Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[joe370]

Yes, and I want to make sure that all credit goes to poster Randy Carson for writing that compelling post. :bowdown:

Absolutely she, who is not a he. LOL…LOL…

 

[benedictus2]

As you know, Jesus doesn’t make errors. We make errors in our understanding of the Truth Jesus proclamed. That includes ALL other humans.

Well then, explain what Jesus meant then with regards giving the apostles the power to forgive sins. He could not be clearer with what he said there.

 

[david_ruiz]

So God is His own interpreter, on earth, through the Holy Spirit, by talking and guiding each and every Christian (you and me for example) - to understand the truths taught by Jesus?

He helps to understand the things taught by yes Himself( Jesus) ,and taught by His word (Scripture) and by our teachers, and prophets, and pastors, and bishops, and parents, by councils, by magisteriums ,in short , I have not heard there is anything He does not know. As with Peter who I believe was regenerated (born again) at or before His statement of Jesus being messiah. The father in heaven revealed this to him ,not flesh and blood,not a church ,not a magisterium ,not a head rabbi.In fact Scripture by itself and even jesus by Himself did not do this .The father discerned all things for Peter to make his famous pronouncement,"Thou art the son of the living God ". The Father I imagine illumined Peter on his religion ,magisterium ,any rabbinical teaching , any biblical teaching,and on Jesus 's words and actions that pointed to that climactic truth. He cut thru all the “stuff-”-good and bad ,to find the gold. Why would He expect any less from and for us ? Bottom line- if you are born again ,He will guide you into all truth also, according to His grace (for Paul did not know everything , he said we see thru a glass clouded, for now)…There is no avoiding the myriad of possibilities on truth, as Peter had a few choices also . He had a few interpretations to choose from as to who the Lord was at that point .The rabbis thought they had the market cornered on truth , after all they were One ( a nation separate for God) , and Holy (separated for His purpose) ,with succession right back to Father Abraham.They were the light of the world ,a pillar of truth amongst heathen gentiles. As a whole they dropped the ball , but Jehovah was faithful to His promises to them, and kept a remnant at all times to carry the true spirit of His torch ,and finally delivered the Messiah to the world , hence, “Salvation is of the Jews” I ramble ,but yes, He is his own interpreter and is doing just fine , and is in no need of flesh and blood for that sacred purpose.

 

[joe370]

Dave, you said: Bottom line- if you are born again , He will guide you into all truth.

So I am right about the sacrament of confession since the HS guided me into all truth, to believe this?

 

[Dokimas]

---

The Infallibility of the Catholic Church Proved from Scripture***
Originally posted by Randy Carson

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

Thank you for sharing your understanding of these Scriptures.

 

[Dokimas]

That’s because the leaders of the CC are not infallible or impeccable; nor were the apostles. The holy spirit is infallible though, but I don’t think that you believe that the HS continues to guide the CC; is that correct?

Do you think that it is the common held belief among non-Catholics that the holy spirit guided the apostles to all truth, as per John 16:13, who then committed all truth to sacred scripture, at which point the holy spirit ceased to continue to safeguard, in Jesus’ church, the correct interpretation of all truth, in sacred scripture?

You’re making a false assumption about what I believe.

IMO, you’re making a false connection between the work and ability of the Holy Spirit and infalibility of the church.

As you’ve pointed out, the members of the church are fallible. As you point out, the Holy Spirit is infallible. The Holy Spirit does His job in spite of us.

 

[Dokimas]

The following verses suggest that the Catholic Church is protected by God from ever teaching error in matters of faith and morals, and questions concerning each verse are provided as food for thought.

Suggest is a loaded word.

I agree God protect His universal church. That doesn’t make the CC or any other church infallible.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Q: If Jesus promised to build his own church and that Church ever fell into doctrinal error, would this mean that a) Jesus was a liar, b) Jesus did not have the power to protect his own church, or c) Jesus was incompetent as a church builder?

IMO, you’re making a wrong conclusions from this verse. For example, Israel made mistake after mistake and wandered far from God yet God protected them as He said He would. Look what happened in the 1940’s. The beauty of God’s grace is that He protect His church in spite of the weaknesses (which would include at least misunderstandings and sin) of those that make up the church.

Q: If the Church has the authority to bind and loose on earth in a manner that is also true in heaven, then assuming that there is no error in heaven, can the Church err on earth?

Authority does not mean infallibility. All who get to Heaven will, in Heaven never sin again, IMO. Yet, they sin here from time to time. You seem to make a wrong conclusion again.

Matthew 28:20
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error at any time during the nearly 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation, did Jesus remain with the Church “always”?

Wrong assumptions again. Did God forsake David when David strayed far from God? No because God saw his heart. That’s the beauty of God’s grace and mercy. BTW, the universal church of Jesus Christ if far larger than the CC, IMO.

Luke 10:16
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Q: If the Church speaks with such authority that those who hear the Church are actually hearing Christ and such that anyone who rejects the words of the Church are rejecting Christ Himself, can the Church ever be allowed to speak error on behalf of Jesus?

Wrong assumption again, IMO. Jesus is the only infallible speaker. However He speaks through us. We aren’t infallible, and we make up His church. Again, in spite of us, Jesus shows HIs love for the lost and dieing world by using sinners to proclaim the Gospel. That’s the real world we live in.

John 14:15-16
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Q: If the Church fell into doctrinal error, would this indicate that Jesus did not give the Counselor or that the Counselor simply failed to remain with the Church “forever”?

Reading carefully we see our part: obey. There’s a connection between obeying and the Holy Spirit being able to do His job. Jesus doesn’t promise He’ll make the church obedient.

John 14:18
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Q: If the Church ever fell into doctrinal error, did Jesus actually leave us as “orphans” during all that time?

Jesus didn’t say ‘If you believe and teach and act 100% correct 100% of the time, I’ll make sure you are not left alone as orphans.’ He fulfills His promises in spite of us. That’s what grace and mercy is all about.

John 14:26
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Q: Despite this promise, did the Holy Spirit fail to teach the Church “all things” or to remind the Church of the things that Jesus had said to the Apostles?

Again, the Holy Spirit will do as Jesus promised. This doesn’t mean we’ll always understand. We’re fallible humans. This points to the beauty of God’s mercy and grace.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Q: Did the Holy Spirit fail to guide the Church into all truth?

No. Sheep don’t always do what they should. That’s why the Good Shepherd has a rod and staff.

 

[Dokimas]

Now, consider the following three verses:

1 John 4:4
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 Timothy 3:13
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Mark 3:27
27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.

Q: Is Satan stronger than Jesus, is the Church the household of God, and can Satan rob the Church of the deposit of truth by “binding” Jesus in any way?

No Satan is not stronger than Jesus and I don’t believe he is no matter how you look at my understanding of the infallibility of the church.

In light of the above, is it possible that the Church fell into doctrinal error? Taken individually, each of these verses creates a problem for those that assert that the Church “went off the rails” at some point in history. Taken as a whole, they portray Christ’s own involvement in building, nurturing and protecting His Church until the end of time. The Catholic Church remains strong and vibrant – not by her own efforts or innate qualities – but because God Himself is leading and guiding her to ensure that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.”

If your understanding of the above Scriptures is incorrect, then the answer is 'we, the church of Jesus the Christ, fall into error from time to time. By His grace and mercy, Jesus won’t let us be overtaken by the enemy. Jesus will protect us in spite of ourselves.

BTW, those wonderful verses don’t create any such problems. Jesus does His ‘job’ in spite of us. Our part is to follow Him. Let’s stop worrying about each others understanding and weaknesses and follow Him. Let’s stop putting each other down and preach the Gospel to a lost and dieing world.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If your understanding of the above Scriptures is incorrect, then the answer is 'we, the church of Jesus the Christ, fall into error from time to time. By His grace and mercy, Jesus won’t let us be overtaken by the enemy. Jesus will protect us in spite of ourselves.

Clearly all of the churches teach different doctrines and the Holy Spirit would not contradict Himself. So how do you know if you are believing the right things as is necessary to be saved?

BTW, those wonderful verses don’t create any such problems. Jesus does His ‘job’ in spite of us. Our part is to follow Him. Let’s stop worrying about each others understanding and weaknesses and follow Him. Let’s stop putting each other down and preach the Gospel to a lost and dieing world.

What is the Gospel and how do you know that it is not a new and different gospel? Everyone who picks up a Bible comes to different conclusions. You cannot sweep these matters under the rug and just start evangelizing when you don’t even know what to say.

 

[PRmerger]

Suggest is a loaded word.

Doki, all verses in Scripture *suggest *something. In fact, everything we write suggests something. I’m suggesting something right here!

I agree God protect His universal church. That doesn’t make the CC or any other church infallible.

God protects His universal church…from* what?*

The answer is: He protects His universal Church from preaching error.

Authority does not mean infallibility.

Ok. But then we are agreed that the Church has the final authority, not Scripture?

BTW, the universal church of Jesus Christ if far larger than the CC, IMO.

Yes. If you are baptized with water, in the Trinitarian formula, then you are part of the Body of Christ, the Church.

Wrong assumption again, IMO. Jesus is the only infallible speaker.

But you do believe that those who are the inspired writers of Scripture had the charism of infallibility, at least when they committed God’s Revelation to paper, yes?

 

[Dokimas]

Clearly all of the churches teach different doctrines and the Holy Spirit would not contradict Himself. So how do you know if you are believing the right things as is necessary to be saved?

The Holy Spirit does NOT, of course contradict Himself. We are the problem when what we believe/teach is not exactly accurate.

What is the Gospel and how do you know that it is not a new and different gospel? Everyone who picks up a Bible comes to different conclusions. You cannot sweep these matters under the rug and just start evangelizing when you don’t even know what to say.

A good place to start is 1 Corinthians 15:1ff. That’s a good place to start to understand the Gospel.

BTW, most, if not all, evangelicals believe the same things with respect to what the Gospel includes. Remember, it’s ultimately the Holy Spirit’s job to draw people to Jesus. He knows the Gospel perfectly and can speak it to the hearts that are open.

 

[Dokimas]

Doki, all verses in Scripture *suggest *

something. In fact, everything we write suggests something. I’m suggesting something right here!

The Bible tells, not suggests, IMO. Where it seems to suggest must be where we aren’t clear and apply logic to try to understand.

God protects His universal church…from* what?*

 

[Farsight001]

IMO, they were not infallible. God used there voices and their writings for His Word. It’s His Word that is infallible, not the vessel He used or uses.

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible tells, not suggests, IMO Where it seems to suggest must be where we aren’t clear and apply logic to try to understand.

This is a non-Biblical thing you’re professing. You’ve not read that in any pages of Scripture, Doki.

Could you share the verse or verse that specifically teach that?

Firstly you need to state what your position is. You said the HS protects the church. I asked, “Protects it from what?”

The CC proclaims that the HS protects her from proclaiming as true that which is error.

You say, what? The HS protects the church from _____??

 

[PRmerger]

Well, of course. But God uses the Church in order to proclaim His authority. Just like God is the Creator, but God uses *people **to create babies.

If God was the God of formulas, wouldn’t Jesus have healed every blind person exactly the same way? God won’t be put in our box. Remember, God will save whom He will save without our permission or formulas.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have been following this post on and off…I met some Protestants who came into RCIA. The wife was particularly being drawn in a very strong way. She was Lutheran, her husband Episcopalian.

The hard part was going to Fr for confession. I had to chuckle to myself in regards to the great grace of confession and how the Lord works on the penitent…the couple both looked at the pastor from the point of human understanding instead of faith, with skepticism and uncertainty.

They eventually went forward and became members of the Catholic Church. I joked with them about the confession part, and they are very happy now.

You can debate and argue and dispute. But when one finally experiences absolution, one does not even focus on the priest, but on the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ Who comes upon the penitent with much grace, healing, strength, and new life…made anew.

 

[joe370]

That’s because the leaders of the CC are not infallible or impeccable; nor were the apostles. The holy spirit is infallible though, but I don’t think that you believe that the HS continues to guide the CC; is that correct?

You’re making a false assumption about what I believe.

My bad. So you do believe that the HS continues to guide the catholic church?

IMO, you’re making a false connection between the work and ability of the Holy Spirit and infalibility of the church.

We already agreed that no one in the CC is infallible.

 

[1beleevr]

Okay, I’m going to step on some toes, but here goes. Whether you believe that 21st century priests can forgive sins on earth, is a matter of faith! If one BELIEVES that John 20:20-23 is interpreted as Jesus endowing the disciples with the power to forgive sins, and believe that these modern day priests have been properly chosen and ordained by God, that there is no disruption in the chain of so called apostolic succession! A lot to believe!

 

[david_ruiz]

Dave, you said: Bottom line- if you are born again , He will guide you into all truth.

So I am right about the sacrament of confession since the HS guided me into all truth, to believe this?

The way you put it ,and how some people are very technical ,no, He will not lead you into all truth ,on this side of heaven (no one ,nothing will). I am born again ,and I do not know everything, like when He is coming back ,or why he allows this or that to happen .As I said even Paul saw thru a glass darkly .Yet what we are to know , He teaches us .What we do know , is from Him. I also mentioned the 4 soils ,and there is maturity ,and other things that come into play ,as to just how much the Lord will tell ,reveal,confirm .But for sure ,you must be born again to just begin to see the kingdom. From there we grow in Him…As far as you personally, well are you born again , and just what is born again ? Did you ask the Lord to show you ,from scripture ,from your church AND from my church ? I have only heard two main possibilities. Only He knows if one wants confirmation of an existing thought, or whether one is totally sold out to finding truth ,no matter where it takes you.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, I’m going to step on some toes, but here goes. Whether you believe that 21st century priests can forgive sins on earth, is a matter of faith! If one BELIEVES that John 20:20-23 is interpreted as Jesus endowing the disciples with the power to forgive sins, and believe that these modern day priests have been properly chosen and ordained by God, that there is no disruption in the chain of so called apostolic succession! A lot to believe!

Can it be any harder than to believe that a Divine Being became incarnate?

Or that the universe was created out of nothing?

Or that there are 3 persons in One God?