Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[guanophore]

So, from the point of view of each respective church, in the world today, they too are right, in my opinion, which means no one is wrong,

Such a point of view is certainly very common in this age of moral relativism.

The problem here is that everyone cannot be right. Some of the doctrines espoused are diametrcally opposed to one another. Either God gave priests authority on earth to forgive sins, or He did not.

  and yet truth remains elusive regarding certain doctrinal beliefs, such as the sacrament of confession.

It only remains “elusive” for those who reject the Apostolic faith. Since this doctrine exists in all the communities founded by Apostles, and was lost from communities separated from the Apostolic faith during the Reformation, it seems pretty clear how the “elusiveness” came about. When one rejects Truth, one finds oneself in a no man’s land of moral relativism.

From that perspective, (the holy spirit guides each respective church) -

No, the HS does not “guide” people into disunity, but always into unity. If the HS is guiding then the persons following His lead will always move toward unity.

it does not sound like Jesus left the world with a universal way for all Christians,  regardless of denomination, to know the truth regarding certain teachings, such as confession or the Eucharist. Is that a believable assessment?

I am sure it is a believable assessment for you. Such a premise is certainly necessary in order to justify departure from The Way that He did leave. However, the Apostles taught that there is only One Faith, One Church, one Way, and that this Way was entrusted to them to carry to the whole world. They taught that He would not leave the Church orphaned, and that the HS would guide them into all Truth. So, for your premise to be correct, all these apostolic teachings and promises of Christ would have to be wrong.

Just quicky it’s late --you deserve better but A church can start out on fire and grow cold ,and many other scenarios .read the Letters to the seven churches in revelations.As you must know , this is not a problem to protestants. The church began well , kept some things well ,changed a few things , added a few things , with voices of reform at most every step .Reform is perfect example of Christ keeping his promise to be with us to the end. But the seven churches is a good start.

Yes, but reform does NOT include rejecting Apostolic Teaching, and creating new doctrines that are not found in the “once for all” Divine Deposit of faith.

 

[PRmerger]

Apparently you are not aware of your own Catechism.Not a figment,unless by a Catholic who posted it(Part about fulness)

Check each of my posts, david. I never said “fullness” is not part of Catholicism. In fact, I said that Catholicism preaches that it was the “fullness” of the faith.

I said “not equal in the fullness of His way.”

I don’t even know what “fullness of His way” is.

I don’t think you even know what it is. As I said, when I googled “fullness of His way” the only thing that came up was your phrase here on this thread and a Presbyterian church.

So please don’t misquote me or apply statements to me that I have not made. You will be reported for that.

 

[guanophore]

No. In spite of disunity truth can come forth.

Be very careful here, David. This is why we remain Catholic.

False

If you think this is false, then you have to rework your whole argument. You are the one who is forwarding the idea that God is speaking through disunity and disobedience, in spite of the fact that there have been some ungodly persons espousing the doctrines.
Here is your arguement"

Just because you see our disunity in disobedience does not relinquish your responsibility to ANY truth we may put forward , by God’s grace .After all ,did God not use the uncircumcised Philistines or Babylonians for the GOOD of Israel ?

So,which is it? Does God use the disobedient to achieve His purpose, or not?

Yes ,discern all things including diversity ,unity, but you can not use that to stop discerning every other big or little dogma that comes your way on IT"S OWN MERIT.

I agree, but the “merit” of a doctrine invented 1600 years after the Apostles starts out in the hole because it is not contained within the “once for all” deposit of faith.

I read somewhere that bishops /elders were not for interpreting scripture ,but to hold fast to what they were taught,at first directly from the apostles and then from their disciples etc.

Yes. They are the keepers of the Kerygma. They hold the aposotlic duty to teach the faithful to observe all that He has commanded (the great commission. It is their duty to teach the faithful to interpret the scriptures according to the One Faith that produced them.

So I am not sure the church is to interpret scripture per say. It can certainly teach , but scripture says every neighbor will teach his neighbor (we are all priests type of thing ,the Holy Spirit indwelling us, a new dispensation , inherent to the New Testament).

I agree with you about the new dispensation, the indwelling HS, and everyone teaching his neighbor. Where we seem to disagree is that I believe this teaching is consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught, and that our privilege does not extend to changing the One Faith that was handed down to us.

No one. God is His own interpreter, thru the Holy Spirit. He talks to us .Are we not spiritual beings ? Did He not walk and talk with Adam in the garden ? Did Adam need an interpreter ?

What you are saying is that Jesus’ commandment about taking disagreements “to the Church” is expired.

Yes, the HS talks to us, and yes, we are spiritual beings. But the HS does not lead individuals into disunity. When the HS is speaking to a person, they are always led toward the One Church, the One Faith.

Did He not walk and talk with Adam in the garden ? Did Adam need an interpreter ?

No, Adam needed no interpreter before the fall, since his mind and heart were not contaminated by sin. However, we struggle with the sin nature, and we fall to the temptation of the evil One, who wants to create disagreeement and disunity among us.

Do we not have the same because of the second Adam and Eve ,in Christ, the same privelege and phenomenem ? Of talking with Him ? Is not this in our tradition and bibles ?  Can you imagine , God speaks to you and you say , no, no don't speak to me but tell it to me thru Peter and or His successor. To make sure you are not off your rocker , The Holy Spirit will confirm with His written Word.

We have the privilege of being partakers of the divine nature, yes. But this does not make our sin nature disappear. As long as we are in this life, we are prone to move away from God.

You have set up a false dichotomy. We don’t say “no, don’t speak to me”, but we check ourselves when we think we are hearing God, to find out if what we are “hearing” is consistent with what God has already revealed. Yes, the HS will confirm it with his written word, and also the Sacred Tradtiion, which is the kerygma. There are no divisions in the revelation of God. If an individual receives something from the HS, it will never contradict what the HS has already revealed through the Church.

To make sure you are not off your rocker , The Holy Spirit will confirm with His written Word.

This is also why Jesus established an authoritative Body on earth. To keep people on their rockers.

 

[david_ruiz]

Your church is not the one Jesus Christ founded

 

[david_ruiz]

Check each of my posts, david. I never said “fullness” is not part of Catholicism. In fact, I said that Catholicism preaches that it was the “fullness” of the faith.

I said “not equal in the fullness of His way.”

I don’t even know what “fullness of His way” is.

I don’t think you even know what it is. As I said, when I googled “fullness of His way” the only thing that came up was your phrase here on this thread and a Presbyterian church.

So please don’t misquote me or apply statements to me that I have not made. You will be reported for that.

Don’t misunderstand me ,all i am saying is that in relation to Catholic and "other elemnts ,the word "fullness comes to play relative two both "churches ,as in one being ,having fullness ,the other not ,NEVER siad you did not have it .It is somewhere in your catechism ,i believe

 

[placido]

ASSUMPTIONS GALORE:THAT YOURS IS THE ONLY ONE

No, that is not “assumptions” but a historical fact. Jesus founded ONE Church and that is the catholic Church.

,THAT HE DID NOT ESTABLISH MORE.TO THIS DAY .

Hmmm … here is someone who believes, without any evidence, that Jesus founded more than one church. But when did Jesus found “MORE” churches and where is that important fact recorded?

placido

 

[guanophore]

ASSUMPTIONS GALORE:THAT YOURS IS THE ONLY ONE ,THAT HE DID NOT ESTABLISH MORE.TO THIS DAY .

I think we both accept Scritpure as authoritative Truth, do we not? When it states there is only ONE CHURCH, would you not accept this as a fundamental fact?

He always spoke of His Church in the singular. On what grounds do you believe he established more than one?

This could very well be true.

I think history will demonstrate that all other ecclsial communites were founded by men. Certainly all the Reformers were baptized Catholic.

 

[jlhargus]

Cat Herder: Your church is not the one Jesus Christ founded

ASSUMPTIONS GALORE:THAT YOURS IS THE ONLY ONE ,THAT HE DID NOT ESTABLISH MORE.TO THIS DAY . This could very well be true. .

JL: This is my Scriptural reasons and understanding for ONE** VISIBLE **HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. The Church Christ is building from living stones with Peter as the VISIBLE ROCK of faith unity. Show me your scripture, for YOUR tradition of men INVISIBLE CHRUCH?

Mt16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

What the group gathered and SENT by Christ was called at any given time or place does not matter in the lest. What matters is continuity with that One SENT Fellowship. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT?

[Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, **he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES;]

JN 17:18 As thou hast SENT ME into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM into the world. 19 And for their sakes I SANCTIFY MYSELF, THAT THEY ALSO MIGHT BE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE TRUTH. 20 NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, but FOR THEM ALSO WHICH shall BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 THAT THEY all may BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that THOU hast SENT ME.

Christ chose, prayed for and SENT one specific VISIBLE group, the Apostles Fellowship, whom he sanctified through the truth. Hearing their word and being ONE in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world.

Mt28:16 Then THE ELEVEN disciples WENT away into Galilee, INTO A MOUNTAIN where JESUS had APPOINTED them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And JESUS came and SPAKE UNTO THEM, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. 19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, ** I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. Amen.

The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given sent, with his authority, the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe ALL he taught. They were to go to ALL nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them TILL THE END of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end and Christ knew that. But their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule, by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop, in an unbroken line, till the end.

DN 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGODM which shall never be destroyed and THE KINGDOM shall not be left to other people but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER,

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be CALLED THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord GOD SHALL GIVE unto HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER and OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END.

[Lk22:29 And I APPOINT unto YOU A KINGDOM, AS MY FATHER hath APPOINTED unto ME; 30 THAT YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. 31 And THE LORD SAID, Simon, SIMON, behold, SATAN HATH DESIRED TO HAVE YOU, THAT HE MAY SIFT YOU AS WHEAT: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR **THEE, that THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and WHEN thou art CONVERTED, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.

The apostles sit on thrones judging, they also eat and drink at Christ’s table in his kingdom. Catholics are gathered in union with our bishops around the table of the Lord where we eat and drink, Christ’s body and blood, at every mass.

When Peter is converted HIS FAITH WILL NEVER FAIL, he is to STRENGTHEN ALL THE BRETHREN as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular in the Greek) Peter’s faith fail not. This was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” [THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood, the lambs and the sheep, the young and the old, the little ones and the great.

[Acts2:41 Then **THEY THAT gladly **RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED: AND **the same day there were **ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And **THEY CONTINUED **stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREADKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS.] What were they added to? ONE VISABLE APOSTLIC FELLOWSHIP, ONE DOCTRINE, Breaking of Bread is another term for mass, and in prayers (liturgy).

[1Cor1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD. 10 Now I BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY the name of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, that ye all SPEAK THE SAME THING, AND that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU; but that ye BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER in the SAME MIND and IN THE SAME JUDGMENT.] One fellowship, one faith, one baptism, one Lord and God of all no matter where it is located in the world. Lk24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER: but TARRY ye IN the city of JERUSALEM, UNTIL YE BE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn14:26 But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, WHATSOEVER I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU. Jn16:13 Howbeit when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, IS COME, he WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, an unbroken line of successors, by laying on of hands, till the end of the world.

Apostolic succession thru the sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, by laying of hands, from the apostles to the bishops to bishops in an unbroken line till the END. [Hb13:7 **Remember them which HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU , who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Hb13:17 OBEY THEM THAT HAVE THE RULE OVER YOU, and SUBMIT yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.]

Ordination gives the GIFT of the Holy Spirit to enable ordained to fulfill his mission. [2Tim1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou STIR UP THE GIFT OF GOD, which is IN THEE BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS. 7 For GOD HATH NOT GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; **BUT OF POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.] [Tm4:2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all long suffering and doctrine.]

Titus1:7 For A BISHOP must be blameless, as THE STEWARD OF GOD; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS HE HATH BEEN TAUGHT, THAT he may be able BY SOUND DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and TO CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Titus1:5 FOR THIS CAUSE LEFT I THEE IN CRETE, that THOU SHOULDEST SET IN ORDER the THINGS that are WANTING, AND ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY, AS I had APOINTED THEE.

Acts14:23 And WHEN THEY HAD ORDAINED them ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Titus1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH;

Titus2:1 But SPEAK thou the THINGS WHICH BECOME SOUND DOCTRINE: 2 THAT the aged MEN BE sober, grave, temperate, SOUND IN FAITH, in charity, in patience.

Titus2:15 THESE things SPEAK, and EXHORT, and REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY. Let no man despise thee.

Acts20:28 TAKE HEED therefore unto yourselves, and TO ALL THE FLOCK, over the WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, which he hath PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE.

[1Tim4:13 Till I come, GIVE ATTENDANCE TO READING, to EXHORTATION, **TO DOCTRINE. 14 NEGLECT NOT THE GIFT that is IN THEE, which was GIVEN thee by prophecy, WITH THE LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 TAKE HEED UNTO THYSELF, and UNTO THE DOCTRINE; CONTINUE IN THEM: for in DOING THIS thou SHALT both SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM THAT HEAR THEE.] ONE Correct DOCTRINE is of utmost importance to that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP, thru correct DOCTRINE people are saved.

I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the unbroken apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They GO OUT on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology.

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:
[Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT] Jer23:21 I HAVE NOT SENT THESE PROPHETS, yet they ran: I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO THEM, yet they prophesied.] Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARTH US; he that is not of God heareth not US. HEREBY KNOW WE the spirit of TRUTH, AND the spirit of ERROR.]

US would be the Church. The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority SENT by ChrisT. Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. TEACH the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. SANCTIFY by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, GOVERN the Church for good order,

[Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE **ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.]

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one fellowship Christ sent to teach all nations, all he commanded, Mt 28:20. He promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16, to those whom Christ send we must listen. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17.

I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead us in all truth, not hit and miss truth. To follow those, Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught. The Church to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 TM 3:14.

[Eph3:7 Whereof I WAS MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace OF GOD given unto me BY the effectual WORKING OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And **TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is THE FELLOWSHIP of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] [2Cor5:20 Now then **we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD did BESEECH YOU BY US: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.]

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna.

So in the regenerated spiritual Kingdom of David, of which Christ is now king, Peter is appointed First Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. CONTINUED:

4

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:
Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the regenerated spiritual Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones. [Eph3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 **Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, world without end. Amen.]

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it’s decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 For **it seemed good to the HOLY GHOST, and to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority, SENT by Christ, speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christians knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY and without dispute in Antioch, Acts15.

Paul even checked his teaching with that one fellowship. [Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.] Even though sent by Christ, Paul went by revealation to verify his teachings with the ONE Fellowship, to be sure he was not running in vain. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS, ALL Christ commanded, till the END of the age, Mt28:16-20. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL TRUTH, Jn16:13. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (mass), and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were ADDED to the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE, that they may ALL be One VISIBLE Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship, as Christ prayed in the garden. [Jn17:21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.] ]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR [Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, that tradition of men made a doctrine of God.]

Jn17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me THROUGH THEIR WORD; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

He is praying for the apostles and ALL who will believe in HIM thru their word throughout history. That they ALL be ONE indivisible BODY. Just as the TRINITY is one indivisible BEING, God. We in them, they in us thru the Holy Spirit. He is praying not only for spiritual UNITY and oneness, but also VISIBLE ONENESS so the world may SEE and BELIEVE the Father sent Him. Jesus shares his glory in giving his authority and gifts to the Church.

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT **US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] Christ established, and SENT one fellowship to TEACH the whole world till the end, promising to be WITH THEM ALWAYS. The Holy Spirit works thru those separated denominations not in visible union with the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. All Christ’s children are spiritually, although not visibly nor holding the apostles doctrine fully, united to the Church or body of Christ. [1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH.] There can’t be thousands of households of God teaching contradicting doctrine. There is only ONE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, that is the pillar and ground of truth. that SENT by Christ the apostles fellowship and their successors.

 

[KathleenGee]

JLHargus,

Hope all your work goes some where…to bear good fruit of Jesus Christ…

 

[PRmerger]

Don’t misunderstand me ,all i am saying is that in relation to Catholic and "other elemnts ,the word "fullness comes to play relative two both "churches ,as in one being ,having fullness ,the other not ,NEVER siad you did not have it .It is somewhere in your catechism ,i believe

Yes, Catholicism has the FULLNESS of Truth. And we preach that loudly and clearly.

That, however, is quite different from what you’re professing we believe:

Originally posted by david: My key term is equal, for you know I being a fallen Catholic ,and others outside Catholicism ,are NOT equal in the fullness of His way according to Catholic teaching

We do not state that you are unequal, or not saved, or condemned to hell, or anything of that sort. You simply don’t have the fullness of Truth. :sad_yes:

 

[david_ruiz]

No, that is not “assumptions” but a historical fact. Jesus founded ONE Church and that is the catholic Church.

 

[david_ruiz]

We do not state that you are unequal, or not saved, or condemned to hell, or anything of that sort. You simply don’t have the fullness of Truth. :sad_yes:

Thank-you

 

[rinnie]

placido;7447489:

True if you mean small “c” as catholic /universal ,Untrue if you mean capital C as in Catholic ,commonly referred as Roman Catholicplacido/QUOTE]Let’s see, the church at Antioch ,Ephusus Smyrna,Phillipi etc

David how can you agree that there is ONE CC and then turn around and say small c and Capital C.

I wish you would take time to really read what you have written in the last 5 months and I believe that you will see that you actually argue with yourself alot.

I can see that if the RCC cannot teach you and you seem to have authority over it, I am sure you feel you have it over us.

It would be a waste of time for me at this stage to try to show you what the Church teaches. Simply because many have and it means nothing to you. That is obvious.

I applaud all who have taken time to continue to correct you when it comes to the teaching of the Apostles. And I feel at this time it is better to continue to pray that your ears and eyes could somehow become open to the truth. For now I will go and do just that. Pray.

 

[david_ruiz]

That is either a deliberate diversion from your side, or a question of not knowing the difference between practice and doctrine … we are talking about doctrine not practices.

No qualms, as long as a Trinitarian formula was used.

Yes, but we not talking about your denomination … we are talking about your allegation that all the disagreeing and quarreling denominations are ONE universal church.

Yes, they do bicker on doctrine and can, therefore, not be ONE church.

Therefore, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox and the Protestants ARE NOT ONE church as you allege.

That is the truth, uncomfortable as it may be.

That is easy to say, but impossible to demonstrate.

No, please don’t talk about doctrinal unity in Protestantism … it simply does not exist.

Not on doctrine.

placido

I stated that the Church by definition has nothing to do with names of specific churches ,nor directly related to their doctrines .It is a gathering of regenerated souls ,The only time i mention names (denominational ) is to infer these souls can be found in all of them (Not every Catholic or baptist is regenerated.,hence i said "can " be found as in some)CHURCH IS IRESPECTIVE OF DENOMINATION ,INCLUDING CATHOLICISM .PER MY HUMBLE OPINION THANK-YOU.

 

[david_ruiz]

This is an important distinction, for sure. Since humans interpret everything that comes through the senses (including all that we read), what occurs in SS is that the person reading it becomes his own authority. Most SS are influenced by human traditions (SS being one) and don’t know it. Pretty much all of them earnestly believe and trust that their understanding of Scripture comes from the HS who bears witness to them in their hearts.
In the end, Scripture is not “alone”, and full reliance is not upon the Word, but one’s perception of the Word.
With you, I also reject the Deist perspective about the wound up clock approach. I also agree that He is with His Church until the end of the age. However, the Apostles taught that the fullness of the Father’s revelation of HImself came through Jesus, and the Church has always held that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. This is how we understand the Deposit of Faith - that was “once for all” committed to the Church. This is why we cannot accept the innovative doctrines of the Reformation, like SS, since such acceptance would require that we abandon the Apostolic teaching that public revelation is closed.

What remains is how we are to apply the “once for all” deposit of faith to the modern age, a task that Jesus entrusted to the Magesterium (teaching authority) of the Church. These are the successors of the Apostles in communion with the Successor of Peter, to whom responsibility was given to feed and and care for the flock.

It is difficult to say when Luther fell away from Catholic faith. Clearly it was before the Theses were posted.

By what authority to you deem them to be “minor” disagreements?

What does it mean to “feel” Catholic? Are those majority of American Catholics decorating the pews (however occasionally) who “feel” Catholic but reject the teachings of the Church Catholic because of their feelings?

If I pray the sinners prayer, and I “feel” that I have given my heart to Jesus am I therefore am saved forever?

I am having problems following your thought here. It seems that you are saying that Luther could not find some of the Church teachings in His bible, so he therefore decided they were not from God.

Most people do this, including many baptized Catholics. Sincer evangelicals believe they are following scripture, though they are really following their understanding of scripture, which is why there are so many divisions.

Those that are found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are the Word of God, and comprise the “once for all” deposit of faith. They are from God, and therefore, cannot be changed. Disciplines can change.

No, God has always said there is One Truth (His) and that weeds dwell among the wheat, and wolves among the flock. It is not a choice between a truth or another truth, but truth and error.

Have not been avoiding your stuff just very busy with the rest and we’ve run out of time -couldn’t catch up.Sorry Till the next time, take care.-same to the rest of you fellow “debaters”

 

[david_ruiz]

Such a point of view is certainly very common in this age of moral relativism.

 

[Dokimas]

I am sure the HS is present in the lives of Christians in every church regardless of denomination, but I was talking about the HS as an ever present guiding force in the church, regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth. Clearly the HS does not guide each church to truth, doctrinally speaking. Either the HS continues to guide the CC to truth or the HS does not. Yes, no, maybe?

I don’t think it’s a question of 100% or 0%. I’ve made it clear I don’t think any church has it correct 100% of the time. I have no clue which % the CC falls into or my church either.

I’m sure you and I have very important common beliefs and we share them with all other Christians. That’s what’s important. I understand we too often like to major on our differences and that’s what ‘debate’ is all about.