Do Atheists have a reasonable doubt?

  • Thread starter Thread starter IWantGod
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It is obvious that creation requires time.
It’s not obvious at all. What is obvious is that in principle the creation of time would require something that is not definable in physical terms. It cannot be a temporal cause. It cannot be a physical cause. it cannot be something that is spatial or limited to physical dimensions.

So arguing that there cannot be a cause before time is to simply assume that all causes are limited to a before and after. But it is entirely possible for a non-physical cause to exist simultaneously with it’s effect, precisely because it is not physical.

If you are going to argue that change or time can exist without a cause, you have to justify that because…
  1. Out of absolutely nothing comes absolutely nothing
  2. One cannot explain the existence of change without inferencing the existence of something that is not changing.
Otherwise you are just arguing for a brute fact, that change is just there for no reason, that a potential became actual by itself from nothing at all.
 
Last edited:
I need to justify a mind set? I need to justify why I feel as I do? No. I don’t.
That is a very freeing mindset that I’ve also come to embrace in my later years.

Obviously, a person who styles himself ‘IWantGod’ likely has a different mindset, but, hey, IDIC and all that.
 
Obviously, a person who styles himself ‘IWantGod’ likely has a different mindset, but, hey, IDIC and all that.
Well, i don’t wear my beliefs like a fashion symbol. I aspire to be a reasonable person and so i try my very best to not simply have a “mind set”. Some people are merely culturally christian, they are so because there parents were Christian and they trust their parents to define reality for them. But i wouldn’t be happy with believing merely for the sake of believing; i never have. I aspire to have an intelligible view of what i experience;…and yes, I Want God.🙂
 
Last edited:
It’s not obvious at all. What is obvious is that in principle the creation of time would require something that is not definable in physical terms. It cannot be a temporal cause. It cannot be a physical cause. it cannot be something that is spatial or limited to physical dimensions.

So arguing that there cannot be a cause before time is to simply assume that all causes are limited to a before and after. But it is entirely possible for a non-physical cause to exist simultaneously with it’s effect, precisely because it is not physical.
Was there a point that only God existed? Yes or no?
If you are going to argue that change or time can exist without a cause, you have to justify that because…
What I am arguing is that time cannot have a cause. Any change of course needs a mind.
  1. Out of absolutely nothing comes absolutely nothing
The sum of any positive quantity of something, such as energy, with the same amount of negative quantity of the same thing is nothing/zero. This mean that you could have something and then nothing. I don’t see why the opposite cannot be true.
  1. One cannot explain the existence change without inferencing the existence of something that is not changing.
Material in fact do not change when they move. Their nature/essence does not change when they move. It is the mistake that Aristotle made to think that matter’s nature/essence is subject to the change when it moves.
Otherwise you are just arguing for a brute fact, that change is just there for no reason, that a potential became actual by itself from nothing at all.
Motion in fact can be the result of having a specific nature/essence which this doesn’t change. Therefore, a thing can be subject to motion without any need for sustainer.
 
Last edited:
Was there a point that only God existed? Yes or no?
It’s meaningless to suggest that there was a point where only God as a cause existed. God is not physical. Again, you are placing God in a temporal physical context and asking him to play by the rules of your game. God’s existence is simultaneous with his effect. There wasn’t a before creation.
What I am arguing is that time cannot have a cause.
Your argument fails because it is ultimately semantics. You are saying that time exists because there was not a time before it, but that statement in itself does not explain why time exists, it just means that it cannot have a physical cause. Saying that there was no universe before the universe doesn’t mean that it’s existence is necessary or not contingent and i think i have done my part in explaining why it isn’t necessary.
The sum of any positive quantity of something, such as energy, which can cancel out the same amount of negative quantity of the same thing is nothing/zero.
This is not a metaphysical statement and so it doesn’t refer to the philosophical concept of absolutely nothing; but you knew that right.
This mean that you could have something and then nothing. I don’t see why the opposite cannot be true.
It cannot be true because it is absolutely nothing, and absolutely nothing is the antithesis of something. If something were to come out of absolutely nothing without a cause it would contradict the fact that it is nothing. In other-words you would have to throw reason out of the window to accept that possibility. I wonder why you would do that?
Material in fact do not change when they move. Their nature/essence does not change when they move. It is the mistake that Aristotle made to think that matter’s nature/essence is subject to the change when it moves.
This is a straw-man please read some more of Aquinas and Aristotle.
Change in fact can be the result of having a specific nature/essence which this doesn’t change. Therefore, a thing can be subject to motion without any need for sustainer.
Having a particular nature can give you the ability to move spontaneously from a state of rest. But we are not talking about change in that sense. We are talking about what change involves on a metaphysical level, and in principle it involves the actualisation of potential reality, of that which was not. It is a progression of a reality made possible by the reception of more reality, regardless of the fact that some form or essence endures.

But a thing cannot cause change to exist and at the same time be subject to change. You cannot potentially exist and necessarily exist at the same time. That which is changing is made of parts, or states or natures that do not necessarily exist, which contradicts the necessity of it’s existence since each part is receiving existence.
 
Last edited:
Out of absolutely nothing comes absolutely nothing
Do we know that there was ever absolutely nothing? (I really don’t know). I thought that this is an assumption, a reasonable one, but also a kind of brute fact. I’m more than willing to just state that I don’t know.
 
It’s meaningless to suggest that there was a point where only God as a cause existed. God is not physical. Again, you are placing God in a temporal physical context and asking him to play by the rules of your game. God’s existence is simultaneous with his effect. There wasn’t a before creation.
So, you are saying that the creation exists and exists not simultaneously? That is logically impossible.
Your argument fails because it is ultimately semantics. You are saying that time exists because there was not a time before it, but that statement in itself does not explain why time exists, it just means that it cannot have a physical cause. Saying that there was no universe before the universe doesn’t mean that it’s existence is necessary or not contingent and i think i have done my part in explaining why it isn’t necessary.
No, I am not saying that (bold part). I am saying that the creating of time is a change. Any change requires time. Therefore, one needs time in order to create time which this is logically impossible.
This is not a metaphysical statement and so it doesn’t refer to the philosophical concept of absolutely nothing; but you knew that right.
That is a correct statement. In fact, that is Hawking statement which states that negative gravitational energy cancels out the positive energy of mass, therefore, you could have something from nothing. To me, this is physically feasible. What do you think?
It cannot be true because it is absolutely nothing, and absolutely nothing is the antithesis of something. If something were to come out of absolutely nothing without a cause it would contradict the fact that it is nothing. In other-words you would have to throw reason out of the window to accept that possibility. I wonder why you would do that?
You need to think of the situation that you have two things out of nothing. Those two things can come from nothing and exist separately if they cancel each other when they merged together.
This is a straw-man please read some more of Aquinas and Aristotle.
So, you think that material change when they move? They don’t change. Therefore, there is no need for a sustainer.
Having a particular nature can give you the ability to move spontaneously from a state of rest. But we are not talking about change in that sense. We are talking about what change involves on a metaphysical level, and in principle it involves the actualisation of potential reality, of that which was not. It is a progression of a reality made possible by the reception of more reality, regardless of the fact that some form or essence endures.
What is that metaphysical change?
 
Do we know that there was ever absolutely nothing? (I really don’t know). I thought that this is an assumption, a reasonable one, but also a kind of brute fact. I’m more than willing to just state that I don’t know.
But we can know. There was never absolutely nothing because there is something. Also there is more we can know, for example if absolutely nothing is a possibility, then it follows necessarily that all beings are contingent. But it is not possible for there to exist only beings that receive their existence because that would mean they ultimately receive their existence from nothing at all, for the simple fact that there is no giver of reality, only receivers or mediators. Therefore absolutely nothing is not an ontological possibility, and a necessary act of existence that gives reality to contingent beings must exist and can never not exist.

There is no assumption here, only the acknowledgement that somethings are truly impossible, such as something coming out of absolutely nothing without a cause - hence out of nothing, nothing comes.
 
Last edited:
This is going to get way over my head. Once again though, you are extrapolating from our reality to before reality began. Like I said, that’s a rational proposal but we have no idea what reality or our universe was before it was here. We don’t know this. We just define this as true.
 
Once again though, you are extrapolating from our reality to before reality began.
You mean the being we call the universe. I am talking about the general fact of what it means for things to exist, not if there is a physical existence before the big bang.

A thing cannot begin to exist without the existence of some being to give it reality because out of nothing comes nothing, and this is true regardless of whether or not there was nothing before the big bang. The big-bang is really irrelevant.

It is not a possibility that there was ever absolutely nothing.
 
Last edited:
That there was ever absolutely nothing, among other things.
  1. Out of absolutely nothing comes absolutely nothing because it is nothing at all.
  2. Something exists
Conclusion; There was never absolutely nothing.
 
You are basing that on everything you know. What about things you don’t know?
 
Discussions like this remind me of the Isaac Asimov short story “The Last Question,” which I first read in a pulp science fiction magazine in the 1950’s. However, theists would not concur with the thesis of the story.

Site Builder Training
S’been a loooong time since I read that. Great story

There was anither similar one - can’t recall the author, when he described the growth in power of computers over millions of years. Long story short, man discovered how to link planet sized computers and then galaxy sized ones. And eventually worked out how to turn the universe itself into a computer.

So they thought the best question to ask it was: Is there a God?

And the answer came back immediately. ‘Yes. There is now’.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top