Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[po18guy]

Well if you read my other posts I have said that we confess our sins to one another if we have sinnes against that person so your authority statement is null and void. When I confess my sins to God I go through Jesus. I say at the end of my confession “this I ask through your son Jesus Christ.” So I don’t bypass Jesus as you claim. But If Jesus is our mediator then why do you need a priest of mediate for you to Jesus? Can’t you go to the ONLY mediator to God who is Jesus Christ instead of going through a priest to go to Jesus to God?
I didn’t walk away from the Bible, you misunderstood things and assumed things.

Apologies for what I misunderstood and assumed. BUT, did Jesus give His Apostles power over sin (in the bible) or not? Of course, He did. Was it for nothing? Of course, not. Did they pass that authority on or not? Yes, they did. The question is not why Catholics have confessed to a priest for almost 2,000 years. The question is why you do not. You have never heard the words of absolution, like Jesus spoke into the ears of those whom He forgave. If I were you, I would know that I am missing something, since it is in the bible. Imagine: “Your sins are forgiven” What a sweet sound to the soul!

 

[david_ruiz]

I am going to make this very easy for you - Their is a difference between a disciple (a follower of Christ) who is baptized and Confirmed and a presbyter which is a word in the Bible a long with deacon and bishop. The presbyters were actually made up of the 12 disciples their that were given the power to retain and forgive sins.

The only real unforgiveable sins - a sin against the Holy Spirit - meaning - one where a person has chosen Satan over the Lord or one that they refuse to ask forgiveness for.

When we evangelize which in all Christian faiths is a Christian duty we evangelize to both the Church and Christ - check Ephesians 5 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. The Magisterium of the Church is the Apostolic Succession of Christ giving Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. This is a short answer to all that- but it is a start. If you really want to know - Iwould suggest picking up a Catechism - I think it will suprise you to find footnotes of Bible verses - where you don’t find footnotes Bible verses you will find footnotes to Councils that will have footnotes to Bible verses.

It is 2000 years of some of the best minds taking the Bible and arguing this stuff out and placing it in language that can be read and understood.

God bless,

Thanks .I understand the differing of offices or giftings ,as in parts of the body.However , no where does it say you can not teach a little ,evangelize a little ,minister a little, prophesy a little , with the gifting ,the faith that you have .Othrwise one might be putting their light under a bushel. If you are greatly gifted in one or more of those areas , perhaps you might be made a deacon or teacher or bishop .In another sense all these things pertain to the great commission ,for which He uses His entire body. A disciple is disciple is a disiple . Do you stop at being confirmed ? Do you evangelize ? Do you leave the work up to a presbyter ? I thought a presbyter equips or watches over those that are “working in the fields”. I disagree that the commision is just for presbyters , bishops. We are all priests , with a presbyter over us and Christ as the head over all of us. This is agreed upon both by Catholics and Protetstants…
If lay people , Christ’s disciples, do not evangelize, then indeed you need priests to retain or forgive sins . But , if you evangelize , what is your message ? Do you talk of forgivenes of sins by the Blood , of judgement to come. You admit we agree that saying no to His forgiveness, is unforgiveable,and they are left in their sins. Is not that what retain means , their sins are “retained” ? Do we not agree on this ,and leave the issue of priests aside for a moment ?

 

[po18guy]

Howdy .You sound like a solo scriptura pro .I have not read Catholic interpretation of how Jesus forgave in the bible ,but at least we agree He did .I guess we just disagree on how Jesus does it now . You claim Jesus does it in persona of a priest, others that Jesus does it Himself, as if he were still alive and well on planet Earth. So please , I do not believe any one is saying bypass Jesus. He is our one mediator,as you say. Does Jesus mediate less if I go to Him directly ? Did anyone go to Him indirectly in the bible ? Did not the apostles go out two by two , while Jesus was physically still with them ? Did they say to villagers , "I will forgive your sins , in the name of this Jesus “, or did they say, " In the name of Jesus, your sins can be forgiven” ? They are two totally different attitudes, commissions , authorities…Some believe Jesus is more mediator one on one, than thru another “persona”.I do not think that is unreasonable . I understand your belief that Christ setup a "persona ’ to go thru . Alas, we are right back to Garden of Eden ,and , "What hath God really said ? ".

First, and most important: Every word in the Catholic 73 book bible is God’s inspired truth. Every word remaining in the censored Catholic 66 book bible are God’s inspired truth. Pity those who, for reasons of human ego, are denied the complete written word of our Lord. I believe that they have been cheated and placed at eternal risk by the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura. Please understand that you have walked away from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for your own reasons. I pray for you, as you do not want to remain among those from John 6:66 who walked away from our Lord. Jesus did not call them back, but through His love, all Catholics call you to prayerfully reconsider your decision.

Next: as to going to Jesus for absolutely everything - Jesus gave the Apostles authority that was unprecedented in all of human history. They cast out demons in Jesus’ name and with His authority. They healed in Jesus’ name and with His authority. They forgave sin in Jesus name and with His authority. They raised the dead in Jesus’ name and with His authority. Remember also that healing is forgiveness of sin. Did those who were healed, exorcised or forgiven by the Apostles go directly to Jesus for any of this? Did the dead, or those who raised them go to Jesus? No. The authority which Jesus left to His Church was used for these miracles. And, neither should any Christian on earth go directly to Jesus for everything, since the authority He gave to His Church remains with His Church. To accept Jesus completely is to accept also the Church He founded for the salvation of all mankind.

Yes, I believe explicitly in each and every word in the bible, but Jesus left us no bible. Even better, He left us His Church, which then produced the bible by God’s inspiration. Do not be fooled into believing that the bible is complete - especially when it tells you in so many paces that much is missing (John 20:30, John 21:25, Luke 3:18, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34 etc… He left a Church, the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) as our best chance to be lead to the narrow gate. Jesus says that we will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit of 493 years of sola scriptura is division.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

 

[joandarc2008]

Thanks .I understand the differing of offices or giftings ,as in parts of the body.However , no where does it say you can not teach a little ,evangelize a little ,minister a little, prophesy a little , with the gifting ,the faith that you have .Othrwise one might be putting their light under a bushel. If you are greatly gifted in one or more of those areas , perhaps you might be made a deacon or teacher or bishop .In another sense all these things pertain to the great commission ,for which He uses His entire body. A disciple is disciple is a disiple . Do you stop at being confirmed ? Do you evangelize ? Do you leave the work up to a presbyter ? I thought a presbyter equips or watches over those that are “working in the fields”. I disagree that the commision is just for presbyters , bishops. We are all priests , with a presbyter over us and Christ as the head over all of us. This is agreed upon both by Catholics and Protetstants…
If lay people , Christ’s disciples, do not evangelize, then indeed you need priests to retain or forgive sins . But , if you evangelize , what is your message ? Do you talk of forgivenes of sins by the Blood , of judgement to come. You admit we agree that saying no to His forgiveness, is unforgiveable,and they are left in their sins. Is not that what retain means , their sins are “retained” ? Do we not agree on this ,and leave the issue of priests aside for a moment ?

The message is that Christ that died for our sins the same as yours - the mechanism of the forgiveness is different and very Biblically based. i.e. -Eucharist and Confession. neither of which can be done without a presbyter.

 

[david_ruiz]

The message is that Christ that died for our sins the same as yours - the mechanism of the forgiveness is different and very Biblically based. i.e. -Eucharist and Confession. neither of which can be done without a presbyter.

Thank-you for your short and honest answers.Yet on further thought, how do you tell unsaved people how to receive this gift of forgiveness of sins ? I believe you know what others say , but I am not quite sure what a Catholic would say. As far as already saved people , I hear you loud and clear ,you need a presbyter.Thank-you

 

[david_ruiz]

y

;7269216]
First, and most important: Every word in the Catholic 73 book bible is God’s inspired truth. Every word remaining in the censored Catholic 66 book bible are God’s inspired truth. Pity those who, for reasons of human ego, are denied the complete written word of our Lord. I believe that they have been cheated and placed at eternal risk by the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura. Please understand that you have walked away from the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for your own reasons. I pray for you, as you do not want to remain among those from John 6:66

who walked away from our Lord. Jesus did not call them back, but through His love, all Catholics call you to prayerfully reconsider your decision.

Next: as to going to Jesus for absolutely everything - Jesus gave the Apostles authority that was unprecedented in all of human history. They cast out demons in Jesus’ name and with His authority. They healed in Jesus’ name and with His authority. They forgave sin in Jesus name and with His authority. They raised the dead in Jesus’ name and with His authority. Remember also that healing is forgiveness of sin. Did those who were healed, exorcised or forgiven by the Apostles go directly to Jesus for any of this? Did the dead, or those who raised them go to Jesus? No. The authority which Jesus left to His Church was used for these miracles. And, neither should any Christian on earth go directly to Jesus for everything, since the authority He gave to His Church remains with His Church. To accept Jesus completely is to accept also the Church He founded for the salvation of all mankind.

Yes, I believe explicitly in each and every word in the bible, but Jesus left us no bible. Even better, He left us His Church, which then produced the bible by God’s inspiration. Do not be fooled into believing that the bible is complete - especially when it tells you in so many paces that much is missing (John 20:30, John 21:25, Luke 3:18, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34 etc… He left a Church, the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15) as our best chance to be lead to the narrow gate. Jesus says that we will know a tree by its fruit. The fruit of 493 years of sola scriptura is division.

The Holy Spirit unites.
The demon divides.

Howdy. As far as books ,Protestants did what Rome did ,and left out books they thought were not inspired.There could have been more than 73 , some of Septuagent (?) did not make cut in both camps… As far as John 6, what is more important, that one believe in transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation, or that one " believe thou (Jesus) art the Christ , the Son of the Living God" ? What is it that “some of you believed not " as said by Jesus ? To “eat” him ? Is it not much deeper, not to believe He is the Son of God ? Jesus knew from the beginning ( before He said anything of “eating” Him) who they were that believed not…” .That is why they left Jesus . The “eating Him was the flushing out of their true identity . Jesus even goes on to say ,“you would really be floored by Me telling you of my Ascension ,much less my death . Remember , they (even apostles) ,even Judas thought He was going to reign as King ,on the Davidic throne , immediately ,with no detour (crucifixion/ascension/ return). This goes much deeper than transubstantiation.On does not leave Jesus with consubstantiation. You know we are like Peter and are “sure” Jesus is the Son of God, our Messiah. Right ? Alleluia ! We are united in that.( and in His” remembrance”)…“Going to Jesus for absolutely everything” -who said that?.I have been very careful to be thankful for His Body ,the church , and said we need each other . I was talking about forgiveness of sins ,in particular ,where direct is best. I have been very clear that we are His finger here on Earth, with authority ,to retain and proclaim forgiveness of sin etc . My point has been that the authority is not just for the ordained .You know very well that miracles can occur irrespective of person. Anyways the question was how did Jesus forgive sins ? You are right ,the apostles did not go to Jesus (after Ascension) ,because He was still there with them , and as you say acted in his name .All things good are done in His name , whether you believe one must be ordained ,or not …Tell me , do really think God left out pertinent information from His Word (written) to us ? Did Jesus allow tradition to stand, right or wrong (remember all the division-Saducees /Pharisees), because not everything was given in the Old Testament-a foreshadow of the new testament ? So what people did after the apostles were gone has more weight than what they left behind in their God-breathed writings ? The inference from your scriptures is that the pertinent was written down ,the rest would be repetitious.This is simple scholarship ,doing things properly and in order ,for God is not the author of confusion. It is a poor and unbiblical argument that Holy Scripture is NOT able to make you perfect for every good work .The church is built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles .Scripture and the Holy Spirit give us,the Church, the guidelines how to build thereupon. Why do you think scripture sculptured our first creeds ? Why did much early fathers arguments against falsehood flooded with scripture ? Fact is we both believe in Holy Scripture ,the Body of Christ the church ,the working of the Holy Spirit etc. We are just a little divided how ,like the Sadducees and Pharisees. Nothing new under the sun. …As far as fruit ,I would not throw stones for it is not a pretty history (Roman Catholicism and Protestantism ) ,no matter who writes it. Yes, we have division ,but we had freedom of conscience from day one. Catholicism can not say it has for it’s two thousand years.Thankfully ,we will not go by such names in heaven .

 

[joandarc2008]

Thank-you for your short and honest answers.Yet on further thought, how do you tell unsaved people how to receive this gift of forgiveness of sins ? I believe you know what others say , but I am not quite sure what a Catholic would say. As far as already saved people , I hear you loud and clear ,you need a presbyter.Thank-you

There is no such thing as saved and unsaved. Salvation is a process. And yes it is in Scripture. And yes it even can continue after we die if we die in friendship with God but not in a perfect State of Grace - but that is a whole other thread. The truth is there are four last things: Judgement (instantly), Hell (instantly- if that is our judgement), Purgatory (instantly if that is our judgement), and Heaven (instantly or through Purgatory). Salvation is not a process.

If someone came to me and said they wanted to learn more I would tell them they could receive physical Grace everyday through the Sacraments. However, that being said, RCIA is a year long process (two years in some Parishes) because the Sacraments of Initiation leave an indellible mark. Catholicism is not a religion where you leave and go find another Church. When you take those Sacraments it is a solemn promise- and a lifelong one to God.

That is why those discerning this choice are given time and classes prior to and not just welcomed again, given Sacraments,and then taught what it is all about.

 

[po18guy]

with authority ,to retain and proclaim forgiveness of sin etc . My point has been that the authority is not just for the ordained.

Neither you nor I bind or loose anything in heaven! And, not even on earth. Can you forgive Osama bin Laden his sins on earth and in heaven? No.

You know very well that miracles can occur irrespective of person.

It’s just that they do not seem to happen outside of the Apostolic Churches.

Anyways the question was how did Jesus forgive sins ? You are right ,the apostles did not go to Jesus (after Ascension) ,because He was still there with them , and as you say acted in his name .All things good are done in His name , whether you believe one must be ordained ,or not …Tell me , do really think God left out pertinent information from His Word (written) to us ?

Yes, absolutely! The inspired writers tell us so! Saint Paul tells us so.

Did Jesus allow tradition to stand, right or wrong (remember all the division-Saducees /Pharisees), because not everything was given in the Old Testament-a foreshadow of the new testament ? So what people did after the apostles were gone has more weight than what they left behind in their God-breathed writings ?

When Jesus says “whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven”, I believe Him.

The inference from your scriptures is that the pertinent was written down ,the rest would be repetitious.This is simple scholarship ,doing things properly and in order ,for God is not the author of confusion.

You obviously have a problem with Jesus’ concept of the Apostles, Bishops and Presbyters. I do not. You dismiss the priesthood, but make yourself one! Jesus gave no such authority to the common believer. That only empowers the ego, which is the origin of man’s fall from grace.

 

[david_ruiz]

There is no such thing as saved and unsaved. Salvation is a process. And yes it is in Scripture. And yes it even can continue after we die if we die in friendship with God but not in a perfect State of Grace - but that is a whole other thread. The truth is there are four last things: Judgement (instantly), Hell (instantly- if that is our judgement), Purgatory (instantly if that is our judgement), and Heaven (instantly or through Purgatory). Salvation is not a process.

If someone came to me and said they wanted to learn more I would tell them they could receive physical Grace everyday through the Sacraments. However, that being said, RCIA is a year long process (two years in some Parishes) because the Sacraments of Initiation leave an indellible mark. Catholicism is not a religion where you leave and go find another Church. When you take those Sacraments it is a solemn promise- and a lifelong one to God.

That is why those discerning this choice are given time and classes prior to and not just welcomed again, given Sacraments,and then taught what it is all about.

Thank-you .I understand saved can be a process,but it can also be other things .There must be another term ,but i think you know what i mean ,that is in the bible also .There is regeneration ,which is an event , you are “born again”. Then you grow (process).There is justification,sanctification.There is “written in the book of life” or not .There is believer ,non-believer ,baptized ,unbaptized…We do agree for someone new to the faith ,their is instruction .I would say Protestantism does not walk away from Christianity ,that is Jesus ,when you go to one church or another .I would say commitment to Christ is foremost ,and then commitment to church falls in,even in Catholicism

 

[joandarc2008]

Thank-you .I understand saved can be a process,but it can also be other things .There must be another term ,but i think you know what i mean ,that is in the bible also .There is regeneration ,which is an event , you are “born again”. Then you grow (process).There is justification,sanctification.There is “written in the book of life” or not .There is believer ,non-believer ,baptized ,unbaptized…We do agree for someone new to the faith ,their is instruction .I would say Protestantism does not walk away from Christianity ,that is Jesus ,when you go to one church or another .I would say commitment to Christ is foremost ,and then commitment to church falls in,even in Catholicism

And just a continuation of the conversation not this same comment - but about those 12 - you need to understand what the 12 Apostles represented - they were the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel - it was the reason after the suicide of Judas Iscariot under the leadership of Peter that he was replaced to have the important number of 12 - and you will find through the book of Acts and the laying of hands that these 12 did have gifts that others did not. Go back and reread the area about the election of the 12th member.

 

[po18guy]

I would say commitment to Christ is foremost ,and then commitment to church falls in,even in Catholicism

We must not and indeed, cannot separate Christ’s Mystical Body, His Church, from Him. They are one in being and inseparable. Saint Paul says as much. Sadly, recent centuries have spawned a belief that we are no longer Church, but only individual believers. This shatters unity, which the call of the Holy Spirit to all Christians. Heaven weeps.

 

[Cat_Herder]

We must not and indeed, cannot separate Christ’s Mystical Body, His Church, from Him. They are one in being and inseparable. Saint Paul says as much. Sadly, recent centuries have spawned a belief that we are no longer Church, but only individual believers. This shatters unity, which the call of the Holy Spirit to all Christians. Heaven weeps.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:1-6[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus did not say “why are you persecuting My church” or “why are you persecuting My people” or “My disciples.” He said,“why are you persecuting ME.”

Thus, Paul learned that Christ has a real (not symbolic) Body on earth–His Church–and Paul’s epistles are packed with teaching on this.

 

[david_ruiz]

Neither you nor I bind or loose anything in heaven! And, not even on earth. Can you forgive Osama bin Laden his sins on earth and in heaven? No.

 

[david_ruiz]

And just a continuation of the conversation not this same comment - but about those 12 - you need to understand what the 12 Apostles represented - they were the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel - it was the reason after the suicide of Judas Iscariot under the leadership of Peter that he was replaced to have the important number of 12 - and you will find through the book of Acts and the laying of hands that these 12 did have gifts that others did not. Go back and reread the area about the election of the 12th member.

Thanks did read .i understand your position .The apostles did miracles The first non-apostle to do them is Stephen ,We do not know if it was before or after laying on of hands.He certainly left serving tables (he was laid hands on for that),or at least preached alot ,and got stoned for it…Who is the twelfth apostle in Revelations , our foundation ? Many believe it was Paul who replaced Judas ,and that he was taught by Christ for three years in the desert .Or was it the ones they drew lots for ? thanks

 

[david_ruiz]

We must not and indeed, cannot separate Christ’s Mystical Body, His Church, from Him. They are one in being and inseparable. Saint Paul says as much. Sadly, recent centuries have spawned a belief that we are no longer Church, but only individual believers. This shatters unity, which the call of the Holy Spirit to all Christians. Heaven weeps.

Oh Boy .Who says we are no longer the Church ,but individual believers ? Just as you say all those things are one , maybe your two things are one (the church and individual believers ). It is also sad when the church does not recognize individual conscience ,as Rome has insisted on declaring from time to time.I believe Jerome had teachings ,commentaries before the books of his latin bible. I believe he left it up to the individual reader , believer to decide for himself about those commentaries, just as Luther wrote in his bible commentaries. Perhaps it is your background that makes it difficult to see that the individual is "individual’ and at the same time part of the body ,the Church .I do believe the body is one , in many parts. In a family one can spend more time with the spouse than with the children , and at other times more time with the kids than with the spouse ,yet they are always a “family” unit. The fact is we have a relationship with Jesus and we have a relationship with fellow believers .The closer we get to Christ , the closer I get to fellow believers. One can certainly pursue each individually. I believe we both agree that time we spend with the Lord in prayer or reading His Word , helps us in dealing with fellow believers .This commitment to Christ impacts your effect on the Body ,his Church. that is all i was saying.

 

[joandarc2008]

Thanks did read .i understand your position .The apostles did miracles The first non-apostle to do them is Stephen ,We do not know if it was before or after laying on of hands.He certainly left serving tables (he was laid hands on for that),or at least preached alot ,and got stoned for it…Who is the twelfth apostle in Revelations , our foundation ? Many believe it was Paul who replaced Judas ,and that he was taught by Christ for three years in the desert .Or was it the ones they drew lots for ? thanks

The 12th Apostle? That would be Mathias - check out Acts 1:15-16,20-22. Stephen was one of the Seven deacons mentioned in the Book of Acts. (Acts 6:1-7) Paul while he did have a very inspired conversion was not an apostle but didd speak many times of being in communication with the Apostles - we know from History that it was mainly Luke.

 

[david_ruiz]

The 12th Apostle? That would be Mathias - check out Acts 1:15-16,20-22. Stephen was one of the Seven deacons mentioned in the Book of Acts. (Acts 6:1-7) Paul while he did have a very inspired conversion was not an apostle but didd speak many times of being in communication with the Apostles - we know from History that it was mainly Luke.

I believe Paul referred to himself as an apostle.I am not dogmatic about it though ,just interesting.

 

[joandarc2008]

I believe Paul referred to himself as an apostle.I am not dogmatic about it though ,just interesting.

We know that Paul was at the Council of Jerusalem and that Peter sided with Paul and that James the Just also sided with Peter. Without these two Christianity would never have been opened to the Gentiles without circumcision.

But I digress. After Pauls conversion from Saul he had a hard time having the Christians accept him due to his earlier persecution of them. In Acts 9:26-30 it states he moved among the Apostles freely speaking the name of the Lord but not the he became one of them.

After that he goes off to start his ministry among the Gentiles - that is where most of the controversy in his ministry is about dietary laws and circumcision.

 

[PRmerger]

In a family one can spend more time with the spouse than with the children , and at other times more time with the kids than with the spouse ,yet they are always a “family” unit.

Interesting that you bring family and spouse into this discussion, david…as it pertains to your comment below:

The fact is we have a relationship with Jesus and we have a relationship with fellow believers .The closer we get to Christ , the closer I get to fellow believers.

This is absolutely true. And only Christians who have the Eucharist can have the sublime and profound intimacy of the One Flesh Union.

Just as a husband and wife together, in their marital embrace, strengthen their relationship with their family.

But, alas, Christians who do not enjoy the Eucharist have no means of this intimacy.

They have “prayer or reading His Word”, which is fantastic.But conversation with your spouse and reading his/her love letters to you does not replace the intimacy of the One Flesh Union.

One can certainly pursue each individually. I believe we both agree that time we spend with the Lord in prayer or reading His Word , helps us in dealing with fellow believers .This commitment to Christ impacts your effect on the Body ,his Church. that is all i was saying.

 

[po18guy]

Oh Boy .Who says we are no longer the Church ,but individual believers…It is also sad when the church does not recognize individual conscience ,as Rome has insisted on declaring from time to time.I believe Jerome had teachings ,commentaries before the books of his latin bible. I believe he left it up to the individual reader , believer to decide for himself about those commentaries, just as Luther wrote in his bible commentaries. Perhaps it is your background that makes it difficult to see that the individual is "individual’ and at the same time part of the body ,the Church

To condense: The “bible alone” movement has shattered Christ’s Body into disagreeing factions. We are supposed to be one. Conscience? It must be well-formed, or it is not a conscience at all. Suppose you are a sociopath - how do you follow your conscience if you don’t have one? Jerome - had his own ideas, but he also had obedience. And that is why he is a Saint. Luther lacked obedience, and he is not a Saint. My background? Nope. It is the ego-driven bible alone groups that shatter Christ’s Body into thousands of disagreeing factions (denominations). What did Saint Paul have to say about factions?