Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[joe370]

Jesus never taught IC to apostles. No evidence that apostles taught it .It certainly was not official Catholic Dogma till 1854. For lack of better words , I classify I.C. as a “tradition” turned dogma, and with many centuries old customs celebrating it.

David, some examples of ECF’s (spanning from AD 235 to AD 733) - supporting the belief that Mary was in fact sinless. Why did they believe this if what you say is accurate?

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” "Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

“As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine,Nature and Grace,4236,in NPNF1,V:135 Augustine

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay” Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,180

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation” Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200

 

[david_ruiz]

My Church says abortion is murder. The church down the street says it is not. Who is right and why?

What does Jesus tell you ? He is alive and well , is He not ? Can He not enlighten you to what scripture says , to what nature says , to what this or that church says , to what fellow “Christians” say ? Jesus may say, “What is that to you if the church down the street have has not just neglected your church , my Words , but also my guidance and possibly Me, as a Savior and Lord, a million dollar mistake ,compared to missing out on a part of righteousness(abortion) ?”

 

[joe370]

My Church says abortion is murder. The church down the street says it is not. Who is right and why?

Sadly, from a sola scriptura standpoint, both can claim to be right.

 

[david_ruiz]

D

avid, some examples of ECF’s (spanning from AD 235 to AD 733) - supporting the belief that Mary was in fact sinless. Why did they believe this if what you say is accurate?

 

[david_ruiz]

Sadly, from a sola scriptura standpoint, both can claim to be right.

Is that the fault of Sola Scriptura ? Is that the fault of God speaking ? Cain and Abel disagreed . Is that the fault of God speaking ? The good news is that indeed that you and I know they are wrong because of scripture, revealed to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. They may have scripture , but not an unction from the Holy Ghost . It has nothing to do with aspiring to scripture as authoratative.That they misuse scripture ,does not taint scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

You exaggerate

Yes, of course. It was hyperbole to be sure.

But, it certainly provides a reality that could have existed if there were no pope, and each man could decide for himself “guided by the Holy Spirit” what date to celebrate Easter.

So, at maximum, it could be only 365 different choices for when to celebrate Easter.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Is that the fault of Sola Scriptura ? Is that the fault of God speaking ? Cain and Abel disagreed . Is that the fault of God speaking ? The good news is that indeed that you and I know they are wrong because of scripture, revealed to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. They may have scripture , but not an unction from the Holy Ghost . It has nothing to do with aspiring to scripture as authoratative.That they misuse scripture ,does not taint scripture.

So which church has the unction? Here is how to find out.

My Church says that man has no authority to destroy a marriage. Every other church claims that man does. Who is right?

 

[joe370]

Is that the fault of Sola Scriptura ? Is that the fault of God speaking ? Cain and Abel disagreed . Is that the fault of God speaking ? The good news is that indeed that you and I know they are wrong because of scripture, revealed to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. They may have scripture , but not an unction from the Holy Ghost . It has nothing to do with aspiring to scripture as authoratative.That they misuse scripture ,does not taint scripture.

No, it’s not the fault of sola scriptura; after all, scripture is the word of God; those who are responsible for the invention of the bible alone tradition, are to blame. They put the word of God, via individual interpretation, ahead of the authority of the church leadership, established by Jesus.

For example, it was the authority of the Catholic Church, as a council, that gave us the creeds and defined things such as the Trinity. If sola scriptura via individual interpretation, would have been the practice of the day back then, many more people today might have embraced Arianism; agreed?

 

[joe370]

Is that the fault of Sola Scriptura ? Is that the fault of God speaking ? Cain and Abel disagreed . Is that the fault of God speaking ? The good news is that indeed that you and I know they are wrong because of scripture, revealed to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. They may have scripture , but not an unction from the Holy Ghost . It has nothing to do with aspiring to scripture as authoratative.That they misuse scripture ,does not taint scripture.

I guess it comes down to one thing: which church leadership was given the authority (unction from the Holy Ghost) - to interpret scripture? Who was entrusted, by Jesus, to interpret the following passage, via the guidance of the holy spirit, regarding the forgiveness of sins: John 20:23? I know it wasn’t me brother. Sure, I can interpret scripture as I see fit, just as anyone can, but in the end, who or what was charged with the commission to ensure that scripture wasn’t/isn’t wrested out of context? We both agree, I think, that is was the Catholic Church from the 1st century to the 5th century - yes?

 

[1beleevr]

Original post: JL: Your scenario is sort of like discerning the canon and the trinity, that took at lest three hundred years.

You post, * Really what is your source for this? Can you give me names of these Orders and how many were killed? My bet is NO*.

I knew I would win my bet. It is my history of which you make a FALSE statement. Most people don’t know history, including YOU, to challenge a false statement. Well, WAS it the Dominicans & Augustinians, its your STROY, or was it one of your revelations from God. Yes there was DEBATE but show me were some were KILLED in 1870 when Vatican Council I defined Infallibility, you wont because you can’t, it’s FALSE?

By the way you didn’t answer my post, how do you KNOW when you receive one of YOUR revelations, it’s from God .
This post makes no sense at all!

 

[rinnie]

jlhargus;7433157:

JL: That still doesn’t answer how you know when God’s Spirit is bearing witness with your spirit. Why are there many highly educated,devout Catholics "scattering " out of Catholicism ? That is ,why with your unity and perfect “system” do you still have Catholic believers come to different beliefs on the pope or what is being born again etc ? There are only 2 or 3 ways to interpret Peter being a rock .or two ways to interpret forgiving sins.There are not thousands of views on this…There was much unity early on in the church , because things were simpler and in their origins .Just like Judaism was simple for Abraham ,and become more complicated with Moses ,and by the time of Jesus you had differing views -yet they were still “Jews” We have different views even sects ,but we are still “Christian”.Did you know all Christians were united in celebrating Easter .No one cared when you celebrated it ,just as long as you did .There was unity .Then came along a pope and caused division by forcing ALL Christians to celebrate on his chosen date ,even if it was against apostolic tradition of other churches.That is not the unity christ called for .That is only one example of forcing unity unnecessarily ,causing division. Catholic list of "how to"s probably closely matched the quantity of how to’s for the Pharisees of Jesus’s time.When you bring it down to the basics ,there are not thoudands of divisions .You have several branches in Catholicism . Orthodoxy has several, and Protestantism six or seven. Yes ,discern all things including diversity ,unity, but you can not use that to stop discerning every other big or little dogma that comes your way on IT"S OWN MERIT. Just because you believe you are "united "obediently does not relinquish your responsibility for discerning ALL things in YOUR Church . Just because you see our disunity in disobedience does not relinquish your responsibility to ANY truth we may put forward , by God’s grace .After all ,did God not use the uncircumcised Philistines or Babylonians for the GOOD of Israel ?

First of all how can you be a devout Catholic and then leave the Catholic Church? Makes no sense to me.

Secondly how can you blame the Church for the sins of others.

So to put it another way it is the fault of Christ that Judas betrayed him then??? Because did Judas not in a sense leave Jesus.

Next this one really blows my mind. How could the Pope cause division in other Churchs? And these other Church’s that have Apostolic Succession where did it come from? There was more then One Apostolic succession? Please show me this information.

Tell me when do you say the Pope CAME ALONG? What year would you say he appeared.

 

[rinnie]

What does Jesus tell you ? He is alive and well , is He not ? Can He not enlighten you to what scripture says , to what nature says , to what this or that church says , to what fellow “Christians” say ? Jesus may say, “What is that to you if the church down the street have has not just neglected your church , my Words , but also my guidance and possibly Me, as a Savior and Lord, a million dollar mistake ,compared to missing out on a part of righteousness(abortion) ?”

Jesus can do anything he wants. But before a person can be enlighted to scripture they must realize what it means first. It must be understood. That is why Jesus left us teachers.

WHy do you think that he left us the Bishops, Priests. and Pope etc if he wanted to do it on his own?

When one is enlighted to scripture they come to not only understand it, they begin to live it in their hearts and souls and it becomes a everyday way of life for them. And yes that come from God alone. But everyone can be taught scripture and still not obey. That is why we are in the mess we are in with the division.

People do not want to be enlighted by scripture, they want to turn it around to fit into their lives the way they want, not the way God says. Big difference.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;7431616:

What exactly is Catholic interpretation of this scripture? First of all the term protestant does not come from protesting your dogmas necessarily ,except maybe for one ,and that is the decree whereby you do not allow others to live out their faith differently from you .(Occurred some time around 1585 -Lutherans were basically outlawed ,after decades of failed toleration of dual faiths. The princes of "Lutheran " territories "Protested " losing their religious freedom , hence the coined term .

Good question .Just like today ,there are educated ,devout Catholics ,who at some point in their spiritual journey come to a different understanding of certain scriptures than their catechism ,than their own earlier beliefs.This happens on both sides of the fence.Well, it apparently happened down thru the ages .In Particular ,with regards to Peter having a successor ,Tertullian ,debated against it (see, there was actual debate back then WITHIN the Church ,especially with evolving ,dogmas). You are quite right though ,as soon as one departed from mainstream ,he may have been declared heretic. .But for instance, St.Jerome was not declared heretic when he denied the Assumption ,nor Aquinas on some Marion doctrine…One thing for sure , it is very difficult to dialogue when on believes that every last jot and title of their catechism would be written the same down to the first century , or to deny that indeed some dogma just plain old evolved over time ,and to deny that there were ANY contrary thoughts , by educated , devout Catholic brothers and saints during that “evolving.” (on SOME dogma,not all, please).
]This is very trivial , and unimportant except that it answers you daring question: early Church Father , author of the Latin bible used for 1000 years, said of Mary, mother of Jesus ,that “of her end no one knows” .This in contrast to those saying she "Assumed "up to heaven, and sits on her co-redemptrix throne,eventually declared dogma about 1600 years later.

Again you are mistaken. The Church is not mistaken on rather Mary was assumed up to heaven, they never had to declare that dogma until it was questioned many years later. It was always believed before that.

And the only thing the Church has ever said about Mary was they do not know if she officially died to this world as to a normal death as we have, or if she was just in a deep sleep. So they agreed that she fell asleep in Christ.

And as I told you before you can not be a devout Catholic and leave the Church and disagree with the teachings of the Church. If you begin to question and leave the teaching you become a fallen Catholic big fat difference.

 

[david_ruiz]

Sadly, from a sola scriptura standpoint, both can claim to be right.

Sadly you make authority of scripture the scapegoat.That is like me saying it,s Catholicicsms fault why my past Governor ,a devout Catholic ,is a democrat and obeys the law of the land yet does nothing to stop abortion ,and blocks every measure of restraint.Is that yor Churche"s fault.Is it your fault that the past head of our Planned Parenthood,was raised like me and went to Jesuit high school like me.a Catholic.Because someone misuuses their education ,their Church or the bible does not make those things culpible .What you want is a spiritual dictataorship to force everyone into the same mold. People coming out of your mold ,and mine, still rebel ,but let us not throw away our molds ,because you still get saints (and sinners)out of them. You have to knock out Sola Scriptura on some other grounds.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;7433488:

And as I told you before you can not be a devout Catholic and leave the Church and disagree with the teachings of the Church. If you begin to question and leave the teaching you become a fallen Catholic big fat difference.

Undertood .I did not mean that these souls remain Catholic ,only that they formulate , have revelation of different interpetations while they are still Catholic. AFTER that they probably leave ,or are forced out, depending on importance of the issue. Sorry if you misunderstood and that I did not say this explicitly.Good point…(e.g.- Luther was still very much a Catholic monk when he supposedly “posted” his 93 thesis for debate in that university town,as was the practice(posting) I understand).It was a bit after this that he was excomunicated,but not before.His revelations came to him while in the Catholic “mold”.

 

[Nicea325]

Sadly you make authority of scripture the scapegoat.That is like me saying it,s Catholicicsms fault why my past Governor ,a devout Catholic ,is a democrat and obeys the law of the land yet does nothing to stop abortion ,and blocks every measure of restraint.Is that yor Churche"s fault.Is it your fault that the past head of our Planned Parenthood,was raised like me and went to Jesuit high school like me.a Catholic.Because someone misuuses their education ,their Church or the bible does not make those things culpible .What you want is a spiritual dictataorship to force everyone into the same mold. People coming out of your mold ,and mine, still rebel ,but let us not throw away our molds ,because you still get saints (and sinners)out of them. You have to knock out Sola Scriptura on some other grounds.

Authority of scripture? Scripture is ONE source of authority,not THE final authority.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;7434568:

david ruiz;7433488:

Undertood .I did not mean that these souls remain Catholic ,only that they formulate , have revelation of different interpetations while they are still Catholic. AFTER that they probably leave ,or are forced out, depending on importance of the issue. Sorry if you misunderstood and that I did not say this explicitly.Good point…(e.g.- Luther was still very much a Catholic monk when he supposedly “posted” his 93 thesis for debate in that university town,as was the practice(posting) I understand).It was a bit after this that he was excomunicated,but not before.His revelations came to him while in the Catholic “mold”.

No david I do not think you do understand. Once you are a Catholic you are always a Catholic, but you are a fallen Catholic.

There is a difference to know the Catholic faith and refuse to accept it, and not know the Catholic faith at all.

Luther was indeed very educated the Catholic faith, but then he chose to fall from the faith and follow his own path. That would have made him a fallen Catholic.

Many people are baptised Catholic and that is the end of it. Any Catholic that truly studies and truly understands his faith would never leave the faith.

Although Luther had many gifts he somehow got lost and turned away from his faith. But it is sad because he was very educated in the faith.

And I know nothing about revelations that come to you while in a Catholic mold as you say it. But no revelations that go against the teaching of Christ come from Christ that I know for sure.

The Church teaches that there is no revelation, Jesus did it all, and told us all. Everything we need to know was revealed to us by Christ. Yes as time goes on we can learn more and more understanding of the revelation left for us by Christ. But that understanding come from Christ when he is ready to reveal it.

Why would scripture tell us not to turn away from our faith and teachings of the Church, and then turn around and write as Luther did? Luther was a fallen Catholic the moment he did what he did.

We all have free will to believe and do as we please. But there is a big difference to believe and do as we please and follow God and his teachings. That is where you either follow the teaching of the Church or you follow yourself.

Because there can only be ONE TRUTH. If not what would make my truth any more truth then your truth??? As you can see it would not and could not work, and time has shown not only could it or would it not work it HAS not worked.

 

[jlhargus]

JL: That still doesn’t answer how you know when God’s Spirit is bearing witness with your spirit. If you were correct why are there thousands of contenious faith groups claiming the same Spirit bearing witness with their spirit, USING the same scriptures, yet can’t agree? The Holy Spirit does not SCATER HE GATHERS THE PEOPLE OF GOD INTO ONE BODY.

Why are there many highly educated,**devout **Catholics "scattering " out of Catholicism ?

JL: Wouldn’t it be a contradiction to say they are devout and leave, doesn’t make sense??? I don’t know that is the case, you make alot of statements, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, which is evidence the statement is false. Are we just expected to accept your word, because you tell us you get revelation from God? If highly educated WERE leaving, there could be many reasons, or it could simply be a sign of the times. If there are highly educated leaving, I bet 99% just like you, knew little about the Catholic faith and even less about scripture. Also I would say MOST, of those HIGHLY educated or not highly educated, who do leave do not LEAVE to become Protestant, they simply leave all faiths behind. However the Church gets many converts including pastors from Protestantism. They’re not only highly educated but know scripture from begining to end. It’s seems Protestants, even not highly educated, who become Catholic know scripture and their old faith very well that’s what brings them into the Chruch. However most if not all Catholics who leave, like you, don’t know their old faith nor scripture.

That is ,why with your unity and perfect “system” do you still have Catholic believers come to different beliefs on the pope or what is being born again etc ?

JL: I’m glad you recognize our unity and PERFECT SYSTEM, Christ gave it to us. The Church has ONE TEACHING, if some willfully and knowing deny a teaching of the Church to follow there own teachings then they are heretics. If some hold contrary teachings thru no fault of thier own, it’s became they are simply mistaken or have been incorrectly taught or misunderstood the teaching.

Did you know all Christians were united in celebrating Easter .No one cared when you celebrated it ,just as long as you did .There was unity .Then came along a pope and caused division by forcing ALL Christians to celebrate on his chosen date ,even if it was against apostolic tradition of other churches.That is not the unity christ called for .That is only one example of forcing unity unnecessarily ,causing division.

JL: I also notice you have not told us the name of your faith group, so we can check YOUR history? Why, are you afraid of what we might find? I think that is dishonest and cowardly. Well you are partly right and partly wrong. I notice you are still MAKING STATEMENTs without EVIDENCE. I’ll give you a Catholic link, if you don’t trust it go a library. newadvent.org/cathen/05228a.htm

Catholic list of "how to"s probably closely matched the quantity of how to’s for the Pharisees of Jesus’s time.When you bring it down to the basics ,there are not thoudands of divisions .

JL: What are those how to’s, and how not to’s, I’m not aware of them? You post, When you bring it down to BASICS, there are not thousands of divisions. Then why are there thousands of contentious denominations or so called non-denomination denominations? What authority will bring it down to BASICS and what are those BASICS, who will decide what those BASICS are?

You have several branches in Catholicism

JL: There are different rights or Traditions of doing things such as different liturgy but the same mass. All are in union with the pope.

Protestantism six or seven.

JL: Look in a phone book. You may be able to fool some with that, but I WAS and have Protestant relatives. If you were on a Protestant forum. You would be trying to convince them they’re wrong and you’re right.

Yes ,discern all things including diversity ,unity, but you can not use that to stop discerning every other big or little dogma that comes your way on IT"S OWN MERIT. Just because you believe you are "united "obediently does not relinquish your responsibility for discerning ALL things in YOUR Church . Just because you see our disunity in disobedience does not relinquish your responsibility to ANY truth we may put forward , by God’s grace .After all ,did God not use the uncircumcised Philistines or Babylonians for the GOOD of Israel ?

JL: I have no idea what you are rambling about here? In your entire post, you have rambled and totally danced around the question,** how do you know when God is revealing somthing to you?** I posted scripture telling you how we know TRUTH from ERROR. Have you got any scripture, post it, and please stop rambling.

 

[joe370]

Dave, I am merely saying: when scripture becomes the final authority via private/individual interpretation, for all Christians, each and every Christian has the right to claim that he or she is right regarding his or her interpretation? For example, you read the bible and insist that the sacrament of confession is unbiblical and I read the bible and believe that it is biblical, and we both claim to be right, but neither of us were entrusted with the authority to interpret sacred scripture, and that is why I defer to the church founded by Jesus, just as Paul commanded in Hebrew; seems reasonable don’t you think?

Sadly you make authority of scripture the scapegoat.That is like me saying it,s Catholicicsms fault why my past Governor ,a devout Catholic ,is a democrat and obeys the law of the land yet does nothing to stop abortion ,and blocks every measure of restraint.Is that yor Churche"s fault.Is it your fault that the past head of our Planned Parenthood,was raised like me and went to Jesuit high school like me.a Catholic.Because someone misuuses their education ,their Church or the bible does not make those things culpible .What you want is a spiritual dictataorship to force everyone into the same mold. People coming out of your mold ,and mine, still rebel ,but let us not throw away our molds ,because you still get saints (and sinners)out of them. You have to knock out Sola Scriptura on some other grounds.

 

[david_ruiz]

Authority of scripture? Scripture is ONE source of authority,not THE final authority.

I stand corrected .You make Sola Scriptura ,a false dogma, from your perspective ,to blame , for why a Protestant church , supposedly claiming S…S., and thinks abortion is O.K. Have I got it right ? I think what you are trying to say is that if that church had to obey a Protetsant magisterium , with correct view on abortion , they would not be allowed to believe otherwise , and still remain Protestant, right ? That is how Catholicism works, right, a priest could not say abortion is O.K. and still hold on to his parish .I understand. The question then is making sure a magisterium has it right. Just having a magisterium , instead of Sola Scriptura, does mean you get ALL dogma correct . I understand your magistereium says it can not be wrong . Well, I was told you can not be your own “proof”, authority , that you need outside accountability to a "personal divine revelation. What you apply to protestants then should also be applied to your Magisterium. In itself it, can not say it is right . I know you have reasons why you think it is right , but to an outsider , say a Bhuddist , he may question when you say you are right because you are the only right church. Very circular ,self-justifying statement…Anyways, I get mad to at your system sometimes, for it has it’s charlatans too - Catholics who in practice support abortion .I am speaking of Catholic politicians I know of. They are not excommunicated. What have these Catholic politicians got wrong ? Is your Church ,magisterium to blame,like you blame Sola Sciptura ? …As I said before, your system or mine may not be to blame when someone just plain old says no to God’s spirit testifying thru a magisterium and or scripture that abortion is murder and that we should act accordingly.