Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[guanophore]

Sadly you make authority of scripture the scapegoat.

I don’t think there is a need for a scapegoat, David. If Catholic leaders had been living the gospel as they claimed to believe, there would never have been a need to create an idea like SS.

Scripture cannot weild authority, because the exercise of authority requires qualities that are only posessed of persons. The idea of forcing scripture into that role was good intenioned, but erroneous.

That is like me saying it,s Catholicicsms fault why my past Governor ,a devout Catholic ,is a democrat and obeys the law of the land yet does nothing to stop abortion ,and blocks every measure of restraint.

You are right that it is not correct to blame the Church for the sinful actions of those who have departed from her.

Is that yor Churche"s fault.Is it your fault that the past head of our Planned Parenthood,was raised like me and went to Jesuit high school like me.a Catholic.Because someone misuuses their education ,their Church or the bible does not make those things culpible .

I agree. There is some culpability in the poor catechesis and spiritual formation of such persons.

What you want is a spiritual dictataorship to force everyone into the same mold.

I don’t see how this follows.

But the Truth is non-negotiable.

People coming out of your mold ,and mine, still rebel ,but let us not throw away our molds ,because you still get saints (and sinners)out of them. You have to knock out Sola Scriptura on some other grounds.

Well, it is clearly a self refuting doctrine. No need for us to “knock it out”. The continued division and splitting it causes in the Body are a clear testimony to the kind of tree it is.

.I did not mean that these souls remain Catholic ,only that they formulate , have revelation of different interpetations while they are still Catholic.

I guess you one cannot technically fall away from a faith they never espoused.

AFTER that they probably leave ,or are forced out, depending on importance of the issue.

They have already excommunicated themselves by departing from the One Faith. They may be relieved of official duties, but no one is “forced out”. All are called to repentance and obedience to the faith. The door is always open to those who have falled away.

Luther was still very much a Catholic monk when he supposedly “posted” his 93 thesis for debate in that university town,as was the practice(posting) I understand).

No, he had left the monastery some time prior to that and held a teaching post. Possibly leaving his life as a monk is what later contributed to him committing adultery?

His views had also departed from Catholicity prior to that time. The thesis were his decision to pick a public fight about it. You are right,he did use a common method to do this.

It was a bit after this that he was excomunicated,but not before.His revelations came to him while in the Catholic “mold”.

Jesus and the Apostles were clear that there would be wolves among the sheep, so yes, there are some who have defected from the faith from within, priests and bishops among them. When a person renounces the One Faith, they automatically excommunicate themselves. At times, it is necessary for the Church to make an official statement this has happened.

 

[guanophore]

.You make Sola Scriptura ,a false dogma, from your perspective ,to blame ,

Yes. Heresy begets more errors and sins. That is why the Church is so committed to addressing it when it appears.

 I think what you are trying to say is that if that church had to obey a Protetsant magisterium , with correct view on abortion , they would not be allowed to believe otherwise , and still remain Protestant,  right ?

There are many Protestant ecclesial communities that have these sorts of rules. One has to espouse what is promulgated, or one no longer belongs. Is that a problem? Should not a faith community be allowed to make the rules for who belongs to them?

That is how Catholicism works, right, a priest could not say abortion is O.K. and still hold on to his parish .I understand.

I wish this were true. There would be a much more orthodox Church if a priest who taught error was corrected or removed more rapidly.

The question then is making sure a magisterium has it right. Just having a magisterium , instead of Sola Scriptura, does mean you get ALL dogma correct .

I agree. If Jesus is not the Head, and the HS is not the Soul, then it is not possible to be infallible. It is only the promises of God, not a group of people, that can “get it all correct”.

I understand your magistereium says it can not be wrong . Well, I was told you can not be your own “proof”, authority , that you need outside accountability to a "personal divine revelation. What you apply to protestants then should also be applied to your Magisterium. In itself it, can not say it is right . I know you have reasons why you think it is right , but to an outsider , say a Bhuddist , he may question when you say you are right because you are the only right church. Very circular ,self-justifying statement…

Yes, I see your point. I think, for people who reject what Jesus and the Scripture say about the Church, it does appear to be circular.

Anyways, I get mad to at your system sometimes, for it has it’s charlatans too - Catholics who in practice support abortion .I am speaking of Catholic politicians I know of. They are not excommunicated.

Yes, it is appropriate to be angry about sin, no matter who commits it. However, you are wrong. Such persons have excommunicated themselves. The act in itself triggers that excommunication. It seems like what you are wanting is a public flogging?

What have these Catholic politicians got wrong ? Is your Church ,magisterium to blame,like you blame Sola Sciptura ? …As I said before, your system or mine may not be to blame when someone just plain old says no to God’s spirit testifying thru a magisterium and or scripture that abortion is murder and that we should act accordingly.

Sometimes poor catechesis, formation, and discipline are to blame. But, I do agree with you, it is the responsibility of each person to avoid sin and walk in righteousness. Racing around placing blame really benefits no one.

 

[guanophore]

Devout means devoted to ,as to its faith and practices ,and yes loyalty.This is the opposite of a Catholic in name only ,not really practicing or believing ,and maybe ignorant of teaching.

I agree with your definition of devout as opposed to nominal.

Both types have left the church ,and found spiritual life in “other” churches .I would think you personally know people who fit these 2 scenarios (there are more).

I have only met one person who claimed to have been a devout Catholic and left. I met her here on CAF. I have always found it a mystery.

Would you say a nun or priest is a devout Catholic ? Most would say yeah , they have given there lives to Christ and His church -they are at least devout.

No, I think not! Yes, they did give their lives to Christ, but just like the rest of us who did the same, they may fall away from their devotion. There are priests, monks and nuns who have fallen away from their faith. They lose their devotion, then they lose their faith, then they formallly separate. That is what happened to Martin Luther.

What I was saying is that while in that Catholic station ,they somehow come to believe different interpretation of things , usually  some parts of scripture, and ponder them , while still serving Christ and His church. They begin to interpret differently what it means to serve Christ, and what it means to be loyal to his church , even what is really his Church etc. At some point they leave the church .I have been told they become a "fallen" catholic.

Yes, I think this is accurate. Jesus did promise there would be weeds among the wheat.

How can I blame your church when I do not view it as a sin that they listen to God also ,as they were taught to as Catholics ?

I don’t know? Why do you blame the Church?

I am just trying to say you can not blame Protetsantism ,or Sola Scriptura ,or a million other things when Catholics themselves get different interpretations, as Catholics.You can blame those things if a Catholic falls away from Catholicism (no longer devout or practicing) for whatever reason ,then years later they listen to “Luther “. Yes, blame” Luther”,SS etc. then. Don’t blame them when a nun simply reads her Catholic bible, or in meditation, comes to a different “light”–reading or listening to nothing of protestantism.

I am not interested in placing blame. If a Catholic is devout, when they read the bible and meditate, they will do so according to the Apostolic instruction.

 

[Protestant101]

The problem is that there is no speech, i.e. no forgiveness of sins, without the lungs, and the lungs are human.

If you believe Paul’s teaching about the Body of Christ, then you are Catholic or Orthodox. If you write it off as symbolic, then you are a Protestant.

One can “believe Paul’s teaching,” and still be Protestant. It’s just a case of the different ways of understanding it.

There are far more Bible texts to show people going to Jesus on their own and receiving forgiveness of sins directly from Jesus without any mediation by Priests or any other persons. I believe the Bible does not give Priests authority to forgive sins; rather it gives them a mandate to support and encourage people in coming to Jesus. And the reason I say this is because of a point I think we are both agreed on; that only Jesus can forgive our sins. Even when Jesus speaks through Priests Pastors or anyone else; it is never the human agent that does the forgiving; it is always Jesus.

Certainly; there is no Biblical support for the idea that it’s not true forgiveness, unless you go to a Catholic Priest for something you can do in your own living room by yourself.

 

[Protestant101]

There are many Protestant ecclesial communities that have these sorts of rules. One has to espouse what is promulgated, or one no longer belongs. Is that a problem? Should not a faith community be allowed to make the rules for who belongs to them?

Yes, it is appropriate to be angry about sin, no matter who commits it. However, you are wrong. Such persons have excommunicated themselves. The act in itself triggers that excommunication. It seems like what you are wanting is a public flogging?

Sometimes poor catechesis, formation, and discipline are to blame. But, I do agree with you, it is the responsibility of each person to avoid sin and walk in righteousness. Racing around placing blame really benefits no one.

Well said.

 

[Dokimas]

IMO, every true Christian has the right and responsibility to share the truth that Jesus is the Only Mediator between sinners and God. We have the right and responsibility to share the truth that Jesus is the Only One that has the power to forgive sins because only God can do so AND because He paid for that right with His Blood.

 

[Farsight001]

guanophore;7437232:

No. In spite of disunity truth can come forth.

False

If you don’t believe that God sometimes uses the ungodly for his purpose, then I have to ask - was Judas actually holy, or was Jesus’ betrayal and execution not actually part of God’s purpose?

 

[benedictus2]

No. In spite of disunity truth can come forth.

But how do you know what is true?

False

Nope you’re the one who is wrong. Just read the Bible. There are many ungodly whom God has used to bring about His purpose.

 

[benedictus2]

IMO, every true Christian has the right and responsibility to share the truth that Jesus is the Only Mediator between sinners and God.

Yes He is but he gave the power to some men. The apostles of themselves were unable to forgive sins, but because of the power He bestowed upon them, they are able to.

We have the right and responsibility to share the truth that Jesus is the Only One that has the power to forgive sins because only God can do so AND because He paid for that right with His Blood.

But Jesus Himself delegated that power. So you are saying Jesus made the error when He told His apostles : “whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven and whosoever sins you retain they are retained?”

 

[benedictus2]

The question then is making sure a magisterium has it right. Just having a magisterium , instead of Sola Scriptura, does mean you get ALL dogma correct . I understand your magistereium says it can not be wrong .

No it’s not the magisterium who said that but Jesus. He said the gates of hell will not prevail and He also promised that His Church will be led into all truth.

Well, I was told you can not be your own “proof”, authority , that you need outside accountability to a "personal divine revelation.

Jesus is the Personal Divine Revelations that is our outside authority.

But just think about htis David, if you believe the Bible, since the it was the Catholic Church that defined the Canon, then you tacitly approve of this dogma of infallibility.

Because if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then there is a good chance the Bible is not inerrant either.

What you apply to protestants then should also be applied to your Magisterium. In itself it, can not say it is right .

We only know it is right, based on Jesus promise. And we only know that Jesus kept that promise because we know He is God.

If you believe that Jesus is God then you will know also that the magisterium will proclaim the truth because Christ guaranteed that.

I know you have reasons why you think it is right , but to an outsider , say a Bhuddist , he may question when you say you are right because you are the only right church. Very circular ,self-justifying statement…

Yes, that is true. You cannot use the Bible when discussing with a Buddhist. But when discussing with a Christian, it ceases to be circular reasoning because we both accept the Bible to be infallible.

.Anyways, I get mad to at your system sometimes, for it has it’s charlatans too - Catholics who in practice support abortion .I am speaking of Catholic politicians I know of. They are not excommunicated.

Politicians who support abortion are not excommunicated because I don’t think one excommunicates simply because of sin. If this is so then there would be no one left in the Church.

However, those who teach error should be excommunicated because they can lead others away from the truth.

What have these Catholic politicians got wrong ? Is your Church ,magisterium to blame,like you blame Sola Sciptura ? …As I said before, your system or mine may not be to blame when someone just plain old says no to God’s spirit testifying thru a magisterium and or scripture that abortion is murder and that we should act accordingly.

Those who do not like the magisterium and follow SS dislike the magisterium because they prefer being the magisterium themselves. That is what SS is all about, that the person is the magisterium.

I think Luther said that he does not fear the pope because he has within him the great the pope, Self.

So as someone rightly pointed out, SS and SF all mean SE - Sola Ego.

 

[joe370]

No one. God is His own interpreter, thru the Holy Spirit. He talks to us .Are we not spiritual beings ? Did He not walk and talk with Adam in the garden ? Did Adam need an interpreter ? Do we not have the same because of the second Adam and Eve ,in Christ, the same privelege and phenomenem ? Of talking with Him ? Is not this in our tradition and bibles ? Can you imagine , God speaks to you and you say , no, no don’t speak to me but tell it to me thru Peter and or His successor. To make sure you are not off your rocker , The Holy Spirit will confirm with His written Word.

So God is His own interpreter, on earth, through the Holy Spirit, by talking and guiding each and every Christian (you and me for example) - to understand the truths taught by Jesus?

 

[Padraig1972]

Yes, they can. What does this require of me as catholic when i have confessed my sins? To sincerely do what i am asked to do as penance and strive to learn from my mistakes-sins and work to improve as a human being on day to day basis and avoid to repeat my mistakes.

Obedience, prayers, love and always care for your next.

 

[joe370]

Just quicky it’s late --you deserve better but A church can start out on fire and grow cold ,and many other scenarios .read the Letters to the seven churches in revelations.As you must know , this is not a problem to protestants. The church began well , kept some things well ,changed a few things , added a few things , with voices of reform at most every step .Reform is perfect example of Christ keeping his promise to be with us to the end. But the seven churches is a good start.

Okeydoke, but I am still attempting to understand things from your perspective.

So Jesus did not leave the world with a universal way for all Christians, regardless of denomination, to know the truth regarding His teachings, such as confession?

Do you agree with the following:

As a former non-Catholic, I eventually learned the canon of Scripture was determined by the CC councils.

The CC via council, defined the 2 Natures of Christ: dogmatized in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. Further controversies over whether Christ had one of two wills ensued, and this went on for a few centuries more.

The CC via council, defined original sin, which is not found in scripture: this was finalized in dogma so late that it wasn’t even part of the Nicene Creed; the ECF’s wrote much more about purgatory than original sin.

If so, then why trust that the catholic church, via council, got it right about those things and disbelieve that the CC got it right about things such as the sacrament of confession?

 

[joe370]

A quick story .A young Chinamen when to the old sage and said ," I want to know truth". The sage took him to a nearby river, and they waded in . The sage then took the young lad and held him under water , and continued to do so . The young lad held out as long as he could and after a fierce struggle, was allowed up , desperately gasping for air. The wise man asked ,"What is it that you wanted when I continued to hold you under ? " The young lad answered, "Just one thing finally. I wanted AIR ! " .“Good ! Now, when you want truth the same way, you shall find it”, said the sage.

Okay, but, as I asked before: does the HS guide you to believe one thing about confession and me to believe the exact opposite?

Did Jesus leave the world with a way to know, with certainty, (via the guidance of the holy spirit) - the truth about the sacrament of confession or the Eucharist or any other teaching with more than one interpretation, in your opinion?

 

[Dokimas]

Yes He is but he gave the power to some men. The apostles of themselves were unable to forgive sins, but because of the power He bestowed upon them, they are able to.

But Jesus Himself delegated that power. So you are saying Jesus made the error when He told His apostles : “whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven and whosoever sins you retain they are retained?”

As you know, Jesus doesn’t make errors. We make errors in our understanding of the Truth Jesus proclamed. That includes ALL other humans.

 

[Dokimas]

The Bible doesn’t say the church is infallible, you say your church is infallible. You may be correct and you may be incorrect.

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible doesn’t say the church is infallible, you say your church is infallible. You may be correct and you may be incorrect.

---

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture***
Originally posted by Randy Carson

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

 

[joe370]

The Bible doesn’t say the church is infallible, you say your church is infallible. You may be correct and you may be incorrect.

That’s because the leaders of the CC are not infallible or impeccable; nor were the apostles. The holy spirit is infallible though, but I don’t think that you believe that the HS continues to guide the CC; is that correct?

Do you think that it is the common held belief among non-Catholics that the holy spirit guided the apostles to all truth, as per John 16:13, who then committed all truth to sacred scripture, at which point the holy spirit ceased to continue to safeguard, in Jesus’ church, the correct interpretation of all truth, in sacred scripture?

 

[joe370]

Very compelling post; seems rather impossible to argue against that scriptural logic, other than suggesting that the Catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus, which is not at all a credible thing to suggest.

---

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture***
Originally posted by Randy Carson

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

 

[PRmerger]

Very compelling post; seems rather impossible to argue against that scriptural logic, other than suggesting that the Catholic church is not the church founded by Jesus, which is not at all a credible thing to suggest.

Yes, and I want to make sure that all credit goes to poster Randy Carson for writing that compelling post. :bowdown: