Do any Protestant communities have valid Apostolic Succession?

  • Thread starter Thread starter rfournier103
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The lack of accountability between bishops and presbyters and the people who they have been called to care for is not a little responsible for the serious problems the Roman Church has been having with sexually perverted leaders.
Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

And I must say, Jotto, without even having been here on the CAFs a month you have already invoked Godwin’s law. A dubious honor, to be sure.

Incidentally, the Church is not Roman, Jotto. The Catholic Church consists of 23 rites, all subject to the Bishop of Rome, of which the Latin, or Roman, rite is the most populous, but the Roman Catholic Church does not equal the Catholic Church.
 
Please refrain from attacks. It is counterproductive and reveals our ugly side on a forum about the holy Church.

One can not ignore what happens when sexual expression is suppressed. That is likely why Orthodox priests as well as all other Christian clergy are allowed to marry. It is a healthier condition for mankind.
 
One can not ignore what happens when sexual expression is suppressed. That is likely why Orthodox priests as well as all other Christian clergy are allowed to marry. It is a healthier condition for mankind.
Blaming celibacy for pedophilia is like blaming monogamy for adultery.

By your reasoning we should conclude that adultery happens because men are not allowed the sexual freedom to “sow their oats”. If we would only allow men the freedom to express themselves fully, and mate with all the women their biology wants them to mate with, we wouldn’t have the tragedy of adulterous relationships.

How do you respond to that, EC?
 
Blaming celibacy for pedophilia is like blaming monogamy for adultery.

By your reasoning we should conclude that adultery happens because men are not allowed the sexual freedom to “sow their oats”. If we would only allow men the freedom to express themselves fully, and mate with all the women their biology wants them to mate with, we wouldn’t have the tragedy of adulterous relationships.

How do you respond to that, EC?
Two words: Holy Matrimony
 
Two words: Holy Matrimony
But then I simply respond with: 2 words: Holy Celibacy.

If you believe that celibacy is the source of pedophilia, then you ought to be fighting against monogamy, in order to combat adultery.

Or, we could argue the consistent position which is: Holy Celibacy prevents pedophilia, just like Holy Matrimony (as you seem to be arguing) prevents adultery.

You cannot argue one without the other, EC.
 
*1 Kings 11:29 Now it happened at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite met him on the way; and he had clothed himself with a new garment, and the two were alone in the field. 30 Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31 And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32 (but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), 33 because they have forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. 34 However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes. 35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son’s hand and give it to you—ten tribes. 36 And to his son I will give one tribe, that My servant David may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen for Myself, to put My name there. 37 So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel. 38 Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you. 39 And I will afflict the descendants of David because of this, but not forever.’”

40 Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam. But Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt, to Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.*

While we can agree that God did establish His Church through the Apostle Peter; I can also see through the passage quoted above that He does not tolerate ungodly men leading His people. So while Jeroboam was not a descendant of David, and most certainly did not have Solomon’s blessing, he did have God’s blessing and authority to lead a given portion of God’s chosen people.

The Reformation came at a time when the Catholic Church was run by thieves. It spurred the Counter Reformation, where the Church finally woke up and began to clean up it’s act. I’m not saying that all that has been done in the name of Protestantism is godly; just like the ten tribes that followed Jeroboam ended up falling into sin and have disappeared forever.

I think it is only by the grace of God that He still works through ungodly leadership to touch His people. That however, is not the ONLY way that He works. Often enough He removes people out from under the ungodly leadership, and creates something new.

(And speaking as a Protestant, I’ve seen this time and again as we have more than our share of ungodly “leaders”.)
 
But then I simply respond with: 2 words: Holy Celibacy.

If you believe that celibacy is the source of pedophilia, then you ought to be fighting against monogamy, in order to combat adultery.

Or, we could argue the consistent position which is: Holy Celibacy prevents pedophilia, just like Holy Matrimony (as you seem to be arguing) prevents adultery.

You cannot argue one without the other, EC.
Celibacy is the absence from human physical affection and sexual fulfillment; the product of which we bring children into the world. Holy Matrimony is a sacrament. To deny oneself that sacrament by sacrificing sexual love and parenthood in order to serve the Church is a very high and honorable calling. Married priests have the insight and joyful experience that the Sacrament of Matrimony gives.
 
Teachings have not changed. Disciplinary practices have.

I trust you recall the “little argument” reported in the Book of Acts where the Church decided in contrast to what had been her practice, that it was no longer necessary to require Gentile men to be circumcised.

That’s an example of disciplinary practice.

Whether or not a man must be circumcised to be baptized is only a matter of discipline? You understand I trust that what is at stake here is not just circumcision but whether Christians were to keep the Law as good Jews? I think the Apostle would be very surprised to hear that this question was simply a matter of disciplinary practice. For Paul the whole truth of the Gospel was at stake here. Consider his letter to the Galatians.

The Church once tolerated slavery. Do we tolerate it anywhere now? But she never taught that slavery was good, and now it is bad.

There are, of course, more slaves in our world than ever before. But I know of no Church that attempts to justify this practice as did the bishops of the Spanish and Portuguese Churches to name only two of the worse offenders. Take a look at a biography of Fr. Bartolome’ de las Casas - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3%A9_de_las_Casas

The Church of the first two Centuries required that soldiers seeking baptism renounce their military commissions since the shedding of another’s blood was not compatible with Christian discipleship.

Source for this, please.

The foremost Catholic Biblical scholar who has dealt with the question of non-violence’s centrality in the New Testament is Fr. John L McKenzie. There is still dispute about the question of how the early Church regarded military service. Some hold that military service in the armies of Rome was avoided because of the idolatry involved. Others link the Church’s opposition to military service to such NT passages as Christ’s command to “Put away your sword…”

In any case from the Church’s early discouragement of military service as it can be seen in Canon 14 of Hippolytus: to writ:

“A Christian is not to become a soldier. A Christian must not become a soldier, unless he is compelled by a chief bearing the sword. He is not to burden himself with the sin of blood. But if he has shed blood, he is not to partake of the mysteries, unless he is purified by a punishment, tears, and wailing. He is not to come forward deceitfully but in the fear of God.”

to Pope Urban II’s call for the First Crusade a very significant doctrinal shift has taken place. No Early Church Father is to be found who with Augustine could uttered words like, '"…killing one’s enemy is acceptable as long as you love him while you are doing it".

Another shift occurred with Vatican II where the living of life non-violently was affirmed as a valid way of life not only for clerics but also for lay people. Before this, only the just war ethic of Ambrose and Augustine was seen as an acceptable Catholic way of deciding whether or not one could or should participate in a war.

Augustine’s just war doctrine imported by him and St. Ambrose from the pagan philosophy of stoicism remains the primary basis for making ethical judgments regarding war in today’s Church. But as you are no doubt well aware, recent popes have interpreted that doctrine so severely that it is hard to conceive of any modern war being adjudged as just. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, few American Catholic pastors have chosen to apply this interpretation of the doctrine to those wars that the United States has been involved in the last half century in their preaching and teaching. So the words of the Council’s documents however infallible the teachings of a Council might be consider can it seem, just as readily be ignored in the life of the Church.
 
Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

And I must say, Jotto, without even having been here on the CAFs a month you have already invoked Godwin’s law. A dubious honor, to be sure.

Incidentally, the Church is not Roman, Jotto. The Catholic Church consists of 23 rites, all subject to the Bishop of Rome, of which the Latin, or Roman, rite is the most populous, but the Roman Catholic Church does not equal the Catholic Church.
Thanks for he superficial dismissal. You apparently perceive my mentioning of the Roman Catholic Church’s failure to deal effectively with sexual abuse as a putdown. While I am critical of the Roman Catholic Church as I am also of my own Lutheran communities, my intent in this forum is not to put down or belittle as you suggest but to affirm, as many observers have, that these problems are structural in nature not simply a matter of individual moral failures. As we all known such failings occur in all religious groups. But in those churches where the laity has the formal authority to hold their clergy accountable, such failures are not so readily covered up. I’m sorry that I did not make this focus of my earlier comments clearer so that you could make a response relevant to my criticism.

As for your comment about my use of the term, “Roman Catholic” yes I am quite aware that the Catholic Church is a broader reality than the Roman or Latin Rite. My understanding of the term, “Catholic” is no doubt broader than your normal use of it. As for me it applies to all who in their confessions of faith confess the Ecumenical Creeds. Secondly my remarks are directly specifically to Roman Rite Catholics not all Catholics. I apologize for not making my usage of the term clear before now.
 
Yes, one must recognize that among all Christians, only Roman Catholics require celibacy for priests.
It isn’t clear how you are defining “Roman Catholics”, but this ^^ statement is incorrect.

If by “Roman Catholics” you mean all members of the Roman Communion (regardless of which Church or Rite they belong to) then the proper response is “No, it’s only in the Latin Church that priestly celibacy is required.”

If by “Roman Catholics” you mean Roman-*Rite *Catholics, then the proper response is “No, priestly celibacy is required in the whole Latin Church (not just the Roman-Rite, but also the Mozarabic Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, etc).”
 
As for your comment about my use of the term, “Roman Catholic” yes I am quite aware that the Catholic Church is a broader reality than the Roman or Latin Rite. My understanding of the term, “Catholic” is no doubt broader than your normal use of it. As for me it applies to all who in their confessions of faith confess the Ecumenical Creeds.
Borrowing from St. Augustine: it appears that everyone, including Jotto, wants to claim the name “Catholic”, but when someone comes to your town and asks where the nearest Catholic church is, no one will point him to your church.
 
It isn’t clear how you are defining “Roman Catholics”, but this ^^ statement is incorrect.

If by “Roman Catholics” you mean all members of the Roman Communion (regardless of which Church or Rite they belong to) then the proper response is “No, it’s only in the Latin Church that priestly celibacy is required.”

If by “Roman Catholics” you mean Roman-*Rite *Catholics, then the proper response is “No, priestly celibacy is required in the whole Latin Church (not just the Roman-Rite, but also the Mozarabic Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, etc).”
Some nuancing. Good.

GKC
 
Borrowing from St. Augustine: it appears that everyone, including Jotto, wants to claim the name “Catholic”, but when someone comes to your town and asks where the nearest Catholic church is, no one will point him to your church.
Of-course, there is no argument per your example. But the subject is Apostolic Succession. What Jotto and other non-Roman Catholics are pointing out is that the Church-Catholic goes well beyond what the sign reads in front of a parish. It is, rather, what goes on inside the church. My experience is that Roman Catholics feel right at home in Anglican and Lutheran churches where the historic Mass is celebrated.
 
Celibacy is the absence from human physical affection and sexual fulfillment; the product of which we bring children into the world. Holy Matrimony is a sacrament. To deny oneself that sacrament by sacrificing sexual love and parenthood in order to serve the Church is a very high and honorable calling.
You are aware, EC, that Holy Orders is a sacrament, yes?

Regardless, the point remains that it’s absurd to blame celibacy for pedophelia, just as it is absurd to blame monogamy for adultery.

A consistent argument rejects both celibacy **and **monogamy (by which you would be arguing for polyamorous relationships??? :eek:)

or

accepts that one has very little to do with the other.
Married priests have the insight and joyful experience that the Sacrament of Matrimony gives.
True. But that’s what a marriage counselor is for.

Incidentally, I wouldn’t want to go to a marriage counselor only if he had beaten his wife if I were suffering from domestic abuse.

I wouldn’t want to only see a doctor who had had cancer, if I got cancer.

I wouldn’t only want to see a rape counselor who had been previously raped.

I don’t call Poison Control and ask to only speak to a RN who has ingested poison before I’ll take their advice.
 
You are aware, EC, that Holy Orders is a sacrament, yes?

Regardless, the point remains that it’s absurd to blame celibacy for pedophelia, just as it is absurd to blame monogamy for adultery.

A consistent argument rejects both celibacy **and **monogamy (by which you would be arguing for polyamorous relationships??? :eek:)

or

accepts that one has very little to do with the other.

True. But that’s what a marriage counselor is for.

Incidentally, I wouldn’t want to go to a marriage counselor only if he had beaten his wife if I were suffering from domestic abuse.

I wouldn’t want to only see a doctor who had had cancer, if I got cancer.

I wouldn’t only want to see a rape counselor who had been previously raped.

I don’t call Poison Control and ask to only speak to a RN who has ingested poison before I’ll take their advice.
Fully aware that Holy Orders is a sacrament; even the Augsburg Confession agrees. But Holy Orders does not always mean celibacy even among Roman Catholics [ie deacons, exceptions for previously married men seeking the priesthood].
 
Whether or not a man must be circumcised to be baptized is only a matter of discipline?
Yep. It definitely was NOT a doctrine/dogma/teaching.

Unless you want to offer a Magisterial document that declares that “A man must be circumcised before he is baptized”. (Please do not proffer unauthorized conjecture.)

I, of course, will provide the Magisterial document that declares “It is not necessary for a man to be circumcised prior to baptism”…

and then we can discuss whether the Church has changed this teaching.
 
Fully aware that Holy Orders is a sacrament; even the Augsburg Confession agrees. But Holy Orders does not always mean celibacy even among Roman Catholics [ie deacons, exceptions for previously married men seeking the priesthood].
Fair enough.

So how is it that you do not argue against monogamy, if you believe that celibacy contributes to pedophilia? Does not monogamy also contribute to adultery?
 
Teachings have not changed. Disciplinary practices have.

I trust you recall the “little argument” reported in the Book of Acts where the Church decided in contrast to what had been her practice, that it was no longer necessary to require Gentile men to be circumcised.

That’s an example of disciplinary practice.

Whether or not a man must be circumcised to be baptized is only a matter of discipline? You understand I trust that what is at stake here is not just circumcision but whether Christians were to keep the Law as good Jews? I think the Apostle would be very surprised to hear that this question was simply a matter of disciplinary practice. For Paul the whole truth of the Gospel was at stake here. Consider his letter to the Galatians.

The Church once tolerated slavery. Do we tolerate it anywhere now? But she never taught that slavery was good, and now it is bad.

There are, of course, more slaves in our world than ever before. But I know of no Church that attempts to justify this practice as did the bishops of the Spanish and Portuguese Churches to name only two of the worse offenders. Take a look at a biography of Fr. Bartolome’ de las Casas - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3%A9_de_las_Casas

The Church of the first two Centuries required that soldiers seeking baptism renounce their military commissions since the shedding of another’s blood was not compatible with Christian discipleship.

Source for this, please.

The foremost Catholic Biblical scholar who has dealt with the question of non-violence’s centrality in the New Testament is Fr. John L McKenzie. There is still dispute about the question of how the early Church regarded military service. Some hold that military service in the armies of Rome was avoided because of the idolatry involved. Others link the Church’s opposition to military service to such NT passages as Christ’s command to “Put away your sword…”

In any case from the Church’s early discouragement of military service as it can be seen in Canon 14 of Hippolytus: to writ:

“A Christian is not to become a soldier. A Christian must not become a soldier, unless he is compelled by a chief bearing the sword. He is not to burden himself with the sin of blood. But if he has shed blood, he is not to partake of the mysteries, unless he is purified by a punishment, tears, and wailing. He is not to come forward deceitfully but in the fear of God.”

to Pope Urban II’s call for the First Crusade a very significant doctrinal shift has taken place. No Early Church Father is to be found who with Augustine could uttered words like, '"…killing one’s enemy is acceptable as long as you love him while you are doing it".

Another shift occurred with Vatican II where the living of life non-violently was affirmed as a valid way of life not only for clerics but also for lay people. Before this, only the just war ethic of Ambrose and Augustine was seen as an acceptable Catholic way of deciding whether or not one could or should participate in a war.

Augustine’s just war doctrine imported by him and St. Ambrose from the pagan philosophy of stoicism remains the primary basis for making ethical judgments regarding war in today’s Church. But as you are no doubt well aware, recent popes have interpreted that doctrine so severely that it is hard to conceive of any modern war being adjudged as just. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, few American Catholic pastors have chosen to apply this interpretation of the doctrine to those wars that the United States has been involved in the last half century in their preaching and teaching. So the words of the Council’s documents however infallible the teachings of a Council might be consider can it seem, just as readily be ignored in the life of the Church.
Jotto, would you mind learning how to use the quote feature please? The way you are responding now makes my words appear to be yours.

There are numerous threads here which provide simple explanations for how to do this. Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top