Do any Protestant communities have valid Apostolic Succession?

[aidanbradypop]

very funny!

I hesitate to post this photo of female bishops in the Church of Sweden but I think Missouri Synod Lutherans as well as Roman Catholics should be exposed to how natural and right it is that women be given authority in the Church. The blessed Virgin Mary is the most honored and glorious woman, the very Mother of God, the feminine aspect of God. Why can’t faithful women follow Her example?

Exposed? Natural? Right?

Hmmmmmm!

I wish you could expose yourself to true Catholic doctrine and stop trying to convince Catholics that ordaining women is the correct way to go. The Church did not decide one morning to only ordain males to the priesthood. Actually is was Christ who decided who should preach the Gospel and answer the call to the priesthood. Do you feel as if you know better than our Lord and can decide on who answers the calling?

I would rather not be exposed to such a false teaching as such and do not find it natural nor right. Kind of find it offensive actually.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Exposed? Natural? Right?

Hmmmmmm!

I wish you could expose yourself to true Catholic doctrine and stop trying to convince Catholics that ordaining women is the correct way to go. The Church did not decide one morning to only ordain males to the priesthood. Actually is was Christ who decided who should preach the Gospel and answer the call to the priesthood. Do you feel as if you know better than our Lord and can decide on who answers the calling?

I would rather not be exposed to such a false teaching as such and do not find it natural nor right. Kind of find it offensive actually.

My sense is that this issue will continue to be debated in the Church and that once cultural impairments are isolated that women will be welcomed into the priesthood across many denominational lines.

 

[aidanbradypop]

My sense is that this issue will continue to be debated in the Church and that once cultural impairments are isolated that women will be welcomed into the priesthood across many denominational lines.

Nope. All the debate in the world will not change it EC.

 

[aidanbradypop]

EvangelCatholic:
EC…It has been said on this thread by a few Lutherans that the Lutheran denomination has valid Apostolic Succession in some synods. I believe Ben even went as far as to say that Rome has never declared otherwise. The Sun is yellow. Must I tell you it is yellow?

Let’s look at a few other faiths that declare to have valid Apostolic Succession. Rome has never declared otherwise with these either.

northernway.org/

“Bishop” Katia Romanov claims to have a valid Apostolic Succession in the Old Catholic tradition. If you believe that the Old Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and it is valid, then you must believe “Bishop” Katia also has valid Apostolic Succession. You can view the Apostolic Succession tab on the website for further details.

Now let us look at a priest that she ordained and granted her “AS” to. He currently runs an Independent Catholic Church in Florida. He claims to have valid Sacraments…etc…etc. His’ site saintpaulparish.org/ He claims to be a Catholic priest from attending her semi gnostic seminary online.

When you read about her seminary and religious views (I hope you do) you will gather that her Apostolic Succession is kind of a joke. Well not one that we should laugh about because it is taking people down a wrong path.

You claim that the ELCA has valid AS through the Old Catholic Church and the Episcopalians, but Rome does not recognize either priesthood as a valid one. So how can the ELCA be any different?

Is Apostilic Succession to be something that is handed out like girl scout cookie? I could go to the seminary at the link above and gain Apostolic Succession if we go by your view on it. Right?

Why is it that you speak so highly of Apostolic Succession but the majority, if not all, or the ELCA congregations here care as much about it as they do statues of the Blessed Mother…not much.

 

[Peter_J]

EC…It has been said on this thread by a few Lutherans that the Lutheran denomination has valid Apostolic Succession in some synods. I believe Ben even went as far as to say that Rome has never declared otherwise. The Sun is yellow. Must I tell you it is yellow?

Let’s look at a few other faiths that declare to have valid Apostolic Succession. Rome has never declared otherwise with these either.

northernway.org/

“Bishop” Katia Romanov claims to have a valid Apostolic Succession in the Old Catholic tradition. If you believe that the Old Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and it is valid, then you must believe “Bishop” Katia also has valid Apostolic Succession. You can view the Apostolic Succession tab on the website for further details.

Now let us look at a priest that she ordained and granted her “AS” to. He currently runs an Independent Catholic Church in Florida. He claims to have valid Sacraments…etc…etc. His’ site saintpaulparish.org/ He claims to be a Catholic priest from attending her semi gnostic seminary online.

When you read about her seminary and religious views (I hope you do) you will gather that her Apostolic Succession is kind of a joke. Well not one that we should laugh about because it is taking people down a wrong path.

You claim that the ELCA has valid AS through the Old Catholic Church and the Episcopalians, but Rome does not recognize either priesthood as a valid one. So how can the ELCA be any different?

Is Apostilic Succession to be something that is handed out like girl scout cookie? I could go to the seminary at the link above and gain Apostolic Succession if we go by your view on it. Right?

Why is it that you speak so highly of Apostolic Succession but the majority, if not all, or the ELCA congregations here care as much about it as they do statues of the Blessed Mother…not much.

As I’ve said before, a *lot *of garbage on the internet (GOTI). I wonder if I should join “Internet Users Anonymous” …

P.S. By the way, what’s “the Lutheran denomination”?

 

[aidanbradypop]

As I’ve said before, a *lot *of garbage on the internet (GOTI). I wonder if I should join “Internet Users Anonymous” …

P.S. By the way, what’s “the Lutheran denomination”?

P.S.S. Lutheran faith. Better? lol

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EC…It has been said on this thread by a few Lutherans that the Lutheran denomination has valid Apostolic Succession in some synods. I believe Ben even went as far as to say that Rome has never declared otherwise. The Sun is yellow. Must I tell you it is yellow?

Let’s look at a few other faiths that declare to have valid Apostolic Succession. Rome has never declared otherwise with these either.

northernway.org/

“Bishop” Katia Romanov claims to have a valid Apostolic Succession in the Old Catholic tradition. If you believe that the Old Catholic Church has Apostolic Succession and it is valid, then you must believe “Bishop” Katia also has valid Apostolic Succession. You can view the Apostolic Succession tab on the website for further details.

Now let us look at a priest that she ordained and granted her “AS” to. He currently runs an Independent Catholic Church in Florida. He claims to have valid Sacraments…etc…etc. His’ site saintpaulparish.org/ He claims to be a Catholic priest from attending her semi gnostic seminary online.

When you read about her seminary and religious views (I hope you do) you will gather that her Apostolic Succession is kind of a joke. Well not one that we should laugh about because it is taking people down a wrong path.

You claim that the ELCA has valid AS through the Old Catholic Church and the Episcopalians, but Rome does not recognize either priesthood as a valid one. So how can the ELCA be any different?

Is Apostilic Succession to be something that is handed out like girl scout cookie? I could go to the seminary at the link above and gain Apostolic Succession if we go by your view on it. Right?

Why is it that you speak so highly of Apostolic Succession but the majority, if not all, or the ELCA congregations here care as much about it as they do statues of the Blessed Mother…not much.

You are, of-course, correct. The laity could care less about AS; even the clergy probably have more pressing matters to deal with than being a part of the historic episcopacy.

American Lutherans don’t trace AC through the Old Catholic Church. Ordinations of pastors and bishops in the ELCA were performed by the laying on of hands of either a European Lutheran or Episcopal bishop.

Some of the other Lutheran posters like Jotto can more intelligently argue and cite where the Apostolic Succession of the Churches of Sweden, Finland, Estonia, etc were never considered invalid by the Church of Rome.

 

[aidanbradypop]

You are, of-course, correct. The laity could care less about AS; even the clergy probably have more pressing matters to deal with than being a part of the historic episcopacy.

American Lutherans don’t trace AC through the Old Catholic Church. Ordinations of pastors and bishops in the ELCA were performed by the laying on of hands of either a European Lutheran or Episcopal bishop.

Some of the other Lutheran posters like Jotto can more intelligently argue and cite where the Apostolic Succession of the Churches of Sweden, Finland, Estonia, etc were never considered invalid by the Church of Rome.

Episcopal Bishops are invalid so those ordinations are also invalid. I have no clue on European Lutherans. I would have to see something from Rome that states they have a valid Apostolic Succession.

 

[GKC]

Episcopal Bishops are invalid so those ordinations are also invalid. I have no clue on European Lutherans. I would have to see something from Rome that states they have a valid Apostolic Succession.

When you said above that the RCC does not recognize the validity of the OC orders, what is your authority for that? Certainly, the point is getting more complicated as the OCs-Utrecht slide off the rails, but that is not the totality of the Old Catholics. And if your assertion is true (as it might be, for all I know), when was that judgment made? And why is the Dutch Touch issue not easily identifiable as a dead letter, instead of leaving folks like me to wonder what the RCC’s officail pronouncement on it might be?

Inquiring minds, etc, etc.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

I wish I had a time machine so I could ask Martin Luther’s opinion on the idea of Mary as “the feminine aspect of God”. I bet it would be quite interesting.

Knowing Luther’s penchant for hyperbole, I suspect he would scorch this.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

When you said above that the RCC does not recognize the validity of the OC orders, what is your authority for that? Certainly, the point is getting more complicated as the OCs-Utrecht slide off the rails, but that is not the totality of the Old Catholics. And if your assertion is true (as it might be, for all I know), when was that judgment made? And why is the Dutch Touch issue not easily identifiable as a dead letter, instead of leaving folks like me to wonder what the RCC’s officail pronouncement on it might be?

Inquiring minds, etc, etc.

GKC

I am not sure about the Old Catholics of Utrecht. I believe many of them do still infact have a valid priesthood and Apostolic Succession. I should have made myself more clear when speaking of the Old Catholics of America and all the other Independent Catholic branches that say they have Apostolic Succession from Utrecht. Many, if not all, the independent catholic branches in the USA are not in communion with Rome or Utrecht.

Here in Fargo, An RC priest left and joined an Idenpendent Catholic Church group. stodiliaancc.org/our-staff/ He is homosexual and wanted to be open with it and he found a branch that allowed such. Archbishop Aquila actually put out a message stating that if anyone took the “Eucharist” from this priest or attended a service there, they could be excommunicated. dl-online.com/content/fargo-church-targets-disenchanted-catholics-embraces-gays-0

So if they have Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, why excommunication?

You know what the Church says about the Anglicans. I would tend to side more with the Anglican having AS rather than OCC.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Knowing Luther’s penchant for hyperbole, I suspect he would scorch this.

Jon

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

 

[JonNC]

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

Let’s ask the historic Church. Let’s ask the Reformers. Let’s ask the Church both both East and West. The Blessed Virgin may have been there but that does not make her a priest. Seven years ago i attended the ordination of a pastor. My being therr did not make me a pastor.

Perhaps, since yours is the innovative position, show me from the scripture, the Lutheran Confessions and reformers, the ECF’s and early councils, that anyone at any time,prior to, say 1950, supports your view.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

My sense is that this issue will continue to be debated in the Church and that once cultural impairments are isolated that women will be welcomed into the priesthood across many denominational lines.

Quite frankly, why do you care either way if Catholics ordain women?
You’re not Catholic.
I ask this because the world seems fascinated with what we do.

 

[pablope]

I hope that this doesn’t sound too pedestrian, but if the Blessed Virgin, whom Lutherans refer to as the Mother of God was with the apostles at Pentecost, as Benedict XVI reaffirmed, how can women be excluded from the priesthood?

The BVM prayed with them, prayed for them. She had become their spiritual mother.

Besides, the priesthood, the sacrament of Holy Orders was not ordained at Pentecost.

Do you see the BVM saying mass after pentecost? Do you see the BVM preaching after pentecost?

 

[GKC]

I am not sure about the Old Catholics of Utrecht. I believe many of them do still infact have a valid priesthood and Apostolic Succession. I should have made myself more clear when speaking of the Old Catholics of America and all the other Independent Catholic branches that say they have Apostolic Succession from Utrecht. Many, if not all, the independent catholic branches in the USA are not in communion with Rome or Utrecht.

Here in Fargo, An RC priest left and joined an Idenpendent Catholic Church group. stodiliaancc.org/our-staff/ He is homosexual and wanted to be open with it and he found a branch that allowed such. Archbishop Aquila actually put out a message stating that if anyone took the “Eucharist” from this priest or attended a service there, they could be excommunicated. dl-online.com/content/fargo-church-targets-disenchanted-catholics-embraces-gays-0

So if they have Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, why excommunication?

You know what the Church says about the Anglicans. I would tend to side more with the Anglican having AS rather than OCC.

I am not in disagreement with this. As I said, there are Old Catholics, and then there are other Old Catholics.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

Here in Fargo, An RC priest left and joined an Idenpendent Catholic Church group. stodiliaancc.org/our-staff/ He is homosexual and wanted to be open with it and he found a branch that allowed such. Archbishop Aquila actually put out a message stating that if anyone took the “Eucharist” from this priest or attended a service there, they could be excommunicated. dl-online.com/content/fargo-church-targets-disenchanted-catholics-embraces-gays-0

Interesting. I’ve never known anyone excommunicated from Catholicism for receiving communion from a non-Catholic priest, although I have heard of similar in Orthodoxy (that is, someone being excommunicated from Orthodoxy for receiving communion from a non-Orthodox priest).

 

[aidanbradypop]

Interesting. I’ve never known anyone excommunicated from Catholicism for receiving communion from a non-Catholic priest, although I have heard of similar in Orthodoxy (that is, someone being excommunicated from Orthodoxy for receiving communion from a non-Orthodox priest).

Archbishop Aquila made it very clear and “drew the line in the sand” on the issue.

 

[Jotto]

women will never be ordained as priestesses in the Catholic Church. That has been infallibly defined by Pope John Paul II.

women are already qualified and worthy to represent Christ within the gathered community. They just can’t be ordained and consecrate the host. The Eucharistic sacrament requires proper matter and form. A woman is not able to represent Christ during the Consecration as she can’t be a bridegroom or a priest. A priestess is not a priest.

Hmmm, I’m wondering if you refer to women in the context of the priesthood of all believers, as “priestesses?” You know the way we used to, but no longer do, have a female noun for every career position that had a noun understood to denote a male, i.e. actor, actresses, host, hostess, And what do you do with the current translations of the Greek terms in the New Testament that are clearly male, i.e. “brethren,” when from the context it is clear that the writer has in mind all the faithful? (In this context, I find it painfully amusing that the authors of the current text of the daily Office do not hesitate to make the Magnificat gender neutral but in all the Biblical texts that are addressed to all the faithful, are happy to keep the male pronouns. Now what is that all about?

In regard to representing Christ in the role of president of the Eucharist, why do you think non-Judean men are adequate representatives, of black or yellow men? I understand that because you consider the pronouncement of the Magisterium on this matter to be infallible, you are going to hang on here come hell or high water. But I trust you are aware that the sensus fidelium is clearly shifting on this matter, infallible pronouncement or not. And the day is coming when this doctrine will be met with the same descendant silence that the doctrine concerning artificial birth control is now pretty much received.

Well we all have our burdens and inconsistencies to bear.

 

[Jotto]

they must be very uneducated Catholics. This matter has been decided for all time. The church does not have the authority to ordain women as priestesses.

Uneducated. No I suspect like a good number of well educated nuns and priests, they know and understand full well the teaching of the Magisterium on this matter but unable to make good sense of it, choose like a growing number of lay people, to, silently, dissent.