against the Mass being a Sacrifice and the real presence as anything more than a symbolic presence of Jesus in the congregation and not a transformation of the elements. However as he was speaking to a group, and I did not have the ability to question him further, there may be a slim that his lack of theological formation, as can be found among some of the TAC clergy in the U.S. could effect the issue.

A similar case was discussed while I was In the seminary there was a case of a bishop who near the end of his life admitted that his dislike for the Jesuits was so great that he formulated the intention to not ordain any Jesuit to the priesthood. Those who had gone through the rite with him were all ordianed by another bishop upon the revelation of the information.

Fr. Hughes’ second book on the sad tale of Apostolicae Curae (my characterization), STEWARDS OF THE LORD, (essential, as is his first book, ditto) has a useful appendix (II) on the Old Catholic consecrators, after the Bonn agreement. He quotes +van Vlijmen, OC Bishop of Haarlem, declaring that when laying on hands with the ABC, he fully intended to confer “… the order of the episcopate according to the mind of our holy mother, the Catholic and Apostolic Church…and to impart the same episcopal character which…we bishops of the Old Catholic Church possess, that is, the fullness of the priesthood with each and every function pertaining thereto and with the faculties inherent in the same, in the precise sense in which the fullness of the priesthood has been understood *everywhere, always, and by all *” (quote cites emphasis in the original). Hughes also quotes a phrase from the document he is citing which identifies the reason for the OC participation as mingling the two streams of episcopal succession, from the Apostles, in the bishops of the OC and in the Anglican episcopate (paraphrase). Sounds like someone was making a point.

I am fairly well read on the subject and adequately honest, as to the occasion. I think.

GKC

 

[Jotto]

None.

As I have shown on another thread, one of the most radical errors of Reformation theology was Luther’s denial of a distinct sacerdotal office or power and his corresponding claim that all believers are equally priests before God. This notion was incorporated into the Smalcald Articles and thus made Confessional doctrine.

Guess, you’ll need to refer me to that other thread as on the face of it you don’t seem to understand that Lutheranism is based upon the Augsburg Confession along with some other confessional documents and not this or that comment of Martin Luther. But even in regard to what Luther believed, he decidedly provided for and encouraged the practice of ordination and the maintenance of clergy in those Christian communities what identified with his reformation.

 

[Jotto]

No. Not a single Protestant group has valid Apostolic Succession.

In the face of the above simple and apparently certain denial, one must wonder if the writer is aware of the practice of succession maintained since the Reformation in the Church of Sweden and the Church of Finland and now through those communions transmitted to most of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. This succession has never been denied by Rome.

As for the Church of England, Old Catholic bishops have been passing on valid lines of succession to her for over a century now. But since both Anglicans and Lutherans and even the Old Catholic communions in Europe and the United States now increasingly practice the ordination of women to both the presbytery and the episcopacy what you assert will no doubt eventually be true at least from the Roman Catholic point of view.

But there are indications that the ordination of women to the diaconate will eventually be approved by Rome as it has been in the Greek Orthodox Church. So then hopefully Roman Catholics will experience the joy of see that half of the human race deemed worthy to re-present Christ in the daily life of the world also re-present him in the gathered community of the Church.

 

[Nicea325]

In the face of the above simple and apparently certain denial, one must wonder if the writer is aware of the practice of succession maintained since the Reformation in the Church of Sweden and the Church of Finland and now through those communions transmitted to most of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. This succession has never been denied by Rome.

As for the Church of England, Old Catholic bishops have been passing on valid lines of succession to her for over a century now. But since both Anglicans and Lutherans and even the Old Catholic communions in Europe and the United States now increasingly practice the ordination of women to both the presbytery and the episcopacy what you assert will no doubt eventually be true at least from the Roman Catholic point of view.

But there are indications that the **ordination of women to the diaconate **will eventually be approved by Rome as it has been in the Greek Orthodox Church. So then hopefully Roman Catholics will experience the joy of see that half of the human race deemed worthy to re-present Christ in the daily life of the world also re-present him in the gathered community of the Church.

Do you have sources supporting your statement? As for women as diaconate? I have been told by a Greek Orthodox that women are not being ordained as deacons.

 

[GKC]

In the face of the above simple and apparently certain denial, one must wonder if the writer is aware of the practice of succession maintained since the Reformation in the Church of Sweden and the Church of Finland and now through those communions transmitted to most of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. This succession has never been denied by Rome.

As for the Church of England, Old Catholic bishops have been passing on valid lines of succession to her for over a century now. But since both Anglicans and Lutherans and even the Old Catholic communions in Europe and the United States now increasingly practice the ordination of women to both the presbytery and the episcopacy what you assert will no doubt eventually be true at least from the Roman Catholic point of view.

But there are indications that the ordination of women to the diaconate will eventually be approved by Rome as it has been in the Greek Orthodox Church. So then hopefully Roman Catholics will experience the joy of see that half of the human race deemed worthy to re-present Christ in the daily life of the world also re-present him in the gathered community of the Church.

The issue of the OCs and Anglicanism dates back only to after the Agreement of Bonn, and starts in 1932. As I have said (often) logically that would suggest the transmission through the joint episcopal consecrations, of valid/illicit lines. As I also have said (roughly the same number of times), it would be interesting to hear a definite RCC statement on that issue. And I say it all again.

What also may be said is that the RCC holds Anglican orders null and void. Doesn’t bother me much.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[Peter_J]

In the face of the above simple and apparently certain denial, one must wonder if the writer is aware of the practice of succession maintained since the Reformation in the Church of Sweden and the Church of Finland and now through those communions transmitted to most of the Lutheran communions of Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. This succession has never been denied by Rome.

Neither affirmed not denied.

 

[Jotto]

Do you have sources supporting your statement? As for women as diaconate? I have been told by a Greek Orthodox that women are not being ordained as deacons.

See: goholytrinity.org/fsOrdination.html:

“In the ancient Church, women were eligible for ordination to the first rank of the major orders, that of deacon, though the order of women deacons eventually fell into disuse in the Church. In October of 2004, the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece gave its approval for the reinstitution of this order and the ordination of women as deacons in certain limited circumstances (i.e., abbesses serving in remote monasteries). Whether the ordination of women deacons might one day be approved in this country by the Holy Eparchial Synod of America remains an open question.”

 

[JonNC]

Neither affirmed not denied.

This is my understanding, as well

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

See: goholytrinity.org/fsOrdination.html:

“In the ancient Church, women were eligible for ordination to the first rank of the major orders, that of deacon, though the order of women deacons eventually fell into disuse in the Church. In October of 2004, the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece gave its approval for the reinstitution of this order and the ordination of women as deacons in certain limited circumstances (i.e., abbesses serving in remote monasteries). Whether the ordination of women deacons might one day be approved in this country by the Holy Eparchial Synod of America remains an open question.”

Okay,but hope you are aware those female deacons did not have or carry out the same duties as male deacons.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Okay,but hope you are aware those female deacons did not have or carry out the same duties as male deacons.

Certainly I’ve read this before. No doubt the female deacons looked after the women as the male did the men. I’d be grateful if you could tell me what the other differences were, and what the provenance for them is?

 

[Symphorian]

Certainly I’ve read this before. No doubt the female deacons looked after the women as the male did the men. I’d be grateful if you could tell me what the other differences were, and what the provenance for them is?

Deaconesses stood in special relation to the Bishop as regards his dealing with women. They assisted at the baptism of members of their sex and visited sick women which included taking the reserved Sacrament to them. They also taught women and acted as doorkeepers on the women’s side of the church when congregations were segregated by sex. The Office became obsolete in the middle ages although remnants of its form remained in the Pontifical in rites for blessing of widows or nuns.

In the Apostolic Constitutions, the Bishop ordains the Deaconess by the laying on of his hand and he places the Diaconal Stole round her neck. She then receives Holy Communion after which the Bishop gives her the Chalice which she immediately restores to the Altar.

In the East, the Order of Deaconess fell into abeyance in the 12th century. In the Orthodox form, the Bishop prays that God ‘will give the grace of thy Holy Spirit to this thy servant, who desires to offer herself to thee and to fulfil the grace of the Diaconate, as thou didst give the grace of thy Diaconate unto Phoebe, whom thou didst call to the work of the Ministry’. The Deaconess was then invested with the Diaconal Stole. Her ecclesiastical rank was superior to that of Subdeacon.

Whilst there are some isolated instance of Deaconesses in the 16th century, the restoration of the Order of Deaconess is probably down to the Lutherans with the founding of the Kaiserworth Deaconess House in 1836. The Church of England followed shortly after in 1862 when ++Tait admitted Elizabeth Ferrard as the first duly ordained Deaconess in the CofE.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Indeed, and no doubt the male deacons assisted at the baptism of men, visited sick men, taught men, and acted as doorkeepers on the male side of the church. So far so similar. But what differences were there in the early church, and what is the provenance for them?

 

[Nicea325]

Deaconesses stood in special relation to the Bishop as regards his dealing with women. They assisted at the baptism of members of their sex and visited sick women which included taking the reserved Sacrament to them. They also taught women and acted as doorkeepers on the women’s side of the church when congregations were segregated by sex. The Office became obsolete in the middle ages although remnants of its form remained in the Pontifical in rites for blessing of widows or nuns.

In the Apostolic Constitutions, the Bishop ordains the Deaconess by the laying on of his hand and he places the Diaconal Stole round her neck. She then receives Holy Communion after which the Bishop gives her the Chalice which she immediately restores to the Altar.

In the East, the Order of Deaconess fell into abeyance in the 12th century. In the Orthodox form, the Bishop prays that God ‘will give the grace of thy Holy Spirit to this thy servant, who desires to offer herself to thee and to fulfil the grace of the Diaconate, as thou didst give the grace of thy Diaconate unto Phoebe, whom thou didst call to the work of the Ministry’. The Deaconess was then invested with the Diaconal Stole. Her ecclesiastical rank was superior to that of Subdeacon.

Whilst there are some isolated instance of Deaconesses in the 16th century, the restoration of the Order of Deaconess is probably down to the Lutherans with the founding of the Kaiserworth Deaconess House in 1836. The Church of England followed shortly after in 1862 when ++Tait admitted Elizabeth Ferrard as the first duly ordained Deaconess in the CofE.

In many ways I se them as nuns or religious sisters living the consecrated life.

 

[Picky_Picky]

In many ways I se them as nuns or religious sisters living the consecrated life.

In any ways. What I was asking was where those ideas led from, those ideas that “female deacons did not have or carry out the same duties as male deacons.” I’ve often read that statement, and I’d be grateful if you could give its provenance if you can.

 

[Nicea325]

In any ways. What I was asking was where those ideas led from, those ideas that “female deacons did not have or carry out the same duties as male deacons.” I’ve often read that statement, and I’d be grateful if you could give its provenance if you can.

Sure. Give some time to gather my sources. I’ll will PM you.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Sure. Give some time to gather my sources. I’ll will PM you.

Ta

 

[Jotto]

Okay,but hope you are aware those female deacons did not have or carry out the same duties as male deacons.

Well of course, as before, I think we are safe to assume that they will have authority to baptize (as any layperson can), provide pastoral care (as many lay people now do) and teach (again as many lay people now do). The critical question is will they be authorized to preach in the context of the Mass. Since over the past quarter century, women have been preaching (at “dry” Masses in the absence of a priest) in Roman Catholic parishes, I personally hope they will be authorized to preach at Mass just as male deacons now do. We’ll just have to wait and see.

It is my understanding that right now that some adjustments in Roman Catholic Canon Law are under way that would provide for a diaconate for women that is not part of the traditional three-fold ministry of deacon, priest and bishop thus making the role of women deacons a lay ministry. But if that is how the consecration of women to diaconal ministry will be handled among Roman Catholics, I am quite sure that this theological distinction will be lost to most of the laity. And just as been the case with those many parishes where women have been serving as the de facto pastor (as opposed to de jure pastor); and people have become very comfortable with seeing a woman at the altar in a pastoral leadership role, such a change will garner even more support among practicing Catholic lay people for ordaining women to the presbytery.

In conclusion I think that the growing sensus fidelium favoring women priests will eventually (sometime beyond the life of this writer) lead to the position taken in 1976 by the majority of the then working Pontifical Biblical Commission being borne out and that the Magisterium will eventually reverse itself and provide for the ordination of women to the presbytery and eventually the episcopacy of the Roman Catholic Church.

As one Catholic known to me put it, “If by virtue of their baptism women are called as members of his Body to re-present the person of Christ in the world-at-large, it seems very strange that they are not considered qualified or worthy to re-present Christ within the gathered community.”