Do bishops have concerns over Ad Orientum

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I have been trying to find out why it is rare for priests to celebrate the OF Mass ad orientum. Whenever I find out about certain priests or bishops that turn around during the mass, it is usually related to reading the Holy Father’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”. In the book he calls for Catholics once again to reorient their prayers towards the East, or liturgical east in the case of the Mass. I love both forms of the mass, yet I think most will agree that the OF has much potential to be a reverent form of the mass. Personally, one thing I think that would add to the reverence is for the priest to face ad orientum (just my opinion), as well as making weekly use of incense and bells. Yet, I wonder why this doesn’t occur, especially after all Pope Benedict XVI has said with regards to bringing a reform of the reform of the Mass. I wonder if some priests may want to, but feel that it may go against the wishes of their bishops? Any thoughts? If there are any priests or religious on this forum, I would be interested to also hear your thoughts.
 
If you ask me, where the priest is facing is the least of their worries.
 
I just want to understand the OP definition of ad orientem. Is that the physical east? Is simply turning their backs to the people? Is that facing the tabernacle? What is your definition of the Liturgical East in the case of the Mass? I am asking because ad orientem could be all of the above at the same time and none of the above when taken individually.
 
Cristiano said:
I just want to understand the OP definition of ad orientem. Is that the physical east? Is simply turning their backs to the people? Is that facing the tabernacle? What is your definition of the Liturgical East in the case of the Mass? I am asking because ad orientem could be all of the above at the same time and none of the above when taken individually.
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Well… I speak of it like we would see at an EF Mass. Really that the priest faces the same way as the laypeople. Yet, from reading Spirit of the Liturgy, I believe the HF would say it is a good thing that the designated direction faces East.
 
codefro said:
Well… I speak of it like we would see at an EF Mass. Really that the priest faces the same way as the laypeople. Yet, from reading Spirit of the Liturgy, I believe the HF would say it is a good thing that the designated direction faces East.
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I understand but the EF is not the OF and we also must remember that some liturgical behaviors came from circumstances and not theology. For example I still believe that the main reason of the priest giving the back to the people is coming from the private Masses on the side altars and it stayed there when it became the Mass with few people. The ad orientem Mass in St. John in Lateran (Papal Basilica) was facing the people., in St. Peter too. I want to reassure you that I do not disagree with your wishes, I just think that sometimes we look at smaller things and miss the big ones. I wish that the ad orientem direction were the biggest concern for the OF. I think that lack of consistency on the basics is still the biggest problem even within the same parish and even with the same priest.
 
codefro said:
I have been trying to find out why it is rare for priests to celebrate the OF Mass ad orientum. Whenever I find out about certain priests or bishops that turn around during the mass, it is usually related to reading the Holy Father’s “Spirit of the Liturgy”. In the book he calls for Catholics once again to reorient their prayers towards the East, or liturgical east in the case of the Mass. I love both forms of the mass, yet I think most will agree that the OF has much potential to be a reverent form of the mass. Personally, one thing I think that would add to the reverence is for the priest to face ad orientum (just my opinion), as well as making weekly use of incense and bells. Yet, I wonder why this doesn’t occur, especially after all Pope Benedict XVI has said with regards to bringing a reform of the reform of the Mass. I wonder if some priests may want to, but feel that it may go against the wishes of their bishops? Any thoughts? If there are any priests or religious on this forum, I would be interested to also hear your thoughts.
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The OF is already a reverent form of the Mass. What do you mean by it has potential to be a reverent form?

If there is irreverence, it is not the fault of the Mass, rather of those acting irreverently. And i admit, that does happen. But I don’t think it has anything to do with the way the priest is facing.
 
CB_Catholic said:
The OF is already a reverent form of the Mass. What do you mean by it has potential to be a reverent form?

If there is irreverence, it is not the fault of the Mass, rather of those acting irreverently. And i admit, that does happen. But I don’t think it has anything to do with the way the priest is facing.
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True, I am not saying that the priest turning around automatically makes the mass more reverent. What I am speculating are aspects that could develop in the OF that are informed by the EF- like the HF has been talking about this whole time. I just notice that there is a minority of priests beginning to celebrate the mass in this fashion, yet I wonder if there is a reason why it is only a miniscule number? After all, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the current missal set up with the assumption that the priest is already facing ad orientum during the Mass? Genuine question, I am not positive on that fact.
 
Maybe this is why the Byzantine Rite has the iconostas. The priest I was talking with the other day told me how he convinced his parishioners to put an iconostas. “Which would you rather be looking at, an icon of Christ or the back of my head?”
 
Cristiano,

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, you see Mass offered facing the same direction as the people. How can we say that this universal posture comes from behavior at side altars in Roman churches?

People get too centered on Roman basilicas (which are far from the norm because they were so restricted by geography) and translate that onto all the rites of the Church throughout the world. There’s no justification for that that I have ever seen. When multiple patriarchates show the same behavior, we have to conclude that it was either apostolic or very close to that.
 
Windmill said:
Cristiano,

In the Eastern Orthodox Churches, you see Mass offered facing the same direction as the people. How can we say that this universal posture comes from behavior at side altars in Roman churches?

People get too centered on Roman basilicas (which are far from the norm because they were so restricted by geography) and translate that onto all the rites of the Church throughout the world. There’s no justification for that that I have ever seen. When multiple patriarchates show the same behavior, we have to conclude that it was either apostolic or very close to that.
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The main priest will face the same direction as the people. Concelebrants will surround the table and will be facing in different directions. Or, you can say they are all facing the table.
 
codefro said:
Well… I speak of it like we would see at an EF Mass. Really that the priest faces the same way as the laypeople. Yet, from reading Spirit of the Liturgy, I believe the HF would say it is a good thing that the designated direction faces East.
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It depends on where the church is located. For many churches in Rome, physical and liturgical east and thus celebrating ad orientem means facing, well, the people. St. Peter’s is one of those.
 
OraLabora said:
It depends on where the church is located. For many churches in Rome, physical and liturgical east and thus celebrating ad orientem means facing, well, the people. St. Peter’s is one of those.
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Ok… and the rest of the churches in the world? I notice the arguments keep going to the cathedrals in Rome…
 
ConstantineTG said:
Maybe this is why the Byzantine Rite has the iconostas. The priest I was talking with the other day told me how he convinced his parishioners to put an iconostas. “Which would you rather be looking at, an icon of Christ or the back of my head?”
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Interesting So in the Orthodox liturgy the Priest faces in the same direction as the congregation. I assume this has been the practice for quite some time maybe from the start. The same exists in the Coptic liturgies again apparently for centuries, as well as in the Roman Church until very recently,

It seems that this posture was more or less universal in the early Churches. What was the pressing need for a change anyway?
 
I didn’t mean to take this thread off topic.

To the OP’s question: I think a lot of priests just don’t want a lot of nasty letters to the bishop over something they’d consider trivial. I’d bet that many priests are not in a position to explain the rationale for ad orientem and, as such, don’t feel that it is something that could be successful. To make that type of change, you have to catechize the people well and prepare them for it.

On the flip side, those priests that see the value of this liturgical posture and really want to [re-]introduce it, they study up on it and gradually bring it to the people (example: holy days or special occasions, then work up to an early Sunday Mass, then finally make it a standard practice). This tends to be more warmly-received.

However, you will always have those in a parish (usually the Old Guard who have been there forever and consider the priest a visitor) who will stir up a rebellion regardless of how the majority of parishioners feel, and those few letters to the bishop will elicit a phone call to the parish priest. If the priest is prepared for this, it is usually not a big deal, but if he is not, then it is a hill he’d rather not die on.
 
Mike30 said:
Interesting So in the Orthodox liturgy the Priest faces in the same direction as the congregation. I assume this has been the practice for quite some time maybe from the start. The same exists in the Coptic liturgies again apparently for centuries, as well as in the Roman Church until very recently,

It seems that this posture was more or less universal in the early Churches. What was the pressing need for a change anyway?
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At least in Byzantine history, the priest faces the table from whence he enters. In the early Church the table was in the middle of the room. So it depends on where you stand, the priest could be facing towards you or away from your or to the left or to the right. Then when the table was moved to one side of the room, when they started having more formal churches when the persecutions were ending, I guess it was just natural that the priest again just faces the same direction as he was when he approached the altar. Of course as I said in the Byzantine rite if there is more than one clergy they will surround the Holy Table rather than all be on one side. In the OF you will have all concelebrants on one side facing the people. In the Byzantine rite the main celebrant will be facing away from the people but the concelebrants will occupy the sides first, and then the back. So depends on how many concelebrants and how big the Holy Table is, it is concievable that some priests may be facing the people.
 
From the Didascalia Apostolorum (The colored portion is the redactor’s comment.)
…Let the place of the priests be separated in a part of the house that faces east. In the midst of them is placed the bishop’s chair, and with him let the priests be seated. Likewise, and in another section let the lay men be seated facing east. For thus it is proper: that the priests sit with the bishop in a part of the house to the east and after them the lay men and the lay women, and when you stand to pray, the ecclessial leaders rise first, and after them the lay men, and again, then the women. Now, you ought to face to east to pray for, as you know, scripture has it, Give praise to God who ascends above the highest heavens to the east. Again note, Mass was NOT celebrated facing the people as some suppose of the early Church. Everyone was to face to the east, clergy and people. Everyone faced one direction. The text cites Scripture as the reason for this. God is to the East, the origin of the light.]
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