Do any Protestant communities have valid Apostolic Succession?

[benjohnson]

In order for it to be valid, the Church must say as much and nothing has ever been said.

Good old Roman law!

If anyone knows of a document on the issue then please share.

I’ve looked and came up empty-handed.

 

[benjohnson]

Am I to take it then you, as a LCMS Lutheran don’t find it important then?
That’s what I understood from the LCMS. I stand corrected if I’m wrong,

It’s penultimately important, but not so urgent that we should seek it form those we find heterodox. In my opinion.

It did seem very important to a Lutheran here but I believe that Lutheran may have
been ELCA.
Mary.

This is my opinion: The ELCA desperately seeks legitimacy to balance out their heterodoxy, and is in danger of turning the church into an idol. This is my opinion though, not my judgement.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Actually, the PNCC has very good relations with the RCC (also with the Orthodox, although that’s off-topic). So much so that a member of PNCC can receive communion in an RC parish.

That is just a recent thing correct?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Good old Roman law!

I’ve looked and came up empty-handed.

Canon Law to be correct lol

Apostolic Succession is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination and since the Church states that Lutherans do not have a valid priesthood…the buck stops there.

 

[steido01]

Am I to take it then you, as a LCMS Lutheran don’t find it important then?
That’s what I understood from the LCMS. I stand corrected if I’m wrong,

It did seem very important to a Lutheran here but I believe that Lutheran may have
been ELCA.
Mary.

As Jon pointed out, AS was important to the early Lutheran church and remains so today. Sadly, some more ‘modern’ church bodies have relegated AS to be nothing more than a centuries-old game of tag, with each player able to say, “See, look! We’re Apostolic!” For this reason, the LCMS has tended to understand professing the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic faith to be more about maintaining the unchanged teachings of the Apostles, than about maintaining a physical touch-chain. Frankly, if the teaching ain’t right, it ain’t Apostolic Succession.

 

[MaryT777]

It’s penultimately important, but not so urgent that we should seek it form those we find heterodox. In my opinion.

This is my opinion: The ELCA desperately seeks legitimacy to balance out their heterodoxy, and is in danger of turning the church into an idol. This is my opinion though, not my judgement.

Certainly plausible.

 

[steido01]

It’s penultimately important, but not so urgent that we should seek it form those we find heterodox. In my opinion.

This is my opinion: The ELCA desperately seeks legitimacy to balance out their heterodoxy, and is in danger of turning the church into an idol. This is my opinion though, not my judgement.

:sad_yes: This certainly seems to be a reasonable opinion. I agree.

Without right teaching, AS is not A and the LCMS should not pursue it.

 

[MaryT777]

:sad_yes: This certainly seems to be a reasonable opinion. I agree.

Without right teaching, AS is not A and the LCMS should not pursue it.

I concur it could be reasonable. It’s an interesting thought.

 

[MaryT777]

Canon Law to be correct lol

Apostolic Succession is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination and since the Church states that Lutherans do not have a valid priesthood…the buck stops there.

Yep.

 

[pablope]

As Jon pointed out, AS was important to the early Lutheran church and remains so today. Sadly, some more ‘modern’ church bodies have relegated AS to be nothing more than a centuries-old game of tag, with each player able to say, “See, look! We’re Apostolic!”

Authority…where is it when you need it…

For this reason, the LCMS has tended

 

[JonNC]

=benjohnson;10917818]It’s penultimately important, but not so urgent that we should seek it form those we find heterodox. In my opinion.

Indeed.

This is my opinion: The ELCA desperately seeks legitimacy to balance out their heterodoxy, and is in danger of turning the church into an idol. This is my opinion though, not my judgement.

My sense, looking back at the “Call to Common Mission”, was that the ELCA did the AS part mainly because it was pretty much expected by the Episcopal Church in order to be able to share altar and pulpit. There were those in the clergy that opposed it, but it was the only way to make it happen.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Authority…where is it when you need it…

…Who is the authority in Lutherans to decide what ain’t right and what is right that everyone can agree with?

You really like pounding this one home, don’t you pablope? We Lutherans are content with Scripture as our authority, and I won’t go off topic in another thread.

But the touchy feelings, and the touch chain were, and continues to be an important of the AS, the actual laying of hands…in both OC and CC.

Lutheran ordinations also require the laying on of hands, just as the early church did:

“The whole matter depends on whether the congregation and the bishop are in accord, that is, whether the congregation wishes to be taught by the bishop and the bishop is willing to teach the congregation. This willingness settles the matter. The laying on of hands blesses, ratifies, and witnesses this agreement as a notary public and witnesses testify to a secular matter and as a pastor in blessing groom and bride ratifies their marriage and testifies that they have previously taken one another and made this public.” - Of the Power and Jurisdiction of Bishops, Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, Smalcald Articles

 

[Peter_J]

I do not doubt you. In fact, I had kind of assumed that the RCC did not acknowledge any of the consecrations made by Lutheran bishops during/after the Reformation to be valid continuations of AS… but has the RCC ever specifically stated that their lines are no longer valid, or was it all assumed to be so after Trent, etc.? I’ve been consulting Google for whatever document that might address the issue, but no avail!

Nit-picking, I know, but I’m just curious. If the Lutheran lines were never officially considered broken, it could ease a potential point of conflict should reunion ever happen. Maybe I’ll contact the local cannon experts…

We generally don’t have official statements that such-and-such non-Catholic group doesn’t have valid sacraments. (I’m not even entirely sure why Pope Leo XIII did it that one time.) We do definitely say that certain groups (ACoE, PNCC, and the Orthodox) do have valid sacraments.

 

[Peter_J]

That is just a recent thing correct?

Fairly. Limited inter-communion with the PNCC began in 1996.

 

[Peter_J]

You really like pounding this one home, don’t you pablope? We Lutherans are content with Scripture as our authority, and I won’t go off topic in another thread.

Good idea. I hate to see every thread turn into a duplicate of the one before.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Fairly. Limited inter-communion with the PNCC began in 1996.

I know in RCIA it becomes a headache a lot of times.

 

[pablope]

You really like pounding this one home, don’t you pablope? We Lutherans are content with Scripture as our authority, and I won’t go off topic in another thread.

Well…even some Lutheran synods cannot agree on various interpretations of scripture…so how can scripture exercise authority?

Lutheran ordinations also require the laying on of hands, just as the early church did:

 

[Peter_J]

Did you use to be in the PNCC?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Did you use to be in the PNCC?

Nope. In RCIA class in the Diocese it often becomes in issue. They feel they should not have to take them. Etc

 

[Rugbeia_Vitae]

The Anglican/Episcopal Church however has “bishops.” After an investigation, in the 1890s the Pope declared that Anglicanism lacks valid orders–that is they have neither priests nor bishops.

What investigation?
Is it because of fealty?