Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[guanophore]

Howdy.You are the first to mention my self depiction problem.You are right for clarity a comma would help .Otherwise some might think “Catholic” is the noun, and “protestant” an adjective, and “raised” adverb to catholic .Did you try clicking on my name and look at profile ? may have helped a little. Anyways, I was raised Catholic and became protestant at age 21…Sure James 5:14 goes great with 15-20 .I have no problem with “elders”(or bishops,teachers prophets)-just “pope” and “priest”. There is a reason why God used the Greek word for “elder” and not for “priest”.They are not the same.

Do you not believe in a NT priesthood?
Did you know that the modern English word “priest” is a Latin derivative of a contraction from the Gk. “presbyter”?

The role of the presbyter in the NT is identical to the role of the priest in the church today.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, great scriptures for works ,for religion as Jesus called it .However, we were talking about perfection, which is related , but also different.

It sounds like you don’t make any distinction between works of the flesh, and ergos hagios (holy works).

The works that Jesus predestined for us to do can only be done from a state of perfection (grace) in which God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. This is why James says that our works “complete” or “perfect” our faith. Saving faith always produces the works that befit repentance.That is also why we don’t say “faith alone”. Saving faith is always accompanied by love and hope. It is never “alone”.

 

[guanophore]

He is not free to express wrong beliefs about Catholicism, esp when he has been shown that what he is professing is NOT Catholic teaching.

I have told him that Catholics do not believe that the sacraments are magic.

Indeed. And demonstrating this contempt for Catholicism is not permissible on the CAFs.

Welcome back, BTW, dear friend guanophore, to the fun. You were missed!

A beloved mentor of mine, Morton Kelsey, once took a NT, and with an exacto knife, sliced out every verse that contained anything supernatural. I have never seen such a holey bible! There are many “Christians” who don’t believe that God acts supernaturally, through water, fire, oil, mud, or any other substance. They deny the whole incarnational principle. For such persons, the idea that God would heal a persons’ sight by putting mud on their eyes seems like “magic”.

 

[Cat_Herder]

A beloved mentor of mine, Morton Kelsey, once took a NT, and with an exacto knife, sliced out every verse that contained anything supernatural. I have never seen such a holey bible! There are many “Christians” who don’t believe that God acts supernaturally, through water, fire, oil, mud, or any other substance. They deny the whole incarnational principle. For such persons, the idea that God would heal a persons’ sight by putting mud on their eyes seems like “magic”.

The way to deal with those folks is to start talking to them about marriage. Are the marriage vows and ceremony only symbolic and thus do not effect any real change in the relationship between the spouses and God? If the Fundamentalist answers yes, they will then tell you that sexual activity is what constitutes marriage.

Then, ask them why premarital sexual acts are sinful; if sexual acts are what causes marriage, then how can premarital sexual acts be sinful, since they cannot be premarital?

This will force them to admit the sacramental nature of marriage (and then it becomes much simpler to walk them through the remaining six sacraments)—or else they will show their true colors.

P.S. Merry Christmas! :christmastree1:

 

[jlhargus]

Yes. But our answers are slightly different ,for I do not view the Eucharistic thrust ,of us offering something up to God, as scriptural.The Eucharist is THANKSGIVING-to give thanks and commemorate His sacrifice for us -He gave to us ,we do not give to Him except thanks

JL: We not only give thanks alone with the ministerial priest but as a priestly people we offer our joys, works, prayers and sufferings in union with Christ’s once done, MADE present, at mass sacrifice.

[1Jn 2:1 My little children these thing write I to you that you sin not. And **if any man sin WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous 2 And HE is THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS and not for our’s only but also for the sins of the whole world.] Christ is our propitiation who’s blood washes away our sins at baptism, and sins committed and confessed after baptism in the sacrament of reconciliation.

Christ is not just sitting on a throne in heaven and watching events, He is our High Priest who has entered the Holy of Holies with his propitiating, atoning blood. He ever lives to MEDIATE, propitiate and intercede for us. He does this by making present and showing forth, to the Father, his once for all sacrifice on the cross. The sacrifice of the mass is a propitiation, it is the same once for all sacrifice of the cross MADE PRESENT to us. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same, once done, made present to us a memorial sacrifice, a living memorial to God our Father and also to us, [Ex 25:30 …you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always] In the old Temple Holy of Holies the bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God, so God can see it always. The Temple bread of the Presence is an example and shadow of Christ and his real Presence in the bread of life, who will stand in the midst of the throne of God our Father as a Lamb slain, showing forth the propitiatory sacrifice of the cross, before the Father always. [Rv 5:6 And I beheld… lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb as it had been slain …]

This is how Christ is our ONE UNIQUE MEDIATOR, we can all pray for others, as a mediator, through intercessory prayer and make sacrifices, but we cannot make atonement as a propitiation and take away sins for others. Only the blood of Christ our one mediator of the New Covenant can take away sins.

Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb with his propitiatory, atoning, blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father. The man Jesus Christ is our MEDIATOR, our High Priest in the order of Melchisedec, mediating ever showing forth and making present his once for all memorial sacrifice to the Father and us at mass, where we receive and eat the passover lamb, sacrificed for us. Just as Israel ate their passover lamb.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

[Malachi 1:11 For from the rising to going down of the sun my name shall be great among the Gentiles, in everyplace **incense shall be offered …AND a pure offering will be made, Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne …stood a Lamb as it had been slain …Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. … Hb 7:24 … this man … continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. …Hb 8:1…We have such an high priest…set on the right hand of Majesty… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore it is OF NECESSITY that this man have somewhat also TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 …serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things … … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry … MEDIATOR OF a better COVENANT.]

1Jn 2:2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE ]

[Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER **SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:]

BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered. This IS my body, this IS my blood, with these words the living memorial sacrifice is accomplished by the sacaramental separation of body and blood showing forth Christ’s death till he comes again. That same body and shed blood present on the altar.

The scriptures tell us we have access to ALL those in heaven, [Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and TO an innumerable company of ANGELS, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD the Judge of all, and TO the **SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, and TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.]

As Catholics we come TO Heavenly Jerusalem, TO angels, TO God, TO spirits of just men, TO Jesus TO the blood. Through the one mediatorship of Jesus, we COME united in worship or thru individual prayer. The veil of the temple has been removed we have access to the Holy of Holies and ALL who are there.

 

[david_ruiz]

JL: In the old temple there was a Jewish court and a Gentile court separating the two. In the New Temple, which Christ is building, the Church those walls have been taken away.

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 **That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens FROM the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope

, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For HE IS OUR PEACE, WHO HATH MADE BOTH ONE, and hath BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for TO MAKE IN HIMSELF of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; 16 And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the saints, and OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom ALL THE BUILDING fitly framed together GROWETH UNTO AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD: 22 In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for AN HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.]

[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES , whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one BODY, the Church.

Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and heirs according to the promise.

Merry Christmas .I love you for bringing up scripture, for it is good for teaching and correcting and doctrine. It seems you limit my perception of walls tumbling down because of Christ’s blood.Yes, your scriptures deal at least with the Gentiles and Jews and those tumbling walls .Yes, there was a literal wall at the temple between Gentiles and Jews but also between Jews and the Holiest, and one for women also -lots of walls and separation. But may I tell you this -ALL the walls have come tumbling down .Even the final wall , the most sacred wall of all ,the veil wall where only the high priest could go in , was torn at His death, “And behold , the veil of the temple was rent in two , from the top to the bottom, and there was a great earthquake” - Matt 27:51. And so now ,we are the temple of God ,The Holy Spirit. We are priests to the world and to God .The temple typology is now us , with all walls down. Why do you put Christ back in behind the veil , bringing Him out only by a priest, just like in the old days (though slightly better, for the priest offers Jesus to us) ? Again, this separation did not take place in the earliest church.Hopefully you see that in scripture, that we are His temple .Yes, things must be done in order , as with any church gathering and function .There is a difference between a “president”-one presiding over a "service or “mass” and one “effectuating”, or the “go between” Christ and fellow believers. We are a kingdom of priests.

 

[david_ruiz]

These are very good points, and demonstrate perfectly why it is that Jesus did not leave us to determine the Truth individually. He founded the Church so that His revelation to us could surrmount all these human deficiencies. He did not want us to be kept in the dark

 

[guanophore]

But may I tell you this -ALL the walls have come tumbling down .Even the final wall , the most sacred wall of all ,the veil wall where only the high priest could go in , was torn at His death, “And behold , the veil of the temple was rent in two , from the top to the bottom, and there was a great earthquake” - Matt 27:51. And so now ,we are the temple of God ,The Holy Spirit. We are priests to the world and to God .The temple typology is now us , with all walls down.

For some reason you seem to think this is not Catholic, but it is. Whatever you have been given to understand about Catholicism is erroneous. That is obvious when you give us Catholic ideas and purport that they are not Catholic.

To the extent that your faith tradition has retained the Apostolic Teachings, there are Catholic ideas embedded. The priesthood of all believers is one of those Catholic doctrines that has not been abandoned by whatever group you are a part of now.

Why do you put Christ back in behind the veil , bringing Him out only by a priest,  just like in the old days  (though slightly better, for the priest offers Jesus to us) ?

There are several errors in this statement. First, Christ is not behind any veil. Second, the idea that he is “only brought out by a priest” is a fabrication. You yourself have just reiterated the Catholic teaching that we are all here to minister Christ to the world. Third, the ministerial priesthood is here to minister to the saints, so they can do the work of the ministry. They are responsible to equip the saints, so that they can fuflill their role as the priesthood of Christ to the world.

Again, this separation did not take place in the earliest church.

“Separation” exists only in your mind, and the errant attitudes of those who have been teaching you. The fact that different members of the Body have different roles and ministries does not “separate” them from one another.

Hopefully you see that in scripture, that we are His temple.

Do you think that those who are responsible for the maintenance of the temple are somehow “separated” from it?

Yes, things must be done in order , as with any church gathering and function .There is a difference between a “president”-one presiding over a "service or “mass” and one “effectuating”, or the “go between” Christ and fellow believers. We are a kingdom of priests.

Apparently you do not see the role of the ministers in the NT? For some reason it is important for you to deny these passages, maybe so that you can cling to your beliefs.

 

[david_ruiz]

I agree. What happened during the Reformation is that people decided that it was a good thing to interpret apart from what God had already revealed to His Church. That is why there is so much fragmentation. Jesus promised to lead the Church into all Truth, and individuals can only benefit from this if they remain in unity with her.

This is what was told to Luther and others , like he was reinventing a new wheel (hence my wheel is only 500 years old and yours 2000,etc. etc). The 500 year old rebuttal was Rome strayed from original interpretation and practice ,causing fragmentation. .He was only going back to the beginning , not inventing anything that was not there originally.I think nowhere, nowhere will you find Luther saying he believed differently than Peter did… Also , we must not confuse the vast accrual of church revelation with God having to individually make us see it also. That is the whole point of bringing up Peter’s confession -He interpreted apart from his “church” teaching and caused much fragmentation in Judaism-yet he was right, wasn’t he .Peter really did not invent anything new, though his detractors said he did. Peter was in harmony with Judaism ,as I believe luther was in harmony with the Way ,with Christians of earlier days.

 

[david_ruiz]

Do you not believe in a NT priesthood?

 

[david_ruiz]

It sounds like you don’t make any distinction between works of the flesh, and ergos hagios (holy works).

 

[david_ruiz]

A beloved mentor of mine, Morton Kelsey, once took a NT, and with an exacto knife, sliced out every verse that contained anything supernatural. I have never seen such a holey bible! There are many “Christians” who don’t believe that God acts supernaturally, through water, fire, oil, mud, or any other substance. They deny the whole incarnational principle. For such persons, the idea that God would heal a persons’ sight by putting mud on their eyes seems like “magic”.

The exacto knife is in many hands and many churches ,including Catholicism. I would say it is best to have the onholiest bible as possible.Good word picture .Thanks

 

[guanophore]

Merry Christmas.Yes, welcome back .You brought me here then vanished .You can see we carried on busily

Sorry about that. The end of the semester really kicked my butt!

…I was honest enough to admit a weakness and you took the opportunity to suggest a way out , as in the Church.

It is not just yours, but is the nature of humanity. This is WHY we need the gift of infallibility.

May I suggest I am in good company, for one of our founders in the faith said we see "thru a glass darkly"-1stCor 13:12. Will you not see better and know more on that glorious day , at least relative to what you know today ?

Yes, we will all then see as we are seen, but we need to see some things now, in order to make it there. It is these fundamental truths that Jesus deposited with HIs Church, and promised to preserve by His Spirit.

Furthermore , did not the Church act out of darkness towards the Jews or reformers in the past ?

There have always been wolves among the sheep, false teachers, and persons in positions of authority that sin and are corrupt. It is not right to lay the sins of such persons at the feet of Jesus.

Did not The Church take 1900 years to reach full light on the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumptiom - many dying in “darkness” of them beforehand ?

This is an interesting question. When I read about the history, it seems to me that the light has been present from the beginning. However, due to the fact that some are in darkness, it became necessary to formally proclaim it.

Do you imagine that, because it takes time for people to figure things out, the truth has not been there from the beginning?

Lastly, is it not possible that my or your lack of any knowledge on something may not be because of a deficiency in our churches but in ourselves ?

Absolutly. I learn something new on here every day!

Are not all believers at differing stages of developement ,maturity and giftings ? No, seeing thru a glass darkly is universal ,as is that we are still the light of the world.

And the reason why the gift of infallibility is so essential for the preservation of the Church.

Jesus is our lamp unto our feet .He is also sight giver , that is He illumines our path but also gives us eyes to spiritually see in the first place.

So how do you account that some of these “illuminations” are a departure from what He revealed previously?

Oh boy ,whole other topic.Yes we are baptized into Christ , but is this water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism ? Remember ,some were born again and speaking in tongues etc BEFORE any water baptism.

The Apostles never separated the Spirit from the Water from the time Christ entered the water and joined the two. The reason that water baptism was administered immediately to those who had received the Spirit is BECAUSE they understood the two were to go together. That is why God chose this method to convince them about the Gentiles.

Besides, God is not bound by the Sacrament. He can cause anyone to prophesy, both those inside, and those outside the camp.

 

[david_ruiz]

Are the marriage vows and ceremony only symbolic and thus do not effect any real change in the relationship between the spouses and God? If the Fundamentalist answers yes, they will then tell you that sexual activity is what constitutes marriage.

Interesting .making me think I am not sure a vow is the same as a sacrament.I guess you have the ceremony ,vows and consummation ,before God and indeed he honors the "ceremony’ ,the intent of the hearts.It is a declaration before man and God, as is baptism. I believe the consumation is both symbolic and literal of “oneness”.

Then, ask them why premarital sexual acts are sinful; if sexual acts are what causes marriage, then how can premarital sexual acts be sinful, since they cannot be premarital?

I am not sure anyone says sex causes marriage .I think it may cause oneness ,at least temporarily ,and out of context ,not in faith ,which is all sinful.Marriage is a vow forever .Sex without it is sin .

 

[guanophore]

This is what was told to Luther and others , like he was reinventing a new wheel (hence my wheel is only 500 years old and yours 2000,etc. etc). The 500 year old rebuttal was Rome strayed from original interpretation and practice ,causing fragmentation.

I think you are confusing the Teaching of the Church (what you refer to as “Rome”?) with the behavior of greedy persons who had departed from it.

He was only going back to the beginning , not inventing anything that was not there originally.I think nowhere, nowhere will you find Luther saying he believed differently than Peter did…

I am sure he believed that he had not departed from the faith of Peter, but he did.

Also , we must not confuse the vast accrual of church revelation with God having to individually make us see it also.

If I understand you correctly, you might be getting a glimpse that the Church is something larger than the sum of her members here on earth.

That is the whole point of bringing up Peter’s confession -He interpreted apart from his “church” teaching and caused much fragmentation in Judaism-yet he was right, wasn’t he .Peter really did not invent anything new, though his detractors said he did. Peter was in harmony with Judaism ,as I believe luther was in harmony with the Way ,with Christians of earlier days.

He realized before he died what aggregious errors he had spawned, and regretted his actions.

 

[david_ruiz]

Through the one mediatorship of Jesus, we COME united in worship or thru individual prayer. The veil of the temple has been removed we have access to the Holy of Holies and ALL who are there.

You gave a lot .May I focus momentarily on the best -which is above.This is how it should be .I just feel in practice you also have too much separation between priests and laity etc. Why do you put Christ in a monstrance or behind the veil up there on the altar , for only the priest to fetch , bring out, or ,transubstantiate ? Don’t get it, when we are to be the monstrance ,his Temple. You should be able to go up to that altar, and reach for the Lord, thru that veil, and “bring Him out” for He is within you.

 

[guanophore]

Which priesthood ?

There is only one priesthood in the NT.

But you answered this in a post above. It appears that you just deny the authority that Jesus gave to His Apostles, and they to their successors, the Bishops.

The new testament was careful in it’s wording for a reason.

I am sure the writers never dreamed that people would come along 2000 years after the fact, and try to create a faith practice out of the book, separated from the faith that produced it.

Priest is only mentioned when talking of Jesus or us, lay people. The Catholic church acknowledges we are a kingdom of priests… I do not believe presbyter is the same as priest in the Greek .

No, I said that the ROLE of the priest is identical to the ROLE of the presbyter in the NT, and that the modern English word for “priest” is derived from a Latinized contraction of Presbyter.

It goes against the grain of the new covenant , where we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit , being His temple. Why would I need a priest when I am the Temple ,and contain God inside me , as sure as you believe He is behind the veil in the tabernacle(Eucharist) ? …

Shall the clay say unto the Potter, why hast thou made me thus? It is not up to you to decide what you need, it is up to Jesus . He is the author and finisher of the faith. He is the one who builds the Church.

He is the one who appoints leaders and shepherds over us. If he did not think you needed them, He would not have set it up that way. Anyway, you gave the best answer yourself, by pointing out that we are fallible.

That we need order and “presidents” is a whole other issue. “President” is the earliest term in church writings of one presiding over a “mass”.

How is this a different issue? How do you think the presiders were selected? They did not use those who were not ordained.

 

[guanophore]

You gave a lot .May I focus momentarily on the best -which is above.This is how it should be .I just feel in practice you also have too much separation between priests and laity etc.

I think this is a separation that exists in your mind, David. The better question would be, why do YOU separate them? Perhaps as a youngster you felt separated, and you have never developed a more mature and adult understanding of the roles that exist in the Church?

Why do you put Christ in a monstrance or behind the veil up there on the altar , for only the priest to fetch , bring out, or ,transubstantiate ?

You don’t really believe that is Jesus, do you?

The priest never has, and never will, transubstantiate Christ. When you say things like this, it shows how little you understand the Catholic faith.

Has it ever occurred to you to find out what the Catholic Church really believes and teaches, instead of imposing your strange ideas onto it, then criticizing the fantasy you have created?

Don’t get it, when we are to be the monstrance ,his Temple. You should be able to go up to that altar, and reach for the Lord, thru that veil, and “bring Him out” for He is within you.

I see that you dont’ get it.

Somehow you see these realities to be in conflict with one another, when they are not.

Why did Jesus put mud on the eyes of the blind man? Why didn’t He just touch the man’s eyes with his finger? Why did He not just speak a Word?

Would the man’ have received His sight had he not followed Jesus instruction to go and wash?

 

[PRmerger]

I am not sure anyone says sex causes marriage .I think it may cause oneness ,at least temporarily ,and out of context ,not in faith ,which is all sinful.Marriage is a vow forever .Sex without it is sin .

This comment is very Catholic, david (with the exception of marriage being a vow “forever”–the marriage vow ends at death, otherwise it would be a sin for a widow/widower to re-marry). Thanks for sharing it!